NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[rosemadderlake]

I was thinking more about how kids are placed in homerooms based on what their last name starts with. I remember till this day a boy I had a crush on who sat in front of me in homeroom for several years in a row. Years later I would look up his name to see if I could find him and what happened in his life. I have sent e-mails to two people, hoping I get a response. I have talked to one who knew her a while back, but she didn't know her that well. Just that she was a nice person and quiet. Did anyone ever find a list of Wagner grads? I wrote down the names of the ones she was in the band with and sent out several e-mails but nothing panned out from that.

Bbm: No list of grads - but the Wagner posts / Wagnerian newspaper articles are bundled at the beginning of this thread. Wonder if her brother has her Wagner year book. Sorority would be listed there...

 

[alliemay]

Yes if we had a year book that would be great. I wonder if her brother has one.

 

[Jmoose]

That would be a good idea, would you try that for us?

Sure-but of which sorority was she a member? I tried to find it around midnight; needless to say, not successful. I will try to see if we had that info here. Or maybe her brother knows

 

[alliemay]

Not sure, was it in the engagement announcement?

 

[Jmoose]

Skeet-the engagement announcement stated that she was a member of the Alpha Tau Mu music sorority, but I can't tell if this was her only sorority, and the one which had a sorority house on campus. I want to see if there is another more mainstream sorority to contact.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

It feels like we're back at the beginning again-I am still surprised that EL thought, for so long, that MMQC knew where Sylvia was; remarkable that BF/F could have been easier to trust than her closest friend. We have assumed that the PI spoke directly to BF/F, based on the "information" that he told 3 different stories to 3 different people about how and where she jumped out of the car. Do we know if the PI spoke directly to MMQC, too? I can't remember-where is Epiphany? She always knows this stuff

I don't think MMQC ever said if the PI asked her any questions. All I remember her saying is that her Dad talked to the Assistant DA, she never relayed to us what the ADA found out. I'm sure if they got the ADA involved, he wouldn't just investigate and not tell them the outcome of that investigation. So why even tell us the ADA was involved and not follow up with the rest of the story?

I really like the idea of hiring a new PI. I can't understand why there isn't anything to do at this point, whether it's hiring a new PI, or some publicity now. Too bad the Staten Island Advance article last September didn't turn anything up.

BBM1&2: Skeet is right. I don't remember what we were talking about at the time, but I looked it up and mentioned this some pages back, but I believe still in this thread. In what MMQC told us about the PI, she did not share that she spoke to him/her (prob a him, but who knows). However, she did not specifically say she did NOT speak to him, if you get my drift.

BBM3: I have always assumed that JL did do this, sometime after EL died, when he began looking into this stuff on his own. Otherwise, how could he have come up with the below? Simply given how little time it appears he has to devote to this, could he possibly have uncovered these things on his own? IMO, no.

Thread 1, Post 806, by ASWDeerHunter, 3/39/2013:

"As far as the overall search has now proceeded, All mental hospitals in the U.S. were checked, passport office for a match, all airport, cruise ships, charters, any means of transport out of the U. S. were checked. All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states. To this present time all rocks have been turned."

​

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Skeet-the engagement announcement stated that she was a member of the Alpha Tau Mu music sorority, but I can't tell if this was her only sorority, and the one which had a sorority house on campus. I want to see if there is another more mainstream sorority to contact.

JMO, but I think you can assume it was. In talking about the search w EL, MMQC always referenced "the sorority" as if there were only one.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM3: I have always assumed that JL did do this, sometime after EL died, when he began looking into this stuff on his own. Otherwise, how could he have come up with the below? Simply given how little time it appears he has to devote to this, could he possibly have uncovered these things on his own? IMO, no.

Thread 1, Post 806, by ASWDeerHunter, 3/39/2013:

"As far as the overall search has now proceeded, All mental hospitals in the U.S. were checked, passport office for a match, all airport, cruise ships, charters, any means of transport out of the U. S. were checked. All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states. To this present time all rocks have been turned."

