NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Odyssey]

Some detective (somewhere) speculated upon my question about suicide in Sylvia's case that she could have jumped off a bridge-some times they find the body, and sometimes they don't. It seems like they always do when they know that someone's jumped-the body almost always turns up. I wouldn't bet my own money that she did this-but I might bet somebody else's.

It's a possibility... but I personally don't interpret the word depressed (from the report) as really meaning depressed. I interpret it as a guess of how she might be feeling after having a fight with BF/F. It wouldn't really surprise me if the officer taking the report filled that in based on the circumstances.

Another thing that bothers me about that theory is how she would have gotten to the bridge. It's been a long time since I lived on SI and I was a kid then so please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, the closest bridge to the mall area was the Goethals. I know that you had to take Goethals Parkway to get to that bridge, and it was a major freeway with no place to walk. Verrazano Bridge, from what I remember, you had to go up one of the long ramps (upper or lower deck) and pay a toll to get on. I don't recall any way to walk onto that bridge either.

That would leave the Bayonne or the Outerbridge Crossing which I am not very familiar with. Both connect to New Jersey but we rarely used them so I don't recall how they were accessed.

The Brooklyn Bridge and George Washington bridges have a pedestrian walkway, I believe, but they do not connect to Staten Island.

 

[Jmoose]

It's a possibility... but I personally don't interpret the word depressed (from the report) as really meaning depressed. I interpret it as a guess of how she might be feeling after having a fight with BF/F. It wouldn't really surprise me if the officer taking the report filled that in based on the circumstances.

Another thing that bothers me about that theory is how she would have gotten to the bridge. It's been a long time since I lived on SI and I was a kid then so please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, the closest bridge to the mall area was the Goethals. I know that you had to take Goethals Parkway to get to that bridge, and it was a major freeway with no place to walk. Verrazano Bridge, from what I remember, you had to go up one of the long ramps (upper or lower deck) and pay a toll to get on. I don't recall any way to walk onto that bridge either.

That would leave the Bayonne or the Outerbridge Crossing which I am not very familiar with. Both connect to New Jersey but we rarely used them so I don't recall how they were accessed.

The Brooklyn Bridge and George Washington bridges have a pedestrian walkway, I believe, but they do not connect to Staten Island.

As I said, I wouldn't bet my own money that she jumped from a bridge, or even committed suicide, for that matter. I had asked that Det. how easy it would be to hide yourself on Staten Island, if you committed suicide, and he admitted that it wouldn't be easy (although he did say the water would be an option). Of course, he didn't give anything else up. In spite of all of the Bucks County speculation last year, I do think that she never left Staten Island, no matter what happened to her.

 

[Odyssey]

As I said, I wouldn't bet my own money that she jumped from a bridge, or even committed suicide, for that matter. I had asked that Det. how easy it would be to hide yourself on Staten Island, if you committed suicide, and he admitted that it wouldn't be easy (although he did say the water would be an option). Of course, he didn't give anything else up. In spite of all of the Bucks County speculation last year, I do think that she never left Staten Island, no matter what happened to her.

Same here...

 

[alliemay]

Just some thoughts/questions, not even sure if I can explain it right. What if she did catch a bus home, but instead of getting off the bus and going into her house she walked straight to the end of her street, which is the ocean? What if she saw someone she knew and asked them to drop her off at, such and such location? Would that person inform anyone once they found out she was missing? Probably not if they were afraid they might look suspicious. What waterways are in close proximity to Richmond Ave. one's that a person could easily walk to. I really wish we knew if there had been any prior history of depression.

 

[Jmoose]

Just some thoughts/questions, not even sure if I can explain it right. What if she did catch a bus home, but instead of getting off the bus and going into her house she walked straight to the end of her street, which is the ocean? What if she saw someone she knew and asked them to drop her off at, such and such location? Would that person inform anyone once they found out she was missing? Probably not if they were afraid they might look suspicious. What waterways are in close proximity to Richmond Ave. one's that a person could easily walk to. I really wish we knew if there had been any prior history of depression.

