NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

I wonder what the possibilities in the NYC area would have been in terms of admission to a mental care facility, in the 1970s? I'd like to avoid contemplating the ones outside of the area for the moment (just for the sake of expediency). Are we assuming that if Sylvia ended up in one of these places, that the people caring for her don't know her name? In other words, would they treat her without telling her family, because of patient privacy laws? Could she be buried in a Potter's cemetery with her own name, without her family being notified?

 

[Odyssey]

I wonder what the possibilities in the NYC area would have been in terms of admission to a mental care facility, in the 1970s? I'd like to avoid contemplating the ones outside of the area for the moment (just for the sake of expediency). Are we assuming that if Sylvia ended up in one of these places, that the people caring for her don't know her name? In other words, would they treat her without telling her family, because of patient privacy laws? Could she be buried in a Potter's cemetery with her own name, without her family being notified?

I could be wrong - but I don't think that depression and/or personal problems qualified as mental illness back then. I think that someone could only be admitted into a mental institution if they posed a danger to themselves or others, or if their families could not 'manage' them. At least, not a government funded one. Maybe a private one if she had the means to pay for it.

I'd think she would have been told to see a psychiatrist on an outpatient basis, it seems that the inpatient facilities only housed the most serious cases of psychosis/schizophrenia, etc.

That was the impression I got, anyway, reading about Willowbrook and others...

 

[Odyssey]

Just wanted to update that I got a response from the historical society that I contacted. They said they are out of the office until July 21 and will check to see if they have that directory when they return.

Since I have a tendency to get sidetracked with other things, if anyone notices that I haven't come back with an update by the end of the month, please shoot me a reminder via PM. If they don't have 1975, I will ask for the closest year that they do have.

They don't have 1975, the closest they have is 1969, which I think is too early. They referred me to the Staten Island Historical Society. I'm pretty sure I tried them already and got no response, but I couldn't find anything in my outgoing email - I probably filled out an online form. I will try again though.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I wonder what the possibilities in the NYC area would have been in terms of admission to a mental care facility, in the 1970s? I'd like to avoid contemplating the ones outside of the area for the moment (just for the sake of expediency). Are we assuming that if Sylvia ended up in one of these places, that the people caring for her don't know her name? In other words, would they treat her without telling her family, because of patient privacy laws? Could she be buried in a Potter's cemetery with her own name, without her family being notified?

-Good questions, jmoose. Was there a good mechanism in place via communication between LE, and the mental hospitals, regarding missing persons? I guess I have my doubts about this in 1975, i.e. if she was identified and treated as an adult, did they know she was a missing person? If she did not know who she was and had no ID, then what? -Would they ID her from a missing person picture? If Sylvia died there with ID, there would be a death record.

What is daunting about this is how many mental hospitals were abandoned in the 80's. The whole immediate history and those who worked there vanished along with the closing of state hospitals, some local, and nearby. -There are records on microfilm at the NY State Archives – I am sure it’s massive. – As to the listings of the cemeteries, the identified, plots, and a count of the unidentified, I do not know...


Understanding HIPAA, NYS Mental Hygiene Law and the Confidentiality
of Mental Health Treatment and Information in New York State

http://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/facilities/bupc/doc/Understanding_HIPAA6-2012.pdf

 

[Jmoose]

Remember, there was no publicity, and the police didn't look for her-anywhere, including hospitals. So there wouldn't be any way for hospital personnel to know that she was a missing person, unless her parents or their PI specifically contacted them. She could have just kind of fallen through the cracks in such a place. I can't say why, but this theory isn't blowing my socks off-though it's a possibilty.

From the pictures that Sylvia's brother unearthed, BF/F certainly looks harmless to me-but you never know. He is one of the possibilities, too

 

[rosemadderlake]

Remember, there was no publicity, and the police didn't look for her-anywhere, including hospitals. So there wouldn't be any way for hospital personnel to know that she was a missing person, unless her parents or their PI specifically contacted them. She could have just kind of fallen through the cracks in such a place. I can't say why, but this theory isn't blowing my socks off-though it's a possibilty.

From the pictures that Sylvia's brother unearthed, BF/F certainly looks harmless to me-but you never know. He is one of the possibilities, too

I am wondering more about how a mental hospital would attempt to identify someone. If no I.D., would they cross check MP reports?

I am thinking of the acute psychological conditions that might land one in a mental hospital – trauma, injury, escape, attempted suicide.

I knew a couple of people who had adult onset experiences with the mental hospital – one, my friend who was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her early 20’s, and another who had a breakdown in her 40’s. The former was in and out of a NJ State mental hospital in the 70’s – the police knew her, and would take her in when she was not functioning well. The latter was a private, non-profit clinic covered by her healthcare in the 90’s. Her experience was an acute episode, the police were involved in getting her to a hospital initially- she was catatonic for a few weeks and no one knew where she was until she came around. I visited her at the clinic and remember well the sights and sounds of her surroundings. These two were not missing persons, though.