​

Quoting myself to comment further on ASWDH's post:

Perhaps only a report from a PI could have given ASWDH the confidence that all that was true, including the part BBM, because all in all it's an extraordinary statement that, to my eye, borders on the impossible/grandiose.

• If in fact all IUDs were checked, what possible network was used and why is SL not excluded on many that we see? Could it possibly only be a recordkeeping issue?
• Re all those transportation possibilities, for which years? All?
• Re mental hospitals, I suspect there is some kind of communications network for these types of inquiries, which I think would be done with a photo, so I think this is possible (not that it gets at the possibility that SL died anonymously while institutionalized, though I personally think that's pretty unlikely). But what about closed institutions?

One more thing. (I know I'm way behind here, but I'm dealing with the internet connection from h__l.) One question I have about the mental hospital question: How would she get admitted in the first place? While she was at the right age for the possibility of psychopathic onset, she would have to have come in contact with either LE or a hospital in order for someone to commit her to their care, right? I don't see her admitting herself in that state, esp. if she didn't know who she was. And it's not like these places roam the streets with a net. IOW, there would have to be a record, right? And JMO but I also think that with the passage of time and/or treatment, knowledge of who she was would likely come back to her at some point. Again, MOO.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1&2: Skeet is right. I don't remember what we were talking about at the time, but I looked it up and mentioned this some pages back, but I believe still in this thread. In what MMQC told us about the PI, she did not share that she spoke to him/her (prob a him, but who knows). However, she did not specifically say she did NOT speak to him, if you get my drift.

BBM3: I have always assumed that JL did do this, sometime after EL died, when he began looking into this stuff on his own. Otherwise, how could he have come up with the below? Simply given how little time it appears he has to devote to this, could he possibly have uncovered these things on his own? IMO, no.

Thread 1, Post 806, by ASWDeerHunter, 3/39/2013:

"As far as the overall search has now proceeded, All mental hospitals in the U.S. were checked, passport office for a match, all airport, cruise ships, charters, any means of transport out of the U. S. were checked. All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states. To this present time all rocks have been turned."

​

Hi GBMG!
Bbm: Thank you for bringing this forward. You know, I assumed this was a generalized statement from an initial search and the findings of the 1975 PI. And when JL said that the PI had "turned up nothing" that only one PI was being referred to.

I guess my question is how is it possible to check all of these things 35 + years retro? Wonder why it wasn't it mentioned that there were two private investigators?

 

[Jmoose]

Alpha Tau Mu isn't a sorority; at least now, it is a service fraternity, which could be joined by male and female students. I wonder if, in 1975 at Wagner, it was a music association limited to women? That sorority house would have accomodated women only. Could there have been another with which Sylvia was associated? Was she a DZ, an AD Pi, an Alpha Omicron Pi? The all existed at Wagner in the 60's. Alpha Delta Pi still does

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi GBMG!
Bbm: Thank you for bringing this forward. You know, I assumed this was a generalized statement from an initial search and the findings of the 1975 PI. And when JL said that the PI had "turned up nothing" that only one PI was being referred to.

I guess my question is how is it possible to check all of these things 35 + years retro? Wonder why it wasn't it mentioned that there were two private investigators?

You could be right about it coming from the first PI's search. Two PIs (or someone's professional help) was my assumption only. But there are a couple of reasons I can't give it up as a possibility:

• ASWDH says very little ... we are left to guess. I am considering what isn't said.
• ASWDH always seemed to know/share so little about EL's search, even in PMs, so I assumed the info couldn't have come from that PI work (IOW, he hadn't found the papers yet).
• Note the language of his March post: "... To this present time all rocks have been turned."

If these findings are post-EL's death, that was my Q as well: How is it even possible to know that stuff 40 years later (I was probably writing the second post on that one while you were responding to my first one)?! But heck, think about it, how was it even possible in 1975, with fewer electronic information-sharing communication options? Esp. re the point about the IUDs? That alone would have required telephone calls or letters to every coroner in the country!