No place on Staten Island is too far from the water; I am thinking that, physically, drowning yourself would be really difficult to do, unless you injured yourself by jumping from some high place. If she met up with someone she knew that night, they've never said so, and won't do so now. I, too, wish we knew if Sylvia was actually clinically depressed-I don't know how common it was to be diagnosed that way in those days. Now, they understand it better, but then you might have been instructed to "snap out of it".

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Just some thoughts/questions, not even sure if I can explain it right. What if she did catch a bus home, but instead of getting off the bus and going into her house she walked straight to the end of her street, which is the ocean? What if she saw someone she knew and asked them to drop her off at, such and such location? Would that person inform anyone once they found out she was missing? Probably not if they were afraid they might look suspicious. What waterways are in close proximity to Richmond Ave. one's that a person could easily walk to. I really wish we knew if there had been any prior history of depression.

BBM: IF she were to have killed herself, this is how I envision her doing it. IF she was this depressed, I don't see her going outside her comfort zone on this night of all nights. A bridge would be a stage I think she'd avoid. She might not do it right away. She might go there, find a private spot, wait for nightfall, and let the dark thoughts carry her closer and closer to the water. There is no magic to this way of self-drowning. You simply keep walking until you are in over your depth and succumb to it. It is a form of self-obliteration. At this level of depression, there is little left to lose. She would not feel like she was giving up much because there would not be much left to give. It's a bit like a drugged state -- like not being in her right mind. It's very passive. I can see it. I don't know that it is what she did, or that it fits who she was, or that it's the most likely thing to have happened to her, but she would not have been the first person to do this this way. JMO

 

[alliemay]

Going through the "unidentified" on Namus takes quite a bit of time, it's unbelievable how many people are there. I even went through the amnesia list where I tried to compare Sylvia's picture to a woman who didn't know who she was, this woman died without ever knowing. This condition, very rare, of knowing how to do things, but not knowing who you are is brought on by some sort of stress in the brain. I've seen two things on TV about this and I can't even imagine living with a person who has this. I still feel, whatever happened was local.

 

[Odyssey]

Going through the "unidentified" on Namus takes quite a bit of time, it's unbelievable how many people are there. I even went through the amnesia list where I tried to compare Sylvia's picture to a woman who didn't know who she was, this woman died without ever knowing. This condition, very rare, of knowing how to do things, but not knowing who you are is brought on by some sort of stress in the brain. I've seen two things on TV about this and I can't even imagine living with a person who has this. I still feel, whatever happened was local.

bbm

Based on what we've been told, and what is in the PR, I also feel that she never left Staten Island.

But I don't discount the possibility that they never went the movies at all - it could be that

a) Sylvia thought they were going to the movies but he had other plans
b) They planned to go to the movies but changed their minds after he picked her up
c) They never planned to go to the movies but that was just what SL told her parents.

If they never went to the movies, I don't think it's all that far-fetched to consider that they may have left Staten Island.

Of course, these scenarios only work if BF/F was involved somehow, otherwise why send MMQC to look for her by the mall?

 

[Jmoose]

bbm

Based on what we've been told, and what is in the PR, I also feel that she never left Staten Island.

But I don't discount the possibility that they never went the movies at all - it could be that

a) Sylvia thought they were going to the movies but he had other plans
b) They planned to go to the movies but changed their minds after he picked her up
c) They never planned to go to the movies but that was just what SL told her parents.

If they never went to the movies, I don't think it's all that far-fetched to consider that they may have left Staten Island.

Of course, these scenarios only work if BF/F was involved somehow, otherwise why send MMQC to look for her by the mall?

