NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[Jmoose]

BBM1: I wish they had a website, but if they do, I sure haven't been able to find it. Information about their past searches would be such good info to have. The only contact info I found was for DC, who runs it. It appears to be home contact info, so I shy away from using it. Perhaps LE is aware of where they've searched? They must be.

BBM2: In NJ, when there's a construction project of this scale, the DEP and Historic Preservation & Museum Commission put the construction project applicant through all kinds of hoops where excavation is concerned. At least one reason is that they consider these kinds of projects opportunities to find things of archeological significance, like evidence of prehistoric camp sites. There are procedures surrounding the early stages of excavation -- it's like an exploratory dig, run by state experts -- and if they find anything, the project can be slowed considerably because the goal of this "intervention" is to preserve any ancient remains or artifacts that are found. These kinds of things are also watched by university archeologists ... all waiting for the next big find.

I don't know how this is handled in New York. But we do often hear in the news about skeletal remains being found at construction sites so the possibility must be one someone's radar. While it's not a sure thing, I think there's a good chance that the disturbance of these 200 acres means SL's body was not there. This was only 15 years after SL's disappearance -- does anyone know what the level of decomposition would be after 15 years with an unprotected earthen burial? I am thinking the remains would be large and noticeable, but I don't actually know.

I think in most places, before construction commences on large projects, at least, they do hire archaeologist to do a "dig"; I would think that because of Staten Island's history as a home for Paleo Indians, and for Revolutionary War combatants, that they would have done so. The problem with these digs, though, is that the developers or builders hire companies who employ archaeologists who work toward the goal of not finding anything of historical significance (not university professors or other people who might be able to delay the work they want to do). I don't know if that means that they don't do an extensive dig, or if they carefully report the findings as insignificant. In any event, as Skeet said, it's a lot of area to search.

Does anyone know what the deal with the tunnels at that site is? What were they used for? There couldn't be anything to find within the tunnels, but I wonder if "Friends of Jennifer" used the tunnels as jumping off points, to search on either end?

 

[Jmoose]

I wonder how much additional construction was done since 1993 when the College of Staten Island opened that campus? We hear occasionally about remains being found at construction sites, but I would guess that sometimes remains can be missed. After 15 years, I would think that there would be skeletal remains left, intact or not, but nothing else.

 

[alliemay]

It is absolutely possible that remains could be overlooked while doing construction, and as you said, quite a large space to search for remains-kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack, I would think. I have always thought that Sylvia is still someplace on Staten Island, and not 2 1/2 hours away. To that end, I sent a note to Donna Cotugno of "Friends of Jennifer Schweiger", to tell her of Sylvia's disappearance, and to ask how and where they search, but have received no answer.

I agree with you, I think she is still someplace on Staten Island.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think in most places, before construction commences on large projects, at least, they do hire archaeologist to do a "dig"; I would think that because of Staten Island's history as a home for Paleo Indians, and for Revolutionary War combatants, that they would have done so. The problem with these digs, though, is that the developers or builders hire companies who employ archaeologists who work toward the goal of not finding anything of historical significance (not university professors or other people who might be able to delay the work they want to do). I don't know if that means that they don't do an extensive dig, or if they carefully report the findings as insignificant. In any event, as Skeet said, it's a lot of area to search.

Does anyone know what the deal with the tunnels at that site is? What were they used for? There couldn't be anything to find within the tunnels, but I wonder if "Friends of Jennifer" used the tunnels as jumping off points, to search on either end?

BBM1: I think that's exactly why university types and historic groups tend to watch these things. Skepticism aside, though, I've seen artifacts recovered, and operations interminably delayed, as a result of these operations. In NJ, an entire dinosaur was unearthed this way in Trenton! And I have seen prehistoric human artifacts found across the river in PA.

BBM2: I think when they do the initial engineering survey, they take into consideration the portions of the site that have seen the least disturbance over time and any documentation about the history of the site, then do samplings of the areas that are most likely to yield artifacts. So to your point, it's not as thorough as an actual dig might be, unless artifacts are found. That in and of itself may be one reason for the skepticism: Not finding anything in a sample doesn't mean there's nothing there.

