NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[rosemadderlake]

I just had something kind of going through my mind... I'm not sure if it was ever discussed, but I'm guessing SL was raised Jewish (based on what we've heard about her family history), and BF/F, based on the assumption that he is Italian, was probably raised Catholic.

Does anyone know what the feeling was like in the 1970's about this? I know in my parents day such a marriage was frowned on by both religions. This wouldn't explain anything about her disappearance, but possibly why we get that sense of indifference from their families toward each other.

I did not grow up with any religion and have never practiced one, so I don't know if it was still that way in the 1970's. I'd guess it was, to an extent, at least with the older generations. My dad was the son of an Italian father and a Jewish mother. He never met his Jewish relatives until he was an adult, his mom was pretty much disowned by them for marrying a Catholic. I think he finally met them in the early 70's.

The Catholic side of his family was not as harsh about it, but there was still tension with them when he was growing up.

Bbm -yes, it was discussed - one of the issues was how, and if faith might have come into play regarding abortion views. IIRC: MMQC said Sylvia was raised Catholic but the Lwowskis were not a church going family. In the context of EL’s surviving the Holocaust - DH said – ‘Yea, were Jewish if that helps’. –(Something to that effect - paraphrasing DH). So, I think EL’s origins and faith were definitely not overt.

Interfaith marriages were contentious back then and I think at the heart of many elopements. One was expected to convert to another’s religion – raise children in one faith. The contrast is perhaps most stark in the Catholic/Jewish pairings – both very strong and well defined religions.

My Jewish cousins are from interfaith marriage –the Episcopal side of my family is pretty loose and accepting, but in the eyes of general public opinion, it was met with shock and awe back in the ‘70’s.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original trimmed by me

In the context of EL’s surviving the Holocaust - DH said – ‘Yea, we’re all Jewish if that helps’. –(Something to that effect - paraphrasing DH).

Unfortunately the difference between "we're" (we are) and "were" (past tense of are) makes a difference here and it's hard to say which one he means. Initially, he's talking about EL's family that died, and I thought he was saying "they were" (BBM below) about only the ones who died. Was the choice of the word "survivors" a mistake based on the Q I asked? He may have meant "victims" -- at least in part -- but it's majorly confusing.

Looking at post 381 now I think he may also be including EL -- IOW, yes she was a survivor, but he meant victims for the rest? Do you agree?

The distinction is I don't think he means to include himself but truly means "they were" not "we're."

Here are the posts from thread 2. I am finding that the single post URL is not working the way it used to, so numbers but no links.

Post 373
"Moved from Germany in 1962, lived at Fort Wadsworth the to Goodall Street. The rest of the family in Germany were killed."

Post 379 (re EL being Jewish)
"NO SHE WASN'T. She was Polish, born in Germany with the last name Czerlinski."

Post 381 (in response to my Q: "Oh, I'm so sorry -- so Eva was a Holocaust survivor?")
"If it would help find answers, yea, were Jewish and were all Holocaust survivors."​

And here's MMQC re the religion question:

Post 1043 (thread 1 to Rose's Q: "Was Sylvia a member of a church or synagogue?")
"Not a church going family. Mine was, so I was dragged to church every Sunday."

Post 736 (thread 2)"Raised Catholic."​

 

[rosemadderlake]

Thanks, Rose. As we've been talking, it occurred to me that ASWDH's statements themselves may have been ambitious, perhaps more so than the actions they are based on. For example, we know that SL was entered into NamUS in 2010 ... maybe that is what led ASWDH to make the statement that all "All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states" were checked? IOW, translation: We have done what one needs to do to make this possible. It's around that time that the DNA sample was likely collected as well. Could ASWDH have motivated LE to do this work in 2010, rather than a PI? I suppose that's possible too. Like everything else on this thread, WTF knows! LOL. To your point, when have we ever not been stuck at the beginning.