Bbm: It could be a dead end possibility or one that was just never pursued because of the circumstances and certainty of what her family (and others) may have thought happened to her.

Still, these numbers are ominous… One article states –

“There are an estimated 50,000 such unmarked graves at cemeteries across New York, some of which are now being refurbished”.

“A major hurdle is the 1996 Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, or HIPAA, which protects personal health information. While a record exists of the patients buried at the cemeteries the state Office of Mental Health has informed the group it can put names on headstones only if family members of the deceased permit it”.

Advocates seek dignity for Rockland Psychiatric Center patients buried in anonymity
http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...-Psychiatric-Center-patients-buried-anonymity

 

[Jmoose]

So the families must give them (the mental facilities) permission to publically identify the people in the graveyard-if they can find them. I wonder how many patients are nameless while living in the facilities-there would be some, I would think. It would be impossible to find Sylvia in such a place-and there are many places like this.

If Sylvia found herself in a place like this, the police, at least in the NYC area would know that she was there pretty quickly. If she came in and couldn't be identified right away, I think contacting the police would be one of the first things they'd do (IMO). And if she had ID, or if the police brought her in, somebody involved with her case would be aware. However, if she was just a little ways from NYC, that might not be true, unless she had identification, or could identify herself. I think this is sort of stretching it-we have no more evidence of this than we have that BF/F did something to her. Of course it's possible, and how terribly sad and tragic would it be if she ended up in an institution and her family never knew. I am sure that there are missing person cases where this very thing has happened. There are some other things in this case that trouble me, though, and they mostly have to do with how nobody talked about this woman or spent much time looking for her.

 

[Jmoose]

I just finished looking at the NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) guide for parents site-gave a lot of good suggestions for families of missing and mentally ill children. I think the Lwowskis and their PI did all of the things that were suggested on this page. One thing I started thinking about when I was reading was regarding an age progression, which I think we've already talked about-I can't understand why this hasn't been done, and distributed? As Rose has said, psychiatric facilities would be one place where it might do some good. Why on earth, unless LE knows she's dead, isn't this already done? Can her brother requisition this, if the police aren't interested? And who would actually put it together?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I just finished looking at the NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) guide for parents site-gave a lot of good suggestions for families of missing and mentally ill children. I think the Lwowskis and their PI did all of the things that were suggested on this page. One thing I started thinking about when I was reading was regarding an age progression, which I think we've already talked about-I can't understand why this hasn't been done, and distributed? As Rose has said, psychiatric facilities would be one place where it might do some good. Why on earth, unless LE knows she's dead, isn't this already done? Can her brother requisition this, if the police aren't interested? And who would actually put it together?

Bbm - Except "Publicity" in 1975. I do wonder if LE had a picture of her back then...

Bbm - I'll ask Sylvia's case manager about an age-progression when I hear back re: UIDs. Yes, it would be useful. I know there are WS peeps who do this, too. I looked into software a while back and there is everything from free to professional software. Part of it is having the right photograph to work with. There are a couple of the recent black and white photos that meet the criteria, I think.

 

[Jmoose]

I am not up to speed on how age progression works-do the people who do them, also use photos of siblings and parents at the age that she would now be? That is something her brother could help with. There are a couple of good ones of Sylvia, I think, that would work, too. I just wonder why it hasn't already been done?

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm - Except "Publicity" in 1975. I do wonder if LE had a picture of her back then...

Bbm - I'll ask Sylvia's case manager about an age-progression when I hear back re: UIDs. Yes, it would be useful. I know there are WS peeps who do this, too. I looked into software a while back and there is everything from free to professional software. Part of it is having the right photograph to work with. There are a couple of the recent black and white photos that meet the criteria, I think.

Yes, you're right-except for publicity. I was thinking in terms of just looking-I think her brother said that they checked all of these places out. But publicity would have made some difference-even if it didn't mean finding her; but later on, they could say that after extensive publicity, nobody saw anything in the area Sylvia was said to have been at the time.

Is anyone else here willing to speak to Det. Savage? I'm wondering if another person would be successful in getting more information than I got?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I am not up to speed on how age progression works-do the people who do them, also use photos of siblings and parents at the age that she would now be? That is something her brother could help with. There are a couple of good ones of Sylvia, I think, that would work, too. I just wonder why it hasn't already been done?

Bbm -Cost prohibitive for cold case when her case was first reviewed? X-factor, what we don't know.

The recent photos were recently submitted / posted to her NamUs file. -Couple months ago was it? I think it is good you brought age-progression up as a reminder, though. If Sylvia remained in good physical health, in her size range with perfect teeth, I would guess she wouldn't look that much different at 60. The problem with progression is it is only one viewpoint... But, it does give one a reasonable idea.