In the end, I find the statements very -- ambitious -- regardless of whose work it's based on or when the work was done. JMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Alpha Tau Mu isn't a sorority; at least now, it is a service fraternity, which could be joined by male and female students. I wonder if, in 1975 at Wagner, it was a music association limited to women? That sorority house would have accomodated women only. Could there have been another with which Sylvia was associated? Was she a DZ, an AD Pi, an Alpha Omicron Pi? The all existed at Wagner in the 60's. Alpha Delta Pi still does

I don't believe it was a house at all. IIRC, MMQC referred to it as a "floor" in a building. Perhaps the student center? A few offices and meeting space for the club/sorority? Like an honor society, more than what you typically think of when hearing the word "sorority." I don't think she was a member of one of the Greek houses. JMO -- just how I read it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Quoting myself to comment further on ASWDH's post:

Perhaps only a report from a PI could have given ASWDH the confidence that all that was true, including the part BBM, because all in all it's an extraordinary statement that, to my eye, borders on the impossible/grandiose.

• If in fact all IUDs were checked, what possible network was used and why is SL not excluded on many that we see? Could it possibly only be a recordkeeping issue?
• Re all those transportation possibilities, for which years? All?
  [*]Re mental hospitals, I suspect there is some kind of communications network for these types of inquiries, which I think would be done with a photo, so I think this is possible (not that it gets at the possibility that SL died anonymously while institutionalized, though I personally think that's pretty unlikely). But what about closed institutions?

One more thing. (I know I'm way behind here, but I'm dealing with the internet connection from h__l.) One question I have about the mental hospital question: How would she get admitted in the first place? While she was at the right age for the possibility of psychopathic onset, she would have to have come in contact with either LE or a hospital in order for someone to commit her to their care, right? I don't see her admitting herself in that state, esp. if she didn't know who she was. And it's not like these places roam the streets with a net. IOW, there would have to be a record, right? And JMO but I also think that with the passage of time and/or treatment, knowledge of who she was would likely come back to her at some point. Again, MOO.

Bbm: I don't know how a sweeping search of still existing, or an archival search of the closed mental hospitals could have been accomplished with the privacy laws and without some kind of legal mechanism. –Seems like one would need FBI tools & access…

The mental institutions, 60's & 70's especially, were so overrun with not only seriously ill patients but were also repositories for runaways and the homeless with mental issues, mental effects from drug overdoses and suicide watches. I suspect the paperwork and tracking reflects this chaos, too. In reading through some of the abandoned institution websites there are posts from former patients - many varied experiences ranging from long term harrowing to short term "the best thing that happened to me".

It got me thinking about how one could slip under the radar and end up there... I think Sylvia could have done many things of her own volition as an adult, off the radar, and she was not in the news headlines as a missing person.

I didn’t think it was the most likely scenario either, but in the realm of possibilities -she could have snapped, (attempted suicide) and committed herself, or was aided by someone to get help. And, who would have known (especially if some time had passed) because she was considered a runaway with a “Will Not Handle” MP file… -The number of transients of this era is enormous. IF the mental hospitals were not checked beyond Staten Island in 1975 - then this scenario goes back on my list as possible.

O/T but perhaps relevant: My friend who was in and out of NJ State mental hospital was VOGUE model gorgeous, bright as they come, and then BOOM, she snapped. She had it all going for her and was the last person that anyone thought would snap and end up in a psyche ward... Aw, there was a sweetness about her too that was never lost and last I saw her she had found love, and a job, and seemed really happy. So, I guess this is part of where I am coming from when I think of those who are sure "this could never happen to her, she was much too together".

IMO

 

[rosemadderlake]

You could be right about it coming from the first PI's search. Two PIs (or someone's professional help) was my assumption only. But there are a couple of reasons I can't give it up as a possibility:

• ASWDH says very little ... we are left to guess. I am considering what isn't said.
• ASWDH always seemed to know/share so little about EL's search, even in PMs, so I assumed the info couldn't have come from that PI work (IOW, he hadn't found the papers yet).
• Note the language of his March post: "... To this present time all rocks have been turned."