I had this same exact thought the other day

 

[alliemay]

BBM: IF she were to have killed herself, this is how I envision her doing it. IF she was this depressed, I don't see her going outside her comfort zone on this night of all nights. A bridge would be a stage I think she'd avoid. She might not do it right away. She might go there, find a private spot, wait for nightfall, and let the dark thoughts carry her closer and closer to the water. There is no magic to this way of self-drowning. You simply keep walking until you are in over your depth and succumb to it. It is a form of self-obliteration. At this level of depression, there is little left to lose. She would not feel like she was giving up much because there would not be much left to give. It's a bit like a drugged state -- like not being in her right mind. It's very passive. I can see it. I don't know that it is what she did, or that it fits who she was, or that it's the most likely thing to have happened to her, but she would not have been the first person to do this this way. JMO

Was thinking about what you said about the bridge being a stage you think she would avoid. I know this article was from 1964, but it had an interesting comment about the bridge and thought I'd share.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...udLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LIwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4521,3501460

 

[Jmoose]

Was thinking about what you said about the bridge being a stage you think she would avoid. I know this article was from 1964, but it had an interesting comment about the bridge and thought I'd share.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...udLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LIwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4521,3501460

So in spite of the fact that bridges are an attraction to "jumpers", it's unlikely that Sylvia would or could have jumped from the Verrazano-Narrows bridge?

How do you find all of these interesting articles and information, Skeet?

 

[alliemay]

Just click on the link above and type what you are looking for in the search engine. To many words you get nothing, it seems like you have to keep the wording simple. There isn't anything on her name, not even the last name. Actually I was trying to find out any info on possible car accidents etc. on that night, anything that would have caused a traffic jam. I didn't have any luck with typing in Richmond Ave, but I'm going to try other street names. I have a few more street names to work with because last night I talked with someone who was manager at the island theater at that time. He explained there was only a few traffic lights, one on Arthur Kill Road, about a mile from Kmart, one at the Kmart plaza, one at Korvettes plaza about 500 ft. from the theater, and one at the mall. A traffic jam might have been possible at Arthur Kill Road and near Rockland Avenue where the lanes from Richmond Ave. merged into two lanes of traffic. The parking lot of the theater was shared with Pathmark, Westons's and Kmart. Behind the theater, there was a bank, Jade Island (bar) and Deli King and a few other stores. If anything this gave me a better visual of the area in 1975. I think the Island Theater was maybe called the Jade Island Theater at one time but I haven't found anything yet. Reading different comments also helps me know that there were some diners on Richmond Ave. that stayed open all night. Knowing the Pathmark store was near Kmart also made me think of Rand (I know don't go there right lol) I remember reading an article that said the Rand would ride his bike back and forth to the Pathmark store. I'll have to find that link again to see how close Rand lived to the mall.

 

[Jmoose]

Just click on the link above and type what you are looking for in the search engine. To many words you get nothing, it seems like you have to keep the wording simple. There isn't anything on her name, not even the last name. Actually I was trying to find out any info on possible car accidents etc. on that night, anything that would have caused a traffic jam. I didn't have any luck with typing in Richmond Ave, but I'm going to try other street names. I have a few more street names to work with because last night I talked with someone who was manager at the island theater at that time. He explained there was only a few traffic lights, one on Arthur Kill Road, about a mile from Kmart, one at the Kmart plaza, one at Korvettes plaza about 500 ft. from the theater, and one at the mall. A traffic jam might have been possible at Arthur Kill Road and near Rockland Avenue where the lanes from Richmond Ave. merged into two lanes of traffic. The parking lot of the theater was shared with Pathmark, Westons's and Kmart. Behind the theater, there was a bank, Jade Island (bar) and Deli King and a few other stores. If anything this gave me a better visual of the area in 1975. I think the Island Theater was maybe called the Jade Island Theater at one time but I haven't found anything yet. Reading different comments also helps me know that there were some diners on Richmond Ave. that stayed open all night. Knowing the Pathmark store was near Kmart also made me think of Rand (I know don't go there right lol) I remember reading an article that said the Rand would ride his bike back and forth to the Pathmark store. I'll have to find that link again to see how close Rand lived to the mall.