As I said, it's not a sure thing. But knowing that these things bring out watchers, and that there are so many people working the site in so many different capacities -- does reduce the chances of her still being there (IMO), especially because she'd be likely to be near the top? LE may even have been watching too, right? This was 1989 -- Alice Pereira (1972), Holly Hughes (1981), and Tiahese Jackson (1983) were all missing/unrecovered -- and Rand and his "playground" were on LE's radar. Jennifer Schweiger (1987) had even been found on the site.

BBM3: I'm curious about this too. I wonder if there's a map of them somewhere? It may not be public for security reasons. It's not unusual at hospitals to have tunnels between buildings so that doctors and other personnel can keep going in bad weather and other emergencies. (Where my daughter went to med school, they have them; they aren't as creepy as they sound -- they're paved tiled, ceilinged.) Why do you think there couldn't be anything to find there? If Rand used these to get around, it seems to me there might be, depending on how remote/accessible they are.

 

[alliemay]

Quote: Jmoose - "Does anyone know what the deal with the tunnels at that site is? What were they used for? There couldn't be anything to find within the tunnels, but I wonder if "Friends of Jennifer" used the tunnels as jumping off points, to search on either end?"

According to Wikipedia, Willowbrook was designed after the Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island, but I didn't find any reference to the tunnels.

"Pilgrim State Hospital is mentioned in the 2009 documentary movie Cropsey, as having reportedly housed the mother of convicted child kidnapper Andre Rand.[6] One of Andre's supposed victims, Jennifer Schweiger, was found buried in a shallow grave behind the grounds of the abandoned Willowbrook State School which was built under the same design as Pilgrim State Hospital."

If Willowbrook's design was fashioned after Pilgrim Hospital, I wonder if Pilgrim also had these tunnels?....I would guess if Rand was familiar with Pilgrim, he would have felt very comfortable taking a job at Willowbrook.

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: I think that's exactly why university types and historic groups tend to watch these things. Skepticism aside, though, I've seen artifacts recovered, and operations interminably delayed, as a result of these operations. In NJ, an entire dinosaur was unearthed this way in Trenton! And I have seen prehistoric human artifacts found across the river in PA.

BBM2: I think when they do the initial engineering survey, they take into consideration the portions of the site that have seen the least disturbance over time and any documentation about the history of the site, then do samplings of the areas that are most likely to yield artifacts. So to your point, it's not as thorough as an actual dig might be, unless artifacts are found. That in and of itself may be one reason for the skepticism: Not finding anything in a sample doesn't mean there's nothing there.

As I said, it's not a sure thing. But knowing that these things bring out watchers, and that there are so many people working the site in so many different capacities -- does reduce the chances of her still being there (IMO), especially because she'd be likely to be near the top? LE may even have been watching too, right? This was 1989 -- Alice Pereira (1972), Holly Hughes (1981), and Tiahese Jackson (1983) were all missing/unrecovered -- and Rand and his "playground" were on LE's radar. Jennifer Schweiger (1987) had even been found on the site.

BBM3: I'm curious about this too. I wonder if there's a map of them somewhere? It may not be public for security reasons. It's not unusual at hospitals to have tunnels between buildings so that doctors and other personnel can keep going in bad weather and other emergencies. (Where my daughter went to med school, they have them; they aren't as creepy as they sound -- they're paved tiled, ceilinged.) Why do you think there couldn't be anything to find there? If Rand used these to get around, it seems to me there might be, depending on how remote/accessible they are.

It makes me happy to know that sometimes the development is delayed indefinitely because of what they find-my skepticism arises from some digs done in Westchester County NY, where I know the digs were given short-shrift (a golf course in my town comes to mind, as well as several other sites nearby�&#56871. That bothers me so much, although I understand that every place in the US can't be designated as archaeologically significant...).

You would certainly think that much care would have been taken at the site of the Willowbrook School-I hope they did. It isn't possible for them to have covered the whole property, though. In any case, I don't think that's where Sylvia ended up unless Rand is the perpetrator-he seems to be the only one bold enough to do something there

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: I think that's exactly why university types and historic groups tend to watch these things. Skepticism aside, though, I've seen artifacts recovered, and operations interminably delayed, as a result of these operations. In NJ, an entire dinosaur was unearthed this way in Trenton! And I have seen prehistoric human artifacts found across the river in PA.

