SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[Shlock Homes]

It will be interesting to see what the NYPD release about the timeline of the last 6 days before the sisters were found. One of the MSM articles made the statement that the sisters hadn't been in the water for long and frankly I was never sure what this meant exactly. Could the sisters have been in the water for 5-6 days and this mean they 'weren't in the water for a long time'?

I think they thought they weren't in the water long because they weren't bloated like most drowning victims. They probably looked normal. Plus the water is somewhat cold, so decomp would have been slow. But there had to be some bacterial action internally for them to float, and that would take several days in cooler waters. In tropical waters, apparently 24 hours is enough. But less than 6 hours?! Hardly.

 

[musicaljoke]

Is this even a real story? I mean, we've been told that the family came from Jeddah. Medina is a 4 hour drive north of Jeddah. Wasn't the mother and father involved in the ceremony? Nothing is even mentioned of them in the article. Very strange.

.

I don't know if the story is real or not, but it really is reported in that article. Real or not, it just adds another element of strangeness in a twisted story.

 

[OneEye]

Last NYT article - interesting question about how the Saudi embassy found out about the sisters seeking asylum and the NYT reporters seeming to question whether there was a leak from the US about the asylum issue

Saudi Sisters, Seeking Asylum, May Have Committed Suicide, Police Say

 

[borndem]

Welcome to Websleuths, dunwich !!​

 

[OneEye]

I don't know if the story is real or not, but it really is reported in that article. Real or not, it just adds another element of strangeness in a twisted story.

Has anyone found an article about the family claiming the bodies in NYC? I have searched and cannot figure out how the bodies made it from NYC to KSA and why they ended up in the city that they ended up in. Do we even know if those bodies being carried are the sisters? This looks like yet another huge gap in this story?

 

[SammieJean]

Thanks, and a belated

Welcome to Websleuths, SammieJean!!​

Good info! That protocol is essentially how it is where I live, too. The ME is in charge of the bodies and scene until he/she gives the scene over to LE. The ME will direct LE what to do with the body -- which is to have it delivered to the ME's office for autopsy if the scene and/or COD is suspicious.

Thanks!

I wonder how the NYC ME runs things. I guess it’s their procedure to remove bodies separately.

 

[borndem]

Speaking about the asylum request, everyone has denied that they told the media or discussed that. Even the 'cross configuration' of how they were connected, that was quoted for days in the media, was not disputed by the police. So there's also the questions of who is leaking false information to the press.
The police also didn't say when the credit card use stopped. They mention it being maxed out, but not when. Or if they had used other forms of payment. For two women trying to live under the radar, you'd think using a credit card would be the last thing they'd do.
Edit: If anyone wants to see the condition of one of the bodies, seen from a distance, there's a photo in this article. You can see how the duct tape was wrapped around them. The individual is face down, which tells me that this was the one who was on the bottom and after they removed the one on top (being carried away in the same photo), they rolled her over to take more photos.
The larger version of the image can be seen by right clicking, getting the image info, pasting it into a new browser window and deleting everything after .jpg.
Cops Seek Surveillance Video For Two Dead Sisters Found Bound By Duct Tape In River

Ooh, spooky, spooky scene. Thanks for the article. This thing is almost too much for me to imagine.
Has anyone seen/heard any talk about "honor killings" for these two beautiful young women? Did someone find out about their recent lifestyle and tell the family or friends or anyone? I spoke with a friend of mine who spent time in KSA -- her husband was an engineering consultant, making tons of $$ over there several years ago. She went with him and did not go outside the area assigned to US consultants -- they were there for about 18 months -- she had friends within their area, but she barely tolerated it there, but knew the money was rolling in. She mentioned honor killings -- it does happen. That was also a reason she disliked being over there -- young women have hardly any rights and are strictly controlled. She said she was sure that the practice is still in use.
Just wondering...

 

[borndem]

When will this case be considered solved? Seems pretty solved now, iykwim.

Hmmmm, you may be right...

Welcome to Websleuths, glenluce devil !! ​

 

[madamx]

Is it normalized for the press to focus on specific suicide cases? It seems that suicide is what has been concluded so far. I realize that the investigation is ongoing from what was presented in the NYPD press conference.

I don't know because about a month ago there was and unidentified guy found in Flushing Baywith chains wrapped around his legs and feet. Then you did not hear more about it until he was identified and they determined it was a suicide. It was a bit odd but that was it end of story.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.gothamist.com/amp/articles/create?article_id=5bb4c1ad6933a90001c365ba

 

[Oceans1111]

RSBM. No offense taken at all or thought that you were insinuating anything toward me.


I am usually not a believer in whatever I am told. And, I am not in this case. However, diving into a conspiracy and not trusting the info given to date doesn't make sense to me.

These girls weren't high profile. I can't imagine that the Saudis would be out doing things like Khashoggi on US soil. Is it possible? Yes. Probable? No. IMHO.