I don't think Rand is completely out of the question, even though he was attracted to children-maybe his attraction was to the vulnerable, which Sylvia surely was that night, if her fiance is to be believed. It may be unlikely that Rand was involved, but still possible, since we have so little information.

 

[alliemay]

Yes, Rand was more interested in children but I think about Ethel Atwell, she was never found and I think he worked at Willowbrook at the time she went missing from there.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Was thinking about what you said about the bridge being a stage you think she would avoid. I know this article was from 1964, but it had an interesting comment about the bridge and thought I'd share.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...udLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LIwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4521,3501460

LOL. 1964! Thank goodness writers don't "talk" that pretentiously anymore! What a treat, Skeet. Interesting tidbit that most "jumpers" drive to their final destination. Can walking across a ginormous bridge really be scarier than killing yourself?! ROTFL. As a person who has balance issues, bridges scare the bejesus out of me, but so would jumping to my death. Interesting. Thanks

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Just click on the link above and type what you are looking for in the search engine. To many words you get nothing, it seems like you have to keep the wording simple. There isn't anything on her name, not even the last name. Actually I was trying to find out any info on possible car accidents etc. on that night, anything that would have caused a traffic jam. I didn't have any luck with typing in Richmond Ave, but I'm going to try other street names. I have a few more street names to work with because last night I talked with someone who was manager at the island theater at that time. He explained there was only a few traffic lights, one on Arthur Kill Road, about a mile from Kmart, one at the Kmart plaza, one at Korvettes plaza about 500 ft. from the theater, and one at the mall. A traffic jam might have been possible at Arthur Kill Road and near Rockland Avenue where the lanes from Richmond Ave. merged into two lanes of traffic. The parking lot of the theater was shared with Pathmark, Westons's and Kmart. Behind the theater, there was a bank, Jade Island (bar) and Deli King and a few other stores. If anything this gave me a better visual of the area in 1975. I think the Island Theater was maybe called the Jade Island Theater at one time but I haven't found anything yet. Reading different comments also helps me know that there were some diners on Richmond Ave. that stayed open all night. Knowing the Pathmark store was near Kmart also made me think of Rand (I know don't go there right lol) I remember reading an article that said the Rand would ride his bike back and forth to the Pathmark store. I'll have to find that link again to see how close Rand lived to the mall.

Busy bee, Skeet! :bee:

BBM: Personally, I find the bit about Rand and the Pathmark very interesting. As to where he lived, do I remember correctly that at this point in time he was thought to be living on the grounds of Willowbrook? Camping and in the tunnels? And I think he had a VW. At some earlier or later point, I believe he lived in an apartment building on the north end of the island. Could there have been more than one Pathmark? I am murky on the timeline of his activities as very little is written about him during this period.

ETA: After locating my Thread 1 post for the replies below this one, I found a reference to him living in the abandoned buildings and tunnels at Willowbrook, but no date associated with the info. As late as 1987 he had a campsite there. I think if we knew the years he worked at Willowbrook we would have a basis for him being in the area at the time, because Willowbrook was on what is now the Greenway -- IOW, very close by. And Rand appears to have been very comfortable traversing the wooded areas between these places.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I don't think Rand is completely out of the question, even though he was attracted to children-maybe his attraction was to the vulnerable, which Sylvia surely was that night, if her fiance is to be believed. It may be unlikely that Rand was involved, but still possible, since we have so little information.

Yes, Rand was more interested in children but I think about Ethel Atwell, she was never found and I think he worked at Willowbrook at the time she went missing from there.

Rand is associated with the deaths/disappearances of several adult women (Helen Lever, Ethel Atwell, Shin Lee), some known, some only alleged. I made the following points in Post 617 in Thread 1 (BBM):


"(c) Most of his alleged victims are children, and he sometimes even boasted of his predilection for pedophilia, but he made exceptions. The text of a NY Daily News article printed on the above site says 'In 1979, he was accused of raping a young woman and a 15-year-old girl, but neither pressed charges.' "(source)

"(d) Along the same lines, a 2011 article from the Staten Island Advance claims that at a sentencing hearing 7 years earlier, he 'professed his love for older and lonely women and invited the female jurors to correspond with him.' "

He is still on the table for me.