BBM: -I think you may be exactly right, here - maybe it was LE who ran Sylvia's numbers (SS#, Drivers, & Passport) through their "wide coverage" databases in 2010 to fill out the search requirements... His DNA samples were given, her fingerprints submitted, and she was entered into NamUS. This could be when a number of UP "rule outs" that we have noticed were determined as well. And, DH's confidence that 'all rocks have been turned' would make sense if LE turned up no activity on her in 35 years.

So, this is all making a lot more sense because how could all of the above be accomplished in 1975? Maybe the Rockefellers could do it on a national level back then. I have a hunch there is only one PI. If there was a more current investigator wouldn't he/she have tracked down the first (1975 PI)? Or, be contacted by DH to do so, now?

So, the 1975 PI was hired to try to find out what was going on because because they felt they weren't getting a straight answer - I do get the impression the PI spoke to the BFF, back then, soon after her disappearance. (imo).

 

[rosemadderlake]

Original trimmed by me


Unfortunately the difference between "we're" (we are) and "were" (past tense of are) makes a difference here and it's hard to say which one he means. Initially, he's talking about EL's family that died, and I thought he was saying "they were" (BBM below) about only the ones who died. Was the choice of the word "survivors" a mistake based on the Q I asked? He may have meant "victims" -- at least in part -- but it's majorly confusing.

Looking at post 381 now I think he may also be including EL -- IOW, yes she was a survivor, but he meant victims for the rest? Do you agree?

The distinction is I don't think he means to include himself but truly means "they were" not "we're."

Here are the posts from thread 2. I am finding that the single post URL is not working the way it used to, so numbers but no links.

Post 373
"Moved from Germany in 1962, lived at Fort Wadsworth the to Goodall Street. The rest of the family in Germany were killed."

Post 379 (re EL being Jewish)
"NO SHE WASN'T. She was Polish, born in Germany with the last name Czerlinski."

Post 381 (in response to my Q: "Oh, I'm so sorry -- so Eva was a Holocaust survivor?")
"If it would help find answers, yea, were Jewish and were all Holocaust survivors."​

And here's MMQC re the religion question:

Post 1043 (thread 1 to Rose's Q: "Was Sylvia a member of a church or synagogue?")
"Not a church going family. Mine was, so I was dragged to church every Sunday."

Post 736 (thread 2)"Raised Catholic."​

Bbm: Thanks for bringing the posts forward! And for clarifying the were / we're. It does make a difference. (in fact I edited my previous post -DH paraphrase "we're all" to were.)



"Looking at post 381 now I think he may also be including EL -- IOW, yes she was a survivor, but he meant victims for the rest? Do you agree?"


Yes, absolutely. But it is confusing because I think he is referring to her/EL's family (they were killed) so it should read victim, yet she/EL was the survivor. And that was how I interpreted it at the time... but it was a confusing kind of flippant answer to a serious subject that still somehow conveyed a mindset of those who lived on post WWII. And perhaps the unjustness of living though someone being taken from this family, again. (reinterpretation)

As a side note - I have wondered if EL had any family that managed to survive/evade the German invasion in Poland.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM: -I think you may be exactly right, here - maybe it was LE who ran Sylvia's numbers (SS#, Drivers, & Passport) through their "wide coverage" databases in 2010 to fill out the search requirements... His DNA samples were given, her fingerprints submitted, and she was entered into NamUS. This could be when a number of UP "rule outs" that we have noticed were determined as well. And, DH's confidence that 'all rocks have been turned' would make sense if LE turned up no activity on her in 35 years.

So, this is all making a lot more sense because how could all of the above be accomplished in 1975? Maybe the Rockefellers could do it on a national level back then. I have a hunch there is only one PI. If there was a more current investigator wouldn't he/she have tracked down the first (1975 PI)? Or, be contacted by DH to do so, now?

So, the 1975 PI was hired to try to find out what was going on because because they felt they weren't getting a straight answer - I do get the impression the PI spoke to the BFF, back then, soon after her disappearance. (imo).