So, was this an honor killing? Maybe. But, we are not aware of any evidence that these young women were near anyone, even strangers, in the time they were in NY. We do hear NYPD say that they are still putting the last five or six days together. Could they have met with killers? Totally. Could they have been shamed into killing themselves or guilted into it? Absolutely, we know that abused people can be highly susceptible to influence and harm others or themselves.

Might many here be correct that the girls died days earlier? Yes. We have not seen the autopsy and the estimated time/day of death. The LEO/ME are holding many things close.

Could witnesses have seen others? Yes. Do I think that the NYPD would give us a bit of that info if they were not absolutely sure? No, as it is not what usually happens.

My thinking is to go with what the police are giving us. Ask questions. And, not get so bogged down in conspiracy that we miss the obvious.

As to your questions--- I do think they may have had a footprint but it was probably very well hidden and unless you know them you won't find it. Many people are very careful. They had family watching and, potentially, the government watching.

The older sister was said to have been at George Mason University. Did she make friends outside of the Saudi community? If yes, I think people would be talking (just like the neighbor that the mom talked to). However, women in the Saudi community know that you can't speak up or act out without repercussions, so I would expect that if this woman's contacts/friends were within her community, we won't hear of it. (We know that reporting abuse was handled very quietly-- as it should be.) If you don't make friends in western communities, the idea is that people will hold your secrets and also keep themselves safe from repercussions.

The credit card and spending is very odd, especially since they had been living in a shelter for nine months. That to me is the biggest conundrum. Did they make a deal that they could live in NYC for a period of time and come home? Was it a ruse to have them come home or get them home because everything could be traced--- so dad or brother or someone could show up and force them home? Or, was it a credit card in one of their names and unconnected? We don't know. I think this is what the NYPD is working on still.

The part of the river they were at (if the playground women in prayer were them) is a walk in site with a rocky, sandy shore. It is possible to wrap themselves there with the tape and enter the water? Yes. The roll of tape would sink. ( I never use scissors for duct tape, but that is me.) Did they drown with water in their lungs or the windpipe closing (leaving the lungs not filled with water for a period of time)? We don't know. Were they in the water for hours or days? Maybe they had a floatation device with them and maybe the device separated from them after the died. Maybe they died of hypothermia and not drowning so they didn't sink? I don't know and I am not a forensic scientist. But, somehow the NYPD thinks they died on the day they were found and without evidence to the contrary we can only conjecture.

You bring up a lot of good points. And highlight certain areas where I should have been more clear:

**I fully agree that a digital footprints do exist and that they are hard to find for the reasons you identify. Same can be said for the classmates, friends, etc. I also believe this is should be a significant area of focus in terms of understanding history/mindset/etc, so I hope NYPD is focusing here. I am a bit surprised that investigative journalists have not uncovered more than they have so far, but per OneEye, it’s probably a limited resource issue.

**My comment about the geopolitical factors being at play was not meant to suggest that we are definitely dealing with a Khashoggi-level cover up. I do, however, believe that if this were anything other than suicide, the Saudi Consulate (and possibly US) would have a vested interest in sweeping this story under the rug as quickly as possible (2 girls killed shortly after seeking asylum is really bad optics even if S.A. had nothing to do with it, which I agree is the likely scenario based on current facts). Given this and the fact that they are a rather powerful constituent in New York City, it’s a story that I am following with a slightly more quizzical eye than normal.

What troubles me most is the fact that the NYPD chose to highlight the following during the press conference: i) the “credible” source who saw the girls praying in the park; (ii) the statement from an unidentified source that the girl(s) would rather commit suicide than return to S.A; and (iii) the credit card being maxed-out as this sort of “end of the road” commentary. To me, it felt like they were using these points to sell the “suicide” narrative.

I am struggling with the status of the case because i) I don’t believe the point-of-entry (I’ve never paid particular attention to that exact park/lot referenced but i have played tennis at those courts right next to it and biked past it numerous times. I just don’t buy that two women, with their ankles and waists duct taped together, entered the water in broad day light without anyone seeing them and got far enough out in the water to catch a current that would take them 90 blocks south...maybe a flotation device would help take them out but it seems like a strange method to choose for suicide plus becomes all the more likely they would have been seen - ie two girls paddling out in fur trimmed jackets. also seems odd that the bodies would have hooked in back to shore right past that 70th Street Park/pier but maybe it’s possible); ii) the
comment from the unidentified source seems like a weak piece of evidence to me; and iii) the CC use/max-out creates as many questions as it does answers.

I guess my preference would have been for NYPD to stay completely tight-lipped about it as opposed to suggesting suicide so early on in the investigation by highlighting a few selective facts that I either challenge, find weak, or that (at least w/o benefit of addl info) create additional question marks.

That said, I do recognize that they have access to a lot more info than we do so I am hopeful that the information they release in the coming days/weeks will fill in gaps. For the moment though, for me at least, there are components to this story and its investigation that do not pass the “logic” test yet.

 

[Oceans1111]

Saudi Arabia’s Madina residents bury sisters found dead in New York river

Residents of Saudi Arabia’s Madina have buried the bodies of the two Saudi sisters who were found dead last week in the Hudson River in New York.