If these findings are post-EL's death, that was my Q as well: How is it even possible to know that stuff 40 years later (I was probably writing the second post on that one while you were responding to my first one)?! But heck, think about it, how was it even possible in 1975, with fewer electronic information-sharing communication options? Esp. re the point about the IUDs? That alone would have required telephone calls or letters to every coroner in the country!

In the end, I find the statements very -- ambitious -- regardless of whose work it's based on or when the work was done. JMO

Well, we really are back at the beginning... and I really agree with the BBM ..."In the end".... statement. -And the astute observations listed that support it.
IMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Bbm: I don't know how a sweeping search of still existing, or an archival search of the closed mental hospitals could have been accomplished with the privacy laws and without some kind of legal mechanism. –Seems like one would need FBI tools & access…

The mental institutions, 60's & 70's especially, were so overrun with not only seriously ill patients but were also repositories for runaways and the homeless with mental issues, mental effects from drug overdoses and suicide watches. I suspect the paperwork and tracking reflects this chaos, too. In reading through some of the abandoned institution websites there are posts from former patients - many varied experiences ranging from long term harrowing to short term "the best thing that happened to me".

It got me thinking about how one could slip under the radar and end up there... I think Sylvia could have done many things of her own volition as an adult, off the radar, and she was not in the news headlines as a missing person.

I didn’t think it was the most likely scenario either, but in the realm of possibilities -she could have snapped, (attempted suicide) and committed herself, or was aided by someone to get help. And, who would have known (especially if some time had passed) because she was considered a runaway with a “Will Not Handle” MP file… -The number of transients of this era is enormous. IF the mental hospitals were not checked beyond Staten Island in 1975 - then this scenario goes back on my list as possible.

O/T but perhaps relevant: My friend who was in and out of NJ State mental hospital was VOGUE model gorgeous, bright as they come, and then BOOM, she snapped. She had it all going for her and was the last person that anyone thought would snap and end up in a psyche ward... Aw, there was a sweetness about her too that was never lost and last I saw her she had found love, and a job, and seemed really happy. So, I guess this is part of where I am coming from when I think of those who are sure "this could never happen to her, she was much too together".

IMO

BBM1: I see your point. Perhaps it would be done through LE or family services agency. It's exactly for the reasons you give -- the way these places end up often temporarily (at least) housing people with extraordinary psychological problems that prevent them from self-identifying -- that I think such a network must exist, at least today. I don't think a network that allows you to send all mental hospitals a photo of, and info about, an MP would violate any privacy laws. Frankly, I don't think someone who's lost their memory or self-knowledge due to psychopathy (to paint the worst case picture the earlier posts mentioned) would be consulted about whether they should be ID'd. Potentially anyway, family contacts can be a route to positive outcomes for the patient, as they can supply patient info (e.g., a possible trauma that got the patient where s/he is), family history info (genetic basis for psychopathy), participate in treatment options (e.g., family therapy), offer payment, and offer release possibilities. I realize that ID'g the patient to "anyone who asks" could pose dangerous consequences for the patient, but I think this mostly happens in movies. If the hospital matches the MP info they receive to a patient, they don't have to let the party know. They can pursue the appropriate channels. My guess is that any such info sent this way would include an LE contact, but JMO. I don't think I'm Pollyanna'g it up here ... but I could be. I think mental hospitals are such a source for MPs that this kind of communication would have to evolve.