 

[alliemay]

Busy bee, Skeet! :bee:

BBM: Personally, I find the bit about Rand and the Pathmark very interesting. As to where he lived, do I remember correctly that at this point in time he was thought to be living on the grounds of Willowbrook? Camping and in the tunnels? And I think he had a VW. At some earlier or later point, I believe he lived in an apartment building on the north end of the island. Could there have been more than one Pathmark? I am murky on the timeline of his activities as very little is written about him during this period.

ETA: After locating my Thread 1 post for the replies below this one, I found a reference to him living in the abandoned buildings and tunnels at Willowbrook, but no date associated with the info. As late as 1987 he had a campsite there.

Yes there isn't much I can find out about him after he changed his name. Not until he started being accused of things. I know he had a painting business, (that made me wonder if he bought his paint supplies at the same store, Martin's, that Sylvia and MMQC did), but I can't find any painting adds with either the Rand name or his real name. I know from talking to the man from the collectable place that Rand rode the bus with him when he would take the bus to his football practices. I forgot to ask him what year that was though, so I will have to look up his number again and ask him. The VW vehicle was in in 1982 I think when Jennifer went missing. His painting jobs were in New Dorp at the Tyson apartments, so he was roaming around the area probably from 1972, (with Alice Pieora?) until 1982 and after I guess.

 

[alliemay]

http://thisbigcity.net/forgotten-staten-island-a-photo-essay/
"But we’re also the setting of some interesting and disturbing movies you can watch on Netflix: Combat Shock, about a Vietnam vet trying to reintegrate into society, and Cropsey, about a child kidnapper and murderer. Speaking of Cropsey, my mother clearly remembers Andre Rand riding his bike, as we played in front of our house as young children, on his trips back and forth to the Pathmark supermarket."

Looks like the writer grew up in Port Richmond.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Yes there isn't much I can find out about him after he changed his name. Not until he started being accused of things. I know he had a painting business, (that made me wonder if he bought his paint supplies at the same store, Martin's, that Sylvia and MMQC did), but I can't find any painting adds with either the Rand name or his real name. I know from talking to the man from the collectable place that Rand rode the bus with him when he would take the bus to his football practices. I forgot to ask him what year that was though, so I will have to look up his number again and ask him. The VW vehicle was in in 1982 I think when Jennifer went missing. His painting jobs were in New Dorp at the Tyson apartments, so he was roaming around the area probably from 1972, (with Alice Pieora?) until 1982 and after I guess.

BBM1: I remember when you found that paint store

Acc. to Murderpedia, the painting business was early (1972), so we know he's nearby (BBM):

"Rand was working as a painter at a South Beach, Staten Island, apartment house when five-year-old Alice Pereira vanished from one of the flats in 1972, but officers were short on solid evidence required for an indictment."

South Beach is not far from where SL lived (Google Map) at the mouth of Great Kills Harbor. New Dorp is a bit farther south from that. Do you have a source/date for the Tyson apartments (BBM3)? It seems like it would be around the same period.

BBM2: Yes, you're right about the date (but Jennifer was 1987). Also from Murderpedia (BBM):

"In 1981, Rand offered a 9-year-old girl a lollipop and tried to entice her to ride in his Volkswagen."

Re Holly Ann Hughes (7/15/81): "Police said witnesses saw Rand's green Volkswagen circling the area on that night."

But he makes this blanket comment (BBM) as well:

"You know me and [Ted] Bundy are alike in many ways. We both used Volkswagens. ..."

If it was such a part of his identity, I wonder how long he had it?

Also, by 1983, he takes those kids in "his van" to Elizabeth to watch the planes take off from Newark Airport ... was his VW a van or beetle? Or was the van a later vehicle? A second vehicle? Unclear.