 

[Jmoose]

At the time Sylvia disappeared, it didn't seem like they were doing these age progressions. I am surprised that they didn't in 2010, when Sylvia's brother started making some noise with LE. My hope right now is that the reason it looks like nothing is happening, is because something is happening, and LE doesn't want to talk about it, and blow it up. Not sure that's what is going on, but I can hope...

Just found out that a missing mother and daughter (from a town close to me), have been identified and the mother's husband was arrested for their murder after 20 years. This is what happens if LE doesn't give up.

 

[rosemadderlake]

At the time Sylvia disappeared, it didn't seem like they were doing these age progressions. I am surprised that they didn't in 2010, when Sylvia's brother started making some noise with LE. My hope right now is that the reason it looks like nothing is happening, is because something is happening, and LE doesn't want to talk about it, and blow it up. Not sure that's what is going on, but I can hope...

Just found out that a missing mother and daughter (from a town close to me), have been identified and the mother's husband was arrested for their murder after 20 years. This is what happens if LE doesn't give up.

bbm: If the three pictures originally posted on NamUs were the only ones LE had in 2010- I don't think they would have worked for age progression (imo).

bbm: I got the same feeling - big radio silence lately... Haven't figured out multi-quote on upgrade yet, but, as for contacting Savage, why should we? :banghead: You did great (imo) and if something is happening in this case, I really think we'll be the last to know, anyway...

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks Rose-I was thinking that, just in case there wasn't anything going on in Sylvia's case, maybe if he (Det. Savage) heard from somebody else, he'd know that there are still people (besides MMQC and DeerHunter) who care about her disappearance. It's kind of embarrassing, or it should be, at least, that no public attempt has been made by LE to find her in 39 years! I guess it wouldn't look good if LE suddenly started trying to look for her now, and I guess that is what putting together an age progession would be.

Interestingly, a woman and her daughter disappeared from Brewster NY 19 years ago, and their bodies, which were found 19 years ago, were only identified 1 month ago, because that was when LE were notified that they were missing. They had to identify the bodies, which they've finally done, before they could id the suspect in their murder. Where is Sylvia? When they find her, they'll possibly finally know what happened. I guess this is what LE is waiting for-but we shouldn't have to be the ones combing the lists of UIDs; LE should be doing it. Rose, I'm very glad that you took the initiative to contact Kim, or nobody'd look at the matches. It bothers me that LE seems to have dismissed her disappearance because it's been so long.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Thanks Rose-I was thinking that, just in case there wasn't anything going on in Sylvia's case, maybe if he (Det. Savage) heard from somebody else, he'd know that there are still people (besides MMQC and DeerHunter) who care about her disappearance. It's kind of embarrassing, or it should be, at least, that no public attempt has been made by LE to find her in 39 years! I guess it wouldn't look good if LE suddenly started trying to look for her now, and I guess that is what putting together an age progession would be.

Interestingly, a woman and her daughter disappeared from Brewster NY 19 years ago, and their bodies, which were found 19 years ago, were only identified 1 month ago, because that was when LE were notified that they were missing. They had to identify the bodies, which they've finally done, before they could id the suspect in their murder. Where is Sylvia? When they find her, they'll possibly finally know what happened. I guess this is what LE is waiting for-but we shouldn't have to be the ones combing the lists of UIDs; LE should be doing it. Rose, I'm very glad that you took the initiative to contact Kim, or nobody'd look at the matches. It bothers me that LE seems to have dismissed her disappearance because it's been so long.

Bbm: Guess my question here is, was publicity ever requested of LE on Sylvia’s MP case? If not, why not? If so, and LE declined, why? Maybe this is Sylvia’s brother’s question, too, because I don’t think he had much of a say while their parents were alive.

Until it is known why the “no publicity” was never changed on her MP status (or classification to endangered missing if there was reason), in 1975, or at any time in the 39 years after her disappearance, I have reservations about viewing her as anything but a run-away, Why? Because it is a ten-fifteen minute car, or bus ride to the SI Ferry and boom, you are in Manhattan, that very night. I guess I don’t think Sylvia was passive, as has been expressed about her by some. So many things could have happened but whichever way it went, I think she was angry, fighting, and potentially very impulsive that night.

Bbm: It seems there is no stand-out motive, or evidence of a cover up, and no evidence (body, clothes, purse, or the engagement ring). But, I agree, they (LE/CCS) may indeed have something keeping her case open, some piece that will solve her mystery if her remains are found.