BBM1: You are probably right, as far as we can know these things. It's as good a guess as mine anyway -- somebody had to be helping ASWDH get those answers, and LE had the tools. Good Q as to whether a new PI would contact the first PI ... unclear to me whether it would be worth the trouble, as 39 years is a long time and it doesn't seem like the first one spent a lot of time on the job. As usual, we have many more questions than answers.

BBM2: I think this is as "rock solid" as things get around here, given the "three stories."

 

[Odyssey]

Could SL's father have been Catholic? Maybe EL converted while still in Germany and that was why she survived? I can't remember when they married, it may have been well after the war. Maybe she went though the same scenario as my grandmother, disowned by her family for marrying a Catholic? That could explain why they never went to church. We never did either, I think my dad was too disgusted with what religion did to his family.

Even though my family has some Jewish roots, I've never quite understood, when it comes to the Holocaust, the difference between Jewish as a nationality and Jewish as a religion.

I understand that people of Israeli heritage are called Jewish but it seems that many of the Jewish people involved in the holocaust were native Europeans. At the same time, someone of Jewish faith would more likely claim to have converted to Christianity before they would get tattoos of Hitler on their chest, imo... that has always confused me.

ETA: I am not implying that the Hitler image has anything to do with the possible EL tattoo. Just mentioned that because it's something I heard people did to avoid being shot.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Bbm: Thanks for bringing the posts forward! And for clarifying the were / we're. It does make a difference. (in fact I edited my previous post -DH paraphrase "we're all" to were.)

"Looking at post 381 now I think he may also be including EL -- IOW, yes she was a survivor, but he meant victims for the rest? Do you agree?"

Yes, absolutely. But it is confusing because I think he is referring to her/EL's family (they were killed) so it should read victim, yet she/EL was the survivor. And that was how I interpreted it at the time... but it was a confusing kind of flippant answer to a serious subject that still somehow conveyed a mindset of those who lived on post WWII. And perhaps the unjustness of living though someone being taken from this family, again. (reinterpretation)

As a side note - I have wondered if EL had any family that managed to survive/evade the German invasion in Poland.

You're welcome re the quotes

BBM1: Yes, the tone was -- troubling really. If nothing else, it shows that the issue was fraught for the family, IMO -- as you might expect it to be. But at the same time, it put the factuality of the statement in question for me, because I read the tone as "Sure, if you want it to be true, I'll say it's true." I think that's why it never felt solid to me.

That said, a few posts ago, when I revisited my speculation about the possible revelation of family secrets being the cause of a possible breakup, it occurred to me as the best thing put forward so far as justification for the kick at the party. I mean, what if someone at the party made an anti-semetic joke, and SL laughed ... I could see a mean drunk going for the juggler. That might just be life-disrupting enough to make SL react the way she did. I know we can't know, but it speaks to me. MOO

BBM2: Yes, so hard to know. But Germany, not Poland, right? -- acc. to ASWDH, they were ethnic Poles living in Germany. We know ASWDH said "the rest of the family in Germany were killed" but perhaps it all depends on how far out you go? Then again, back then, many generations of a family all lived and died in a single village.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Could SL's father have been Catholic? Maybe EL converted while still in Germany and that was why she survived? I can't remember when they married, it may have been well after the war. Maybe she went though the same scenario as my grandmother, disowned by her family for marrying a Catholic? That could explain why they never went to church. We never did either, I think my dad was too disgusted with what religion did to his family.

Even though my family has some Jewish roots, I've never quite understood, when it comes to the Holocaust, the difference between Jewish as a nationality and Jewish as a religion.

I understand that people of Israeli heritage are called Jewish but it seems that many of the Jewish people involved in the holocaust were native Europeans. At the same time, someone of Jewish faith would more likely claim to have converted to Christianity before they would get tattoos of Hitler on their chest, imo... that has always confused me.

ETA: I am not implying that the Hitler image has anything to do with the possible EL tattoo. Just mentioned that because it's something I heard people did to avoid being shot.