BBM2: I think when they do the initial engineering survey, they take into consideration the portions of the site that have seen the least disturbance over time and any documentation about the history of the site, then do samplings of the areas that are most likely to yield artifacts. So to your point, it's not as thorough as an actual dig might be, unless artifacts are found. That in and of itself may be one reason for the skepticism: Not finding anything in a sample doesn't mean there's nothing there.

As I said, it's not a sure thing. But knowing that these things bring out watchers, and that there are so many people working the site in so many different capacities -- does reduce the chances of her still being there (IMO), especially because she'd be likely to be near the top? LE may even have been watching too, right? This was 1989 -- Alice Pereira (1972), Holly Hughes (1981), and Tiahese Jackson (1983) were all missing/unrecovered -- and Rand and his "playground" were on LE's radar. Jennifer Schweiger (1987) had even been found on the site.

BBM3: I'm curious about this too. I wonder if there's a map of them somewhere? It may not be public for security reasons. It's not unusual at hospitals to have tunnels between buildings so that doctors and other personnel can keep going in bad weather and other emergencies. (Where my daughter went to med school, they have them; they aren't as creepy as they sound -- they're paved tiled, ceilinged.) Why do you think there couldn't be anything to find there? If Rand used these to get around, it seems to me there might be, depending on how remote/accessible they are.[/QUOTE]

BBM-I only say that because I assumed that the tunnels would have been extensively searched, and that there wouldn't be many places in them to hide something/somebody

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Jmoose - "Does anyone know what the deal with the tunnels at that site is? What were they used for? There couldn't be anything to find within the tunnels, but I wonder if "Friends of Jennifer" used the tunnels as jumping off points, to search on either end?"

According to Wikipedia, Willowbrook was designed after the Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island, but I didn't find any reference to the tunnels.

"Pilgrim State Hospital is mentioned in the 2009 documentary movie Cropsey, as having reportedly housed the mother of convicted child kidnapper Andre Rand.[6] One of Andre's supposed victims, Jennifer Schweiger, was found buried in a shallow grave behind the grounds of the abandoned Willowbrook State School which was built under the same design as Pilgrim State Hospital."

If Willowbrook's design was fashioned after Pilgrim Hospital, I wonder if Pilgrim also had these tunnels?....I would guess if Rand was familiar with Pilgrim, he would have felt very comfortable taking a job at Willowbrook.

BBM: I agree wholeheartedly with this. I read he was a teenager at the time his mother was at Pilgrim. In addition to knowing the building and tunnels, I wonder if Pilgrim is where he learned what he could get away with concerning people with developmental disabilities.

 

[Jmoose]

Wow-so Rand's mother was at Pilgrim! This explains how he worked and lived at Willowbrook, and possibly committed and hid his crimes there. I think that a thorough search of the grounds must have been conducted there for the children he was suspected of harming, as well as the women who disappeared from the facility. This does make me wonder if the archaeological review of the site was more substantial than normal, prior to College of Staten Island's takeover of the property. It makes me wish that they could turn the grounds of the entire site over to see what might be buried there.

I don't know how much this has to do with Sylvia, since we have no indication that her path ever intersected with his, but this is very interesting!

 

[rosemadderlake]

It is interesting. Here is link to: Collections Summary for Fort Wadsworth NY; an archeological compliance report for the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. Considering the Native American tribes that once occupied Staten Island, a college institution should be “digging” in accordance with that protocol. Not sure how such discoveries were handled before 1990, but excavators and inspectors do have training in the spotting, finding, and protection of human remains.

Collections Summary for Fort Wadsworth NY
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...etiAEaEwTLXgiSPVw&sig2=nNbQTz2TiPXGIQfhiYDcNA


Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act
PUBLIC LAW 101-601--NOV. 16, 1990
http://www.nps.gov/nagpra/mandates/25usc3001etseq.htm

 

[Jmoose]

It is interesting. Here is link to: Collections Summary for Fort Wadsworth NY; an archeological compliance report for the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. Considering the Native American tribes that once occupied Staten Island, a college institution should be “digging” in accordance with that protocol. Not sure how such discoveries were handled before 1990, but excavators and inspectors do have training in the spotting, finding, and protection of human remains.