Re: UIDs: you know, I am not sure how it works, but someone (LE, WS, other) is looking at matches because there are other rule outs on Sylvia (not initiated by us) that have been linked on this thread by WS members. The L.A. UID that you brought forth with the similar name is really nuanced, Jmoose. So, it is a good thing you are on the case! How anyone crosschecked the MPs & UPs before computer databases is beyond me…

I was reading about Kristine Kupka - 5 months pregnant, and missing from Brooklyn since 1998. There is a clear motive and a suspect, but no remains found in this case. – Why LE is so hamstrung, so stuck, has been her sister’s ongoing nightmare. She details the health and monetary toll it has taken to pound LE regularly, hire a private investigator, and keep it alive in the press, even renting a Billboard at $6,000 per month.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...28-New-York-24-Oct-1998&p=2552957#post2552957

–So difficult, there is the threshold of one’s wellbeing at stake, every day. It’s a pretty delicate balance for those that have been touched by, and forever changed by a disappearance.

 

[rosemadderlake]

In thinking about the PI who turned up nothing in 1975 - I can understand how the financial records may be lost, i.e. name and address of PI, but were there no notes? Was the 1975 PI definitely from Staten Island, or another borough?

Any idea if the PI was licensed in the State of NY? One can only check the history six years back online, but I would think LE could initiate a check with a name?

http://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/history_certify.html

Also, I can't help but think, and especially with the technology available today, that a current PI may be even more helpful than trying to track down someone from almost 40 years ago... just a thought.

 

[Jmoose]

]In thinking about the PI who turned up nothing in 1975 - I can understand how the financial records may be lost, i.e. name and address of PI, but were there no notes? Was the 1975 PI definitely from Staten Island, or another borough[/B]?

Any idea if the PI was licensed in the State of NY? One can only check the history six years back online, but I would think LE could initiate a check with a name?

http://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/history_certify.html

Also, I can't help but think, and especially with the technology available today, that a current PI may be even more helpful than trying to track down someone from almost 40 years ago... just a thought.

BBM-This was a question to her brother, and I urged him to start going through the parents' papers, if he hadn't already. I am sure this must have been very difficult, and it seems as if he may have done it, because he added the new photos after we spoke. I don't know if he came across the information about the PI or not, but to me it seems likely that there were some notes or documents related to the PI-it would surprise me very much if the Lwowskis didn't keep something. Hiring a new PI at this time is an interesting idea. This might be more helpful if she is still alive somewhere, and less so if she isn't, in my opinion. I wonder if a new PI would be able to speak with the BF/F? I think that MMQC might be inclined to speak to a new PI, if LE doesn't want to talk to her. Personally, I'd like to see a billboard erected with a big picture of Sylvia on it-with an age progression. I know they're expensive, but-what other options are there?

 

[Jmoose]

There's no way of telling what LE's done, or what they've said to Sylvia's brother; I suspect there have been some things that they have said that has discouraged him from some of the more mainstream action that he might have been prepared to take. I know he was ready to offer a reward for information leading to finding her, and yet...nothing. MMQC was interested in talking to LE, but they apparently only wanted to speak to her when her husband was dying, and not after he was gone. There are several reasons why it could be going this way, as we've all discussed-she could be living someplace else, and has indicated to LE that she wants no contact with any member of her family (39 years is a long time to stay mad at your family, but some people do). Or she could be dead, by any of several ways-suicide, murder or tragic accident.

I have a friend who was dating a creep years ago-this creep had a daughter from a prior relationship with a woman who moved herself and the daughter away someplace and the creep didn't know where they went. My friend felt terrible that her boyfriend couldn't see his daughter, so my friend hired a private investigator to find them. She was only getting her boyfriend's side of the story-the PI found the former girlfriend; she told the PI that the creep was abusive and that she was deathly afraid of him, and begged the PI not to say where she was. The PI told my friend that he wasn't going to charge her for finding the girl's mother, even though he knew where she was because he was not going to tell my friend.
My point is that if the police in Sylvia's case know that she was out there someplace, they would tell her brother that-but they are under no obligation to tell him where she is. I don't think they think she's out there living a happy life (or even an unhappy one). I guess witness protection is a possibilty, but really not on my radar. I would be curious to know where LE ranks suicide. My conversation with Det. Savage indicated that he may think it's not so likely, since it's hard to hide your own body in the metro NY area.

 

[Odyssey]

One of the biggest things I still struggle with is that Sylvia's disappearance was never attributed to Rand.

Everyone I know of that went missing from SI during that time (except Brenda Crowley who was known to have run away) was mentioned in connection to Rand by LE and/or the media. At first I thought Rand's presumed victims were all children, until I saw that he'd been linked to Ethel Atwell and Shin Lee, both adults.

I truly believe that if LE really had no solid theory on what happened to her, she would have at least been mentioned as a possible Rand victim.

When Rand was finally caught in the late 1980s, I don't think the "No publicity" notation would have stopped them from mentioning her, because Rand was big news.

I think they had to have strongly believed something else happened that had nothing to do with Rand.

JMO