NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

Ok, so-Sylvia has not been ruled out as Irondequoit Jane Doe, even though the dentals don't seem to match (as far as we know from the two VIs description of Sylvia's teeth). Why don't they update? Sylvia has been submitted as a possibility at least once, and maybe more than once-I realize that it's a long process, but if they'd listed her as a rule-out on the Namus site, it would really be helpful so we (and others) won't spin our wheels looking at this possibility.

O/T-Speaking of Irondequoit Jane Doe-I wonder if LE have considered Theodore Solano as the killer-he was a convicted sex offender who was also convicted of beating and strangling to death Natalia Andreevna in 1993. She was his Russian mail order bride, who was found naked and dead by hunters in Pennsylvania. The reason I ask is that Solano is from Irondequoit. I am not sure how big Irondequoit is, but if it can be assumed that Jane Doe was killed near where she was buried, maybe he's a possibility.

 

[alliemay]

I wonder if they can't officially rule her out because they do not have dental records for Sylvia? Maybe the case manager for Sylvia can work on trying to get them. Wishful thinking I suppose.

 

[Jmoose]

I wonder if they can't officially rule her out because they do not have dental records for Sylvia? Maybe the case manager for Sylvia can work on trying to get them. Wishful thinking I suppose.

I guess we haven't established for certain whether or not dental records exist for Sylvia. I wish ASWDH would tell us if those records exist, so we know.

 

[rosemadderlake]

From Nola’s post #208, thread #3, Pg. 9
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=212322&page=9

“This possible match has been previously submitted and is awaiting processing of DNA samples to make a determination”.

thank you for your interest.
S/Inv Kim Law, NYS ViCAP

Kim Law is Sylvia’s case manager at Namus. If the skull was previously submitted for DNA testing to compare to Sylvia, possibly, the skull’s teeth are good but must be ruled out by DNA because there are no dental records (?) available for Sylvia.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Bbm: Jmoose - I totally agree - is LE operating off of a description, or has this been verified in some way?

Here is what I received. I only made mention of perfect teeth. So, it seems someone has informed LE that she had "no cavities".

From NY State Police: re LI UID.
“The UNI mentioned below has dentals in NAMUS, listing multiple cavities, a crown, a bridge, a root canal, etc.... I spoke w Dr. Levine, and he states it is definitely not Sylvia Lwowski if she had no cavities prior to her disappearance.”

From Namus: re: Irondequoit UID
-“The description of 'perfect teeth' would rule this UP out, the dental work is extensive. There is no DNA available for the UP”.

Bbms: Both the LI and Irondequoit UIDs were ruled out according to Kim Law. Maybe it is a combo of the age and time of discovery of the UIDs --to the timeline, age, description of no cavities, and photos of Sylvia in these rule outs.

I just wonder if there is a central file on submissions and rule outs. If so, can that be obtained. Sylvia's case has been getting focused attention for a year, and before that perhaps the cold case squad ran some cross checks when she was entered into Namus. -Maybe it is the other way around - that Sylvia would be listed as a rule out on the UID cases...

-Maybe time to bug Kim for more details and also find out if Hart Island has been considered.

 

[Jmoose]

Bbms: Both the LI and Irondequoit UIDs were ruled out according to Kim Law. Maybe it is a combo of the age and time of discovery of the UIDs --to the timeline, age, description of no cavities, and photos of Sylvia in these rule outs.

I just wonder if there is a central file on submissions and rule outs. If so, can that be obtained. Sylvia's case has been getting focused attention for a year, and before that perhaps the cold case squad ran some cross checks when she was entered into Namus. -Maybe it is the other way around - that Sylvia would be listed as a rule out on the UID cases...

-Maybe time to bug Kim for more details and also find out if Hart Island has been considered.