Collections Summary for Fort Wadsworth NY
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...etiAEaEwTLXgiSPVw&sig2=nNbQTz2TiPXGIQfhiYDcNA


Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act
PUBLIC LAW 101-601--NOV. 16, 1990
http://www.nps.gov/nagpra/mandates/25usc3001etseq.htm

I am very interested in looking at the two links you provided, Rose-it always has upset me to know that these Native American sites have been treated disrespectfully, and I know that Staten Island had a relatively large Native American population-there is much on SI to recommend careful analysis of a location there prior to construction, and especially if there is the possibilty that someone like Rand has hidden evidence of at least one crime in the same location.

 

[alliemay]

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/satanic-insanity-the-new-york-city-farm-colony

"And so, like many other farm colonies, the colony could no longer sustain itself and was sealed and abandoned in 1975."

"The '70s saw the disappearance of many local children; one minute they’d be walking with their parents, the next they’d be gone, only to be discovered days later in shallow graves on Farm Colony property. Past patients were often spotted haunting the
grounds, walking the quickly decaying tunnels and hallways under the buildings they once worked to maintain."

Past patients walking the grounds after it closed in 1975. That's sad and scary at the same time. Not sure why these articles can't mention what children were found in shallow graves!!??

Unless they mean the graves of the children that died in the hospital. I know the Pilgrim Hospital had it's own grave yard, if you want to call it that. Nothing but crosses and the number of the patient on the stone. No names.

Quickly decaying tunnels and hallways under the buildings. I don't have the link but I did read an article that mentioned the tunnels in the Pilgrim hospital. So Pilgrim, which is Long Island, Willowbrook and New York City Farm Colony, which are both part of the Greenbelt, all had this design.

As far as I can tell nothing has been built on Farm Colony property, which means these buildings are still there.

I'm looking for possible places that ANYONE could have used to hide a body.

 

[rosemadderlake]

LE all over the country must be looking at the potential of the new sonar technology used in the discovery of the six bodies in the Oklahoma reservoir this past week. –Incredible. What could be the potential for its use in the waters of Staten Island?


“It wasn't supposed to turn into a cold case mystery -- or possibly solve a couple, for that matter -- when Highway Patrol Trooper George Hoyle took new sonar equipment out to an Oklahoma lake on a training mission last week.”

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/19/us/oklahoma-lake-bodies/

 

[gajonka]

Please see attached police report and newspaper article re Sylvia's engagement

HOW ARE THE MEGA-SLEUTHS DOING!>!>!>!>??

(smile)

You look well - and it is better to LOOK good - than to FEEL good...


Hoping we are close to securing justice withn re: to Sylvia.

I am back- and have some due dili to perform..

Let's kick some butt!

love ya,


THE GAJONKA

 

[gajonka]

I am very interested in looking at the two links you provided, Rose-it always has upset me to know that these Native American sites have been treated disrespectfully, and I know that Staten Island had a relatively large Native American population-there is much on SI to recommend careful analysis of a location there prior to construction, and especially if there is the possibilty that someone like Rand has hidden evidence of at least one crime in the same location.

Hi _ J-MO-

Our rising superstar - the best of the best...

I've been trying to generate some buzz over at the "MARK REDWINE" thread - recall him? He's the cowboy who has not been charged re: the mysterious dissapreance of his son, Dylan. Apparently, my discourses have been too heavy heanded - as they always get deleted.

Considering the Raven Abaroa case - and the David Pietz trial *five years, 2 years , respectively), I guess it takes time to buidl a case.

Also observed the Grant Hayes case - suich a sad tale.

hOPE YOU are welll - thanks so much for your help on SYlvia's case.

The <G>

 

[alliemay]

MMQC - What year was it that you had the summer painting jobs? Did you put an add in the local paper or did you just put up posters looking for jobs?