BBM1: Yes, that seems to be the link.

BBM2: Conversion didn't save you. The slaughter was about blood lines. It raises a good Q though. I wonder how she did survive. If she looked like SL when she was young, perhaps she could have lied and gotten away with it.

BBM3: See above. Acc. to ASWDH, all of her family were killed in camps.

BBM4: There are actually three parts to this: Religion, ethnicity, and nationality. As I have been told by Jewish friends (I am not Jewish but I have asked the same question), Jewish people are ethnically and religiously Jewish (excluding non-ancestrally Jewish converts [e.g., an Italian Catholic who converts to the Jewish religion] and Jews who convert to other religions [leaving them ethnically or nationally Jewish only -- in their own minds, at least -- devout family members might say you can't give up your Judaism].

IOW, historically, the characteristics of ethnicity and religion travelled as one. So, where my family was Italian as both a nationality and ethnicity, a Jew living in Italy would not identify as an Italian ethnically, only as a nationality.

BBM5: I think this is where you are getting confused. To be ethnically Jewish, you don't have to come from Israel. I think the thinking goes that if you are Jewish, your ethnicity derives at some point from there and makes you who you are. So you may be a German citizen without being German ethnically.

Hopefully that explanation isn't more confusing than the question

BBM6: Re the last bit, again, Hitler was trying to "cleanse" the gene pool, so conversion made no difference. Some Jewish people did indeed escape by hiding as part of non-Jewish families, but they had to be able to "pass" physically, or they could be found out. Hope that helps. It's a complicated subject and this is an oversimplification.

ETA: The Hitler tattoo on the chest is news to me in this context (I have heard of neo-Nazis having them). But one more thought: People who were not Jewish, but looked Jewish, were killed, too.

 

[Jmoose]

Rose-yes, I think you're right about what happened in 2010-LE probably did all of that, and that matches what Stacy Horn (The Restless Sleep) told me. She said that the police did put in a lot of time on Sylvia's case (not in 1975, but recently and 2010 seems likely). I think that she either had actual knowlege of this work, or more likely, she checked with the Cold Case Squad while we were emailing.

 

[rosemadderlake]

You're welcome re the quotes

BBM1: Yes, the tone was -- troubling really. If nothing else, it shows that the issue was fraught for the family, IMO -- as you might expect it to be. But at the same time, it put the factuality of the statement in question for me, because I read the tone as "Sure, if you want it to be true, I'll say it's true." I think that's why it never felt solid to me.

That said, a few posts ago, when I revisited my speculation about the possible revelation of family secrets being the cause of a possible breakup, it occurred to me as the best thing put forward so far as justification for the kick at the party. I mean, what if someone at the party made an anti-semetic joke, and SL laughed ... I could see a mean drunk going for the juggler. That might just be life-disrupting enough to make SL react the way she did. I know we can't know, but it speaks to me. MOO

BBM2: Yes, so hard to know. But Germany, not Poland, right? -- acc. to ASWDH, they were ethnic Poles living in Germany. We know ASWDH said "the rest of the family in Germany were killed" but perhaps it all depends on how far out you go? Then again, back then, many generations of a family all lived and died in a single village.

bbm -Definitely a hot button threshold was tapped - and maybe "yea" / "if that helps" has meaning as to some theories that were held about SL's disappearance?

bbm -Interesting thought.

bbm -Without knowing how long EL's family was established in Germany, I am wondering was there extended family in Poland; aunts, uncles, cousins. Were they killed, too?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

bbm -Definitely a hot button threshold was tapped - and maybe "yea" / "if that helps" has meaning as to some theories that were held about SL's disappearance?

bbm -Interesting thought.

bbm -Without knowing how long EL's family was established in Germany, I am wondering was there extended family in Poland; aunts, uncles, cousins. Were they killed, too?

BBM1: Maybe ... the tone of an earlier post on the subject did sort of seem like "been down that road, there's nothing there," but that could also have to do with his attitude toward the subject/past as well.