Rose-I knew that Irondequoit Jane Doe had been ruled out, and think that the skull found on 9/11/2001 must be a rule out, unless they are right now in the process of DNA testing, and wonder why it takes so long to make the rule out official. This would seem to be the least time consuming part of the process (lol). I wonder if Kim would know about the Hart Island possibility-now that's an awesome task! Especially since the remains interred there are moved periodically to make room for more remains. More and more, I am thinking that Sylvia could be interred there without the family's knowlege, because of a lack of coordination between LE agencies in 1975.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Rose-I knew that Irondequoit Jane Doe had been ruled out, and think that the skull found on 9/11/2001 must be a rule out, unless they are right now in the process of DNA testing, and wonder why it takes so long to make the rule out official. This would seem to be the least time consuming part of the process (lol). I wonder if Kim would know about the Hart Island possibility-now that's an awesome task! Especially since the remains interred there are moved periodically to make room for more remains. More and more, I am thinking that Sylvia could be interred there without the family's knowlege, because of a lack of coordination between LE agencies in 1975.

Bbm: I don't know, but I am thinking, considering all the MPs and UIDs that it could be the lab is backlogged. There are only a couple of labs. But also, we may find out the skull is a rule out in a follow up to Kim. I just want to know there's a central list tying the MP to the rule outs.

I can't imagine LE hasn't considered Hart Island. And yes, I think it would be a gigantic task because there are so many files - the unidentified and unclaimed have to be manually researched. No question that LE and the various agencies had major challenges, problems, and major blunders like the one that left a daughter searching unnecessarily for her mom for 20 years, and then tried to enforce the 10 year disinterment rule on top of the error. --Just unbelievable what she went through.

I think if Sylvia was found with no ID, especially on Staten Island - wouldn't it have been publicized? If so, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't think so. (imo) But what if she was found in Queens, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't know...

There must have times and incidences where her family had wondered about the finding of an unidentified person, like a hyper-vigilant radar, in tune with the possibilities. What is astonishing is ever since Namus was created, it brings the sheer numbers into view. And the Namus database is a work in progress... I read somewhere that the reason there are only like 6 people listed on the NYPD missing list is because there are an average of 9 to 10 thousand missing persons reported in NYC each year. There are no administrative resources to handle maintaining a database of that scale. And NYC is not alone in this dilemma either...

 

[alliemay]

I think as far as Hart Island goes, they should start with 1975 to 1980. If I recall correctly there was a fire before 1980 that destroyed quite a bit of records. They could at least search the records that did not get destroyed in the fire.

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm: I don't know, but I am thinking, considering all the MPs and UIDs that it could be the lab is backlogged. There are only a couple of labs. But also, we may find out the skull is a rule out in a follow up to Kim. I just want to know there's a central list tying the MP to the rule outs.

I can't imagine LE hasn't considered Hart Island. And yes, I think it would be a gigantic task because there are so many files - the unidentified and unclaimed have to be manually researched. No question that LE and the various agencies had major challenges, problems, and major blunders like the one that left a daughter searching unnecessarily for her mom for 20 years, and then tried to enforce the 10 year disinterment rule on top of the error. --Just unbelievable what she went through.

I think if Sylvia was found with no ID, especially on Staten Island - wouldn't it have been publicized? If so, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't think so. (imo) But what if she was found in Queens, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't know...

There must have times and incidences where her family had wondered about the finding of an unidentified person, like a hyper-vigilant radar, in tune with the possibilities. What is astonishing is ever since Namus was created, it brings the sheer numbers into view. And the Namus database is a work in progress... I read somewhere that the reason there are only like 6 people listed on the NYPD missing list is because there are an average of 9 to 10 thousand missing persons reported in NYC each year. There are no administrative resources to handle maintaining a database of that scale. And NYC is not alone in this dilemma either...

Why are there only a couple of labs if there's so much work? Is it just that it isn't a money-making endeavor? That must be it, because there's usually someone who wants to fulfill such a need, but only when there's money to be made.

 

[rosemadderlake]

-Skeet, yes there was fire in 1977. And that definitely complicates things, especially possibly 1975 (several years of 70's records) referenced in cityroom blog article below - I wonder which years.

This may have come up last year but was not implemented yet-- not sure, but there is a searchable database for Hart Island. I searched adult females, no name, and the year span and quite a few from the SI Hospital were buried on Hart Island. – With the various criteria, might take a while to sort through Manhattan and the other boroughs. And there are burial maps.