BBM2: So sad. Yes, I know this can happen, and it's just tragic. This kind of mental illness is just beyond our understanding. There's so little that can be done to "cure" anyone who has it. SL being so together is not the part that makes the possibility remote to me. It's the part about her being unidentified in the system added to the mix, together with the addition of an accidental death and on-site burial while committed. Presumably, some clues would emerge over time that would at least tie a person to a place, if not a name (especially someone who looks like they've been well-cared for). I know the possibility is out there, and probably can't be completely discounted, but I think it's remote. JMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Well, we really are back at the beginning... and I really agree with the BBM ..."In the end".... statement. -And the astute observations listed that support it.
IMO

Thanks, Rose. As we've been talking, it occurred to me that ASWDH's statements themselves may have been ambitious, perhaps more so than the actions they are based on. For example, we know that SL was entered into NamUS in 2010 ... maybe that is what led ASWDH to make the statement that all "All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states" were checked? IOW, translation: We have done what one needs to do to make this possible. It's around that time that the DNA sample was likely collected as well. Could ASWDH have motivated LE to do this work in 2010, rather than a PI? I suppose that's possible too. Like everything else on this thread, WTF knows! LOL. To your point, when have we ever not been stuck at the beginning.

 

[Odyssey]

I just had something kind of going through my mind... I'm not sure if it was ever discussed, but I'm guessing SL was raised Jewish (based on what we've heard about her family history), and BF/F, based on the assumption that he is Italian, was probably raised Catholic.

Does anyone know what the feeling was like in the 1970's about this? I know in my parents day such a marriage was frowned on by both religions. This wouldn't explain anything about her disappearance, but possibly why we get that sense of indifference from their families toward each other.

I did not grow up with any religion and have never practiced one, so I don't know if it was still that way in the 1970's. I'd guess it was, to an extent, at least with the older generations. My dad was the son of an Italian father and a Jewish mother. He never met his Jewish relatives until he was an adult, his mom was pretty much disowned by them for marrying a Catholic. I think he finally met them in the early 70's.

The Catholic side of his family was not as harsh about it, but there was still tension with them when he was growing up.

 

[alliemay]

I think MMQC said that Sylvia did not belong to any churches, she made it sound like the family did not practice any religion. I have a feeling though that EL belonged to something with a Jewish connection though, like maybe she did this on her own. Not sure why I'm thinking that. I can understand the frowning on thing though, my own parents expected my sisters and I to only marry someone in the same faith as we were.

 

[Jmoose]

A cousin (Catholic) married a Jewish man, and had 3 children with him, and was raising them in the Jewish faith. Her brother, a Roman Catholic priest, baptised the kids surreptitiously and quickly, at my aunt's request. People have some pretty strong feelings about this. We don't have such a problem with it in the "New Millenium", but in the 70's, people really struggled with it (maybe people struggle with it now, too, but then it was a very, very big deal). While Sylvia and her brother may not have been raised as Jews, their mother may have struggled-and as Skeet said, may have pursued her faith by herself. I haven't gotten the sense from her brother that this was a huge problem between Sylvia and CC, but could certainly explain why the families immediately retreated back their corners after Sylvia's disappearance

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think MMQC said that Sylvia did not belong to any churches, she made it sound like the family did not practice any religion. I have a feeling though that EL belonged to something with a Jewish connection though, like maybe she did this on her own. Not sure why I'm thinking that. I can understand the frowning on thing though, my own parents expected my sisters and I to only marry someone in the same faith as we were.

MMQC said SL was raised Catholic, but the Ls did not go to church regularly. ASWDH made it clear Judaism was not part of their lives. Having read so much about the secrets kept by those who were in Eastern Europe during WWII, like you, Skeet, I am not completely convinced it wasn't part of EL's life at one time, but that's pure speculation on my part (assisted by MMQC's recollection of a tattoo and ASWSH's post about the rest of EL's family dying in WWII).

I (and I believe others) long ago speculated that the fact that both parties thought they were Catholic at the time they were engaged may have been shaken up by the spilling of family secrets (perhaps by a drunken father at the graduation party?) and caused a breakup the night of the fight, but neither the spilling nor the breakup are validated by anyone. Speculation only.

BBM: I think this is less of an issue for people who don't have strong connections to the church, but JMO. My Jewish college roommate in 1974 married an Italian Roman Catholic, and they were from Long Island. And yet I know that today there are still people whose families would have a problem with that.