BBM2: I suppose that's possible. Who knows how much of the family lived in Germany and whether there was still family there -- and (now I see what you meant in your earlier post) whether they survived WWII. IIRC, the family name comes from a town/region in Poland (at some point in the family's evolution anyway).

 

[Jmoose]

Interesting that there were some Czerlinskis here around the NY area, and in Massachusetts. I wonder if it's a common Polish name?

 

[Odyssey]

BBM1: Yes, that seems to be the link.

BBM2: Conversion didn't save you. The slaughter was about blood lines. It raises a good Q though. I wonder how she did survive. If she looked like SL when she was young, perhaps she could have lied and gotten away with it.

BBM3: See above. Acc. to ASWDH, all of her family were killed in camps.

BBM4: There are actually three parts to this: Religion, ethnicity, and nationality. As I have been told by Jewish friends (I am not Jewish but I have asked the same question), Jewish people are ethnically and religiously Jewish (excluding non-ancestrally Jewish converts [e.g., an Italian Catholic who converts to the Jewish religion] and Jews who convert to other religions [leaving them ethnically or nationally Jewish only -- in their own minds, at least -- devout family members might say you can't give up your Judaism].

IOW, historically, the characteristics of ethnicity and religion travelled as one. So, where my family was Italian as both a nationality and ethnicity, a Jew living in Italy would not identify as an Italian ethnically, only as a nationality.

BBM5: I think this is where you are getting confused. To be ethnically Jewish, you don't have to come from Israel. I think the thinking goes that if you are Jewish, your ethnicity derives at some point from there and makes you who you are. So you may be a German citizen without being German ethnically.

Hopefully that explanation isn't more confusing than the question

BBM6: Re the last bit, again, Hitler was trying to "cleanse" the gene pool, so conversion made no difference. Some Jewish people did indeed escape by hiding as part of non-Jewish families, but they had to be able to "pass" physically, or they could be found out. Hope that helps. It's a complicated subject and this is an oversimplification.

ETA: The Hitler tattoo on the chest is news to me in this context (I have heard of neo-Nazis having them). But one more thought: People who were not Jewish, but looked Jewish, were killed, too.

bbm: It's been said that Jews tattooed Hitler on themselves because there was some code against shooting at an image of Hitler. So they would tattoo their chest so their heart wouldn't be shot at.

Thanks for the explanation, I have always found that very confusing - my confusion is kind of embarrassing since I guess I am part Jew by way of my paternal grandmother. I've never identified as Jewish though since I never practiced Judaism.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

bbm: It's been said that Jews tattooed Hitler on themselves because there was some code against shooting at an image of Hitler. So they would tattoo their chest so their heart wouldn't be shot at.

Thanks for the explanation, I have always found that very confusing - my confusion is kind of embarrassing since I guess I am part Jew by way of my paternal grandmother. I've never identified as Jewish though since I never practiced Judaism.

You're welcome, Odyssey

BBM: By any chance do you remember who told you this? No offense intended, but it sounds very unlikely to me -- and almost rings of an urban legend (you know, like "all they had to do was ..."). Not that that makes it impossible ... I just would like to know more. The reasons it seems unlikely to me: (1) I don't believe such a seemingly simple solution would have prevented a Jewish person from being killed during this brutal time (if it did, I think there would be more said about it). (2) I can't imagine, considering how the Jewish people were marginalized and deprived prior to being taken to camps that they would have had the wherewithal to do this. (3) I think doing it would be too aberrant to them.

Here's a good article on the tattooing done at Auschwitz.