On SI Hospital search, there is one- “N/A N/A 30 05/03/1987 STATEN ISLAND UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL”. I am presuming N/A means unidentified. The age is in range.
http://a073-hartisland-web.nyc.gov/hartisland/pages/search/search.jsf

New York City Department of Correction, Hart Island
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doc/html/hart_island/hart_island.shtml

Hart Island Searchable Database Creation article; http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...en-on-hart-island/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm: I don't know, but I am thinking, considering all the MPs and UIDs that it could be the lab is backlogged. There are only a couple of labs. But also, we may find out the skull is a rule out in a follow up to Kim. I just want to know there's a central list tying the MP to the rule outs.

I can't imagine LE hasn't considered Hart Island. And yes, I think it would be a gigantic task because there are so many files - the unidentified and unclaimed have to be manually researched. No question that LE and the various agencies had major challenges, problems, and major blunders like the one that left a daughter searching unnecessarily for her mom for 20 years, and then tried to enforce the 10 year disinterment rule on top of the error. --Just unbelievable what she went through.

I think if Sylvia was found with no ID, especially on Staten Island - wouldn't it have been publicized? If so, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't think so. (imo) But what if she was found in Queens, would the publicity have gone unnoticed? I don't know...

There must have times and incidences where her family had wondered about the finding of an unidentified person, like a hyper-vigilant radar, in tune with the possibilities. What is astonishing is ever since Namus was created, it brings the sheer numbers into view. And the Namus database is a work in progress... I read somewhere that the reason there are only like 6 people listed on the NYPD missing list is because there are an average of 9 to 10 thousand missing persons reported in NYC each year. There are no administrative resources to handle maintaining a database of that scale. And NYC is not alone in this dilemma either...

Yeah, this is what I meant. I think if she was found on Staten Island, they (LE) could, and would, have put it together. I just think that if she was found without ID anyplace else, they might have been too busy/lazy/organizationally incapable to put it together. This is why I think she could be there (Hart Island). I don't know how they're going to identify the remains at Hart Island. Some reports of how they've moved around the remains, and taken care of the paperwork make it sound almost impossible to me.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Why are there only a couple of labs if there's so much work? Is it just that it isn't a money-making endeavor? That must be it, because there's usually someone who wants to fulfill such a need, but only when there's money to be made.

Bbm: Because it is the government and the rate is reduced. Plus there is historic backlog is my guess. I read that funeral directors and cemeteries have to provide a certain percentage of cost of services, and allotment of burial ground to accommodate the unidentified and unclaimed per city and state government requirements.

 

[alliemay]

Look at the post on the previous page about Ann Rubin, she was identified by fingerprints but her family was never notified. You ask yourself how in the world could this get messed up so bad. They identified with fingerprints, they couldn't find her by social security number, and as far as I know they didn't put an ad in the paper asking if anyone knew this woman, didn't check census records or they probably would have found out who lived with her eliminating the homeless person theory. Oh well we did all that we could do, so only thing left is to bury her on Hart island, it's like something out of a horror movie. Makes me so angry for these families. So yes, I think if a body was found and the pubic was not aware by means of television or newspaper, it could get swept under the rug. They did not have the man power to investigate while new cases were in their face everyday.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Yeah, this is what I meant. I think if she was found on Staten Island, they (LE) could, and would, have put it together. I just think that if she was found without ID anyplace else, they might have been too busy/lazy/organizationally incapable to put it together. This is why I think she could be there (Hart Island). I don't know how they're going to identify the remains at Hart Island. Some reports of how they've moved around the remains, and taken care of the paperwork make it sound almost impossible to me.

BBM: Me, too. Plus -- I don't know what their basis is for choosing what to do with the remains when they move them, but I read two different scenarios: (1) mass graves, and (2) burning the remains.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Happy 61st Birthday, Sylvia!

:bdsong:

 

[alliemay]

http://pix11.com/2014/04/10/nypd-va...-staten-island-man-linked-to-2-missing-women/

Hoping they can solve these two cold cases from Staten Island.

 

[Jmoose]

http://pix11.com/2014/04/10/nypd-va...-staten-island-man-linked-to-2-missing-women/

Hoping they can solve these two cold cases from Staten Island.