 

[FrankD]

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/satanic-insanity-the-new-york-city-farm-colony

"And so, like many other farm colonies, the colony could no longer sustain itself and was sealed and abandoned in 1975."

"The '70s saw the disappearance of many local children; one minute they’d be walking with their parents, the next they’d be gone, only to be discovered days later in shallow graves on Farm Colony property. Past patients were often spotted haunting the
grounds, walking the quickly decaying tunnels and hallways under the buildings they once worked to maintain."

Past patients walking the grounds after it closed in 1975. That's sad and scary at the same time. Not sure why these articles can't mention what children were found in shallow graves!!??

Unless they mean the graves of the children that died in the hospital. I know the Pilgrim Hospital had it's own grave yard, if you want to call it that. Nothing but crosses and the number of the patient on the stone. No names.

Quickly decaying tunnels and hallways under the buildings. I don't have the link but I did read an article that mentioned the tunnels in the Pilgrim hospital. So Pilgrim, which is Long Island, Willowbrook and New York City Farm Colony, which are both part of the Greenbelt, all had this design.

As far as I can tell nothing has been built on Farm Colony property, which means these buildings are still there.

I'm looking for possible places that ANYONE could have used to hide a body.

I read on Silive that a builder is clearing 9 acres of woods which also borders a pond along Lamberts Lane in Granitville! Over 100 townhouses will be built on top of wetlands! These greedy builders will steam roll over anything on this Island!

 

[Jmoose]

I read on Silive that a builder is clearing 9 acres of woods which also borders a pond along Lamberts Lane in Granitville! Over 100 townhouses will be built on top of wetlands! These greedy builders will steam roll over anything on this Island!

We can always hope that the builder has to do a carefully completed analysis of the area in question, with an archaeological assessment-but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it, since the officials aren't supposed to give a developer a permit to build on wetlands in the first place!

 

[rosemadderlake]

I read on Silive that a builder is clearing 9 acres of woods which also borders a pond along Lamberts Lane in Granitville! Over 100 townhouses will be built on top of wetlands! These greedy builders will steam roll over anything on this Island!

FrankD, The article on hi density development on Lambert La. in Graniteville, SI., is interesting. Yes, they paved over paradise on SI. And, the developer got the ok from NY State DEC.

Now, I wonder why those lots have been vacant for so long? -Not developed before now? It has been mentioned that the development on SI since the 90's especially is a big factor in the finding of Sylvia.

There was another interesting article in the Adv. on Richmond Ave. history. After focusing on SI for the last few months, if I ever visit, I might just know my way around.


NY State DEC
&#8220;The state Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) originally issued a freshwater wetlands permit in July of 2004 to the company. The agency reissued another permit in January this year, according to DEC spokesman Rodney Rivera.&#8221;

http://www.silive.com/westshore/index.ssf/2013/09/empty_staten_island_lot_to_be.html

 

[GoingByMyGut]

FrankD, The article on hi density development on Lambert La. in Graniteville, SI., is interesting. Yes, they paved over paradise on SI. And, the developer got the ok from NY State DEC.

Now, I wonder why those lots have been vacant for so long? -Not developed before now? It has been mentioned that the development on SI since the 90's especially is a big factor in the finding of Sylvia.

There was another interesting article in the Adv. on Richmond Ave. history. After focusing on SI for the last few months, if I ever visit, I might just know my way around.


NY State DEC
&#8220;The state Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) originally issued a freshwater wetlands permit in July of 2004 to the company. The agency reissued another permit in January this year, according to DEC spokesman Rodney Rivera.&#8221;

http://www.silive.com/westshore/index.ssf/2013/09/empty_staten_island_lot_to_be.html

BBM: Unless you're suggesting something else, it may just be because they are wetlands. Once the most readily build-able lots are gone, and RE values have risen enough, it becomes affordable to pay the extra money associated with salvaging less build-able lots. Of course, there are lots of private reasons that can be associated with land suddenly becoming available (like the death of old-time farmer or a property that's been tied up legal drama over an estate finally being settled). I've seen the same thing happen around here tho re sensitive environments: Once the prime property was taken, builders started looking at steep slopes.