Off the point of the Hitler tattoos, note in the third paragraph of the article how it speaks of using tattoos "to identify Poles, Jews, and most other prisoners." I know that Hitler ordered a "cleanse" of ethnic Poles in Germany at one point, and that there was an assault on Poland, but I don't know much about these things. I don't know whether, if by listing Poles separately in this article, they mean to suggest "non-Jewish Poles" or simply "Jews from Poland v. Jews from Germany." Does anyone know why Hitler targeted Poles? This is not OT, but could help us understand why EL's family was targeted. They mention Gypsys in the article too, who I've brought up before as being targets, but we know how they were looked upon across Europe. You don't hear a lot about why groups other than Jews and Romani were targeted. Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows about the Poles.

While the vast majority of those killed were Jews (6 million Jews), on this page, I see:
"Other Groups Targeted During the Holocaust:

• Roma (Gypsys)
• The Disabled
• Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, etc.)
• Communists
• Socialists
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Homosexuals"

ETA: Okay, acc. to my good friend Wikipedia, it looks like fully half of the Jews slaughtered were Polish, and many of the most famous camps are in Poland. While it's hard to separate out the non-Jewish, they seem to have included just about anyone in the way of the Nazis. Many Poles were exterminated for helping Jews (yet they did this anyway: "The number of Polish Jews kept in hiding by non-Jewish Poles was around 450,000.").

 

[rosemadderlake]

September 1, 1939
Germany invades Poland, initiating World War II in Europe.

World War II: Timeline
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007306

 

[rosemadderlake]

You're welcome, Odyssey

BBM: By any chance do you remember who told you this? No offense intended, but it sounds very unlikely to me -- and almost rings of an urban legend (you know, like "all they had to do was ..."). Not that that makes it impossible ... I just would like to know more. The reasons it seems unlikely to me: (1) I don't believe such a seemingly simple solution would have prevented a Jewish person from being killed during this brutal time (if it did, I think there would be more said about it). (2) I can't imagine, considering how the Jewish people were marginalized and deprived prior to being taken to camps that they would have had the wherewithal to do this. (3) I think doing it would be too aberrant to them.

Here's a good article on the tattooing done at Auschwitz.

Off the point of the Hitler tattoos, note in the third paragraph of the article how it speaks of using tattoos "to identify Poles, Jews, and most other prisoners." I know that Hitler ordered a "cleanse" of ethnic Poles in Germany at one point, and that there was an assault on Poland, but I don't know much about these things. I don't know whether, if by listing Poles separately in this article, they mean to suggest "non-Jewish Poles" or simply "Jews from Poland v. Jews from Germany." Does anyone know why Hitler targeted Poles? This is not OT, but could help us understand why EL's family was targeted. They mention Gypsys in the article too, who I've brought up before as being targets, but we know how they were looked upon across Europe. You don't hear a lot about why groups other than Jews and Romani were targeted. Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows about the Poles.

While the vast majority of those killed were Jews (6 million Jews), on this page, I see:
"Other Groups Targeted During the Holocaust:

• Roma (Gypsys)
• The Disabled
• Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, etc.)
• Communists
• Socialists
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Homosexuals"

ETA: Okay, acc. to my good friend Wikipedia, it looks like fully half of the Jews slaughtered were Polish, and many of the most famous camps are in Poland. While it's hard to separate out the non-Jewish, they seem to have included just about anyone in the way of the Nazis. Many Poles were exterminated for helping Jews (yet they did this anyway: "The number of Polish Jews kept in hiding by non-Jewish Poles was around 450,000.").

Bbm: This is where I wonder about extended family - maternal side of EL's family and extended on the paternal side.

 

[Odyssey]

You're welcome, Odyssey

BBM: By any chance do you remember who told you this? No offense intended, but it sounds very unlikely to me -- and almost rings of an urban legend (you know, like "all they had to do was ..."). Not that that makes it impossible ... I just would like to know more. The reasons it seems unlikely to me: (1) I don't believe such a seemingly simple solution would have prevented a Jewish person from being killed during this brutal time (if it did, I think there would be more said about it). (2) I can't imagine, considering how the Jewish people were marginalized and deprived prior to being taken to camps that they would have had the wherewithal to do this. (3) I think doing it would be too aberrant to them.