It sounds like they're serious about solving the cases, with a reward of $100,000, and lots of work by Donovan's office. They obviously know who disappeared these two women, but are hoping to encourage cooperation by a witness or collaborator, and that could be dangerous (in my opinion, Elizabeth Bump disappeared because she knew more than she should have about the car theft/chop shop enterprise in which Chorman was involved).

 

[rosemadderlake]

Convo with Kim @ Namus -

I have emailed NJSP to see if we can make a comparison, I'll let you know.

As far as exclusions, NAMUS exclusions are in the database, anything that is in our VICAP files is LE only, so if you don't see something in NAMUS, just email us and we will check.

Kim

Rosemadderlake to Kim, today 04.30.14
Hi Kim:

Following up on this UID quoted below (NIC# U200003442; Case Number 01-27642) brought to our attention at Websleuths last July. Has there been a DNA determination or is it still awaiting processing?

Snipped from NY Department of Police database...

On September 11, 2001, a skull was found at a demolition site at 227 Park Avenue, East Orange, Essex County, New Jersey. Unknown date/year of death. Estimated year of birth would be off ('61-'81 compared to 1953); but age at death is 17-22. This location is about 35 minutes from Staten Island.
http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_essex_u200003442.html


ETA: I received an e-mail back from NY State Police regarding my inquiry into their Jane Doe...

this possible match has been previously submitted and is awaiting processing of DNA samples to make a determination.

thank you for your interest.
S/Inv Kim Law, NYS ViCAP

--Not sure how this works but is there a list of "rule outs" for Sylvia? I see some MPs and UIDs have lists and others do not.

--Also, have the Hart Island UIDs and unclaimed been a consideration for Sylvia? If we see a possible UID on their database, do we submit that to you?


I appreciate your help.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

http://pix11.com/2014/04/10/nypd-va...-staten-island-man-linked-to-2-missing-women/

Hoping they can solve these two cold cases from Staten Island.

It sounds like they're serious about solving the cases, with a reward of $100,000, and lots of work by Donovan's office. They obviously know who disappeared these two women, but are hoping to encourage cooperation by a witness or collaborator, and that could be dangerous (in my opinion, Elizabeth Bump disappeared because she knew more than she should have about the car theft/chop shop enterprise in which Chorman was involved).

Yeah, I've read about this one a number of times. Thanks for the update, Skeet. This is the case that made me think the area under the Outerbridge Crossing (Tottenville side) should be searched for burial sites -- for SL as well as AMS.

BBM: I agree -- both generally and with regard to EB. Is it just me or is that van announcement tactic way off the map? Have any of you ever heard of LE doing something like that before? It seems VERY incendiary. And why would they use the sister to record the message?! Doesn't that just put her in jeopardy? LE sure doesn't seem worried about harassment in this case ... (I mean NO comparison to SL's BF/F, who does not have the kind of incriminating circumstances surrounding his behavior that AMS's BF does -- I just mean I think LE generally tries to avoid harassment).

 

[Jmoose]

Yeah, I've read about this one a number of times. Thanks for the update, Skeet. This is the case that made me think the area under the Outerbridge Crossing (Tottenville side) should be searched for burial sites -- for SL as well as AMS.

BBM: I agree -- both generally and with regard to EB. Is it just me or is that van announcement tactic way off the map? Have any of you ever heard of LE doing something like that before? It seems VERY incendiary. And why would they use the sister to record the message?! Doesn't that just put her in jeopardy? LE sure doesn't seem worried about harassment in this case ... (I mean NO comparison to SL's BF/F, who does not have the kind of incriminating circumstances surrounding his behavior that AMS's BF does -- I just mean I think LE generally tries to avoid harassment).

Looks like LE really wants to bust Chorman's chops! I would agree that it may be putting the sister in jeopardy, but she doesn't seem to care. LE appear to be certain about Chorman's involvement, and since he's a real low-rider, harrassment doesn't appear to be a problem! This is definitely not something they'd try with BF/F, even if they were sure he was involved in Sylvia's disappearance, and I don't think they are sure of anything in her case.