Here's a good article on the tattooing done at Auschwitz.

Off the point of the Hitler tattoos, note in the third paragraph of the article how it speaks of using tattoos "to identify Poles, Jews, and most other prisoners." I know that Hitler ordered a "cleanse" of ethnic Poles in Germany at one point, and that there was an assault on Poland, but I don't know much about these things. I don't know whether, if by listing Poles separately in this article, they mean to suggest "non-Jewish Poles" or simply "Jews from Poland v. Jews from Germany." Does anyone know why Hitler targeted Poles? This is not OT, but could help us understand why EL's family was targeted. They mention Gypsys in the article too, who I've brought up before as being targets, but we know how they were looked upon across Europe. You don't hear a lot about why groups other than Jews and Romani were targeted. Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows about the Poles.

While the vast majority of those killed were Jews (6 million Jews), on this page, I see:
"Other Groups Targeted During the Holocaust:

• Roma (Gypsys)
• The Disabled
• Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, etc.)
• Communists
• Socialists
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Homosexuals"

ETA: Okay, acc. to my good friend Wikipedia, it looks like fully half of the Jews slaughtered were Polish, and many of the most famous camps are in Poland. While it's hard to separate out the non-Jewish, they seem to have included just about anyone in the way of the Nazis. Many Poles were exterminated for helping Jews (yet they did this anyway: "The number of Polish Jews kept in hiding by non-Jewish Poles was around 450,000.").

BBM: It was being discussed on a documentary, probably 4-5 years ago. I don't recall what it was called, but it was a documentary about tattoos, not about the conflict. I remember that it was about different tattoos and what they mean, and I watched it thinking it might be helpful in researching UID's. It turned out that very little, if any mention was made about tattoos in the United States.

I'll see if I can figure out what it was, but probably won't have time until tonight. Hopefully it's on Youtube.

 

[Jmoose]

I was just reading Jan Cotta's thread-she disappeared in 1973 in New Jersey as a pregnant young woman. Today there was an entry with a link to an article which said the authorities are looking for a man that they want to speak to (they just referred to him as a man who knew her-and that he isn't a suspect). Interesting that the NJ authorities are looking to speak to this man after all of this time, and have created an age progression of Jan. Why can't this happen for Sylvia?

 

[rosemadderlake]

A couple of questions to our VIs about Sylvia’s physicals: It would really help in the search and crosschecking of the unidentified databases.

• What color hazel eyes? -Green/blue grey/ brown? (Because old color photos can be very inaccurate.)
• Was her hair light brown and highlighted to strawberry blond?
• What was her bra size?
• What was her shoe size?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Here is more information on the CA UID “Alison Lowell”. Info from Doe Network: She checked into the Cecil Hotel on 12.16 and fell to her death on 12.20.75. There were multiple scars on both wrists. They do indicate her eye color was brown/hazel.

Doe Network
http://doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase1419.html
Unidentified White Female
• The victim was discovered on December 20, 1975 in Los Angeles County, California
• Estimated Date of Death: 1975
________________________________________
Vital Statistics
• Estimated age: 20-30 years old
• Approximate Height and Weight: 5'4"; 118 lbs.
• Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown hair; brown/hazel eyes. Multiple scars to both wrists.
• Clothing: Blue sweater, second sweater blue, purple and black, navy blue pants, navy blue coat, black shoes and a beige bra. A black purse and a yellow-metal key.
• Fingerprints: Available
• Dentals: Not Available
________________________________________
Case History
The victim registered in room number 327 of the Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles on December 16, 1975 at 12.05.
On December 20, 1975 she fell or jumped from her 12th floor window onto the 2nd floor roof.

NamUs
https://identifyus.org/cases/4457
Circumstances from NamUs
The decedent was staying at the Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles. Had checked into the hotel under the name of " Alison Lowell". A Greyhound bus ticket purchased in Bakersfield, CA on 12/15/1975 was found on the dresser of the hotel room. No ID papers found in the room or with the decedent.