Are Rotana and Tala the two girls in that photo taking the selfie? I guess I must have missed that photo previously.

 

[NervousNellie]

I agree Shlock Homes!! Yeah something not right. Seriously the sketches looked NOTHING like the girls.

I am so glad someone else said that (upthread I felt it was a common belief that they were a good likeness). I thought "I must be "faceblind". (it's a thing - you don't recognize faces.)

The details in this case are so varied, depending on the source and timing... What a web of lies. While I am hopeful LE can sort this all out, it doesn't really change the horrific outcome, and chances are that whoever is responsible will never be brought to justice (if not suicide, which has been my gut instinct from the beginning).

Edited because I sounded like a broken record.

 

[Oceans1111]

That's a reason why I was surprised at the police so readily accepted that the sisters were seen the same morning 'praying' at a park several miles upstream. They kept saying at the news conference how the sisters could easily just walk into the water. But gave no explanation as to how they would have floated down stream in less than 5 hours, if they would have sunk. And if you look at google satellite view, you will see a long pier directly north of where their bodies were found, so that would have been a barrier.
Their bodies were only on the rocks after the tide went out, according to all the news reports of that day, the bodies were seen floating and that's when the police were alerted. The police must know about how drowning victims sink, I think the preliminary examination indicated they must have been dead for some time, long enough to float from George Washington bridge until they ruled that out due to lack of video footage of them.

Good point, Shlock. While they are not sharing much info at the moment, there do appear to be some “tells” based on what/where they are looking - there must be something investigators know that rules out the obvious, more logical scenario of them entering the water nearby (ie Park/Pier at 70th). As Kaen pointed out, same for CC use over the last few days that they they purportedly were alive....ie CC probably stops a few days earlier. body decomposition is not significant enough for time of death to have been a few days earlier but, at the same time, some sort of info telling them that the bodies did not enter near the area where they were found.

 

[Inthedetails]

That's a reason why I was surprised at the police so readily accepted that the sisters were seen the same morning 'praying' at a park several miles upstream. They kept saying at the news conference how the sisters could easily just walk into the water. But gave no explanation as to how they would have floated down stream in less than 5 hours, if they would have sunk. And if you look at google satellite view, you will see a long pier directly north of where their bodies were found, so that would have been a barrier.
Their bodies were only on the rocks after the tide went out, according to all the news reports of that day, the bodies were seen floating and that's when the police were alerted. The police must know about how drowning victims sink, I think the preliminary examination indicated they must have been dead for some time, long enough to float from George Washington bridge until they ruled that out due to lack of video footage of them.

The Hudson River has a very strong current. It's strong enough to be considered dangerous at this point in the river. Plus, it has a tide that is significant. Plus lots of river traffic that includes huge barges that create waves in the water. It is not a still body of water by any means.

Plus the sisters entered the water, likely, from the shore not straight down into the middle of the river from a bridge. So, it doesn't seem strange to me that that bodies didn't sink to the bottom and stay at the bottom. The water in the river is active. The way I see it is that they entered the water from the shore and the river movement kept them underwater but MOVING, not sinking. Then, the tide deposited them where they were found.

It's significant, imo, that they entered from the shore and went into a constantly moving river with a strong current.

What happened to the roll of tape? They threw it in the river, imo.

I don't see any conspiracy, except the plan the sisters made to die together rather than return to SA. I think at least one was facing arranged marriage and didn't want that. That rings true, imo. I also think it's a horrible tragedy and I'm so sorry they felt there was no other choice for them.

jmo

 

[JSolt1210]

I'm so on the fence with this case. At first I suspected homicide, but left enough room for possible double suicide. Then with the posts about honor killings, I think I leaned exclusively to homicide. But with an eyewitness possibly having seen them around 7am, I think I'm leaning back to double suicide.

I find that sighting interesting because, as others pointed out, sunrise in NYC that morning was indeed 7:17am. Muslim prayers are time-bound, but I don't think the faithful need to wait to the exact minute. And if the sisters (if it was them) didn't have access to a clock, they may have just gone by the light in the sky.

Here's an interesting thing, though. Regular salat prayers are said facing east. This means that they should've had their backs to the Hudson River and would've been facing him.

I lean towards the interpretation given above that the "30 feet apart" may describe the eyewitness' distance from the girls, and not their distance from each other because, from what I've read, salat may be recited shoulder to shoulder. So if strangers can get that close, why would two sisters choose to pray so far from one another?

Also, the distance between this sighting (around 158th Street) and where the bodies were found (68th Street) is 90 blocks, which is roughly 4.5 miles. Is it possible for bodies to float down a river shoreline for that distance in 8 hours (7am–3pm)?

At the very least, though: if the two sisters decided to end their lives, their decision didn't come from a vacuum, and cultural clashes may be involved.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I am so glad someone else said that (upthread I felt it was a common belief that they were a good likeness). I thought "I must be "faceblind". (it's a thing - you don't recognize faces.)

The details in this case are so varied, depending on the source and timing... What a web of lies. While I am hopeful LE can sort this all out, it doesn't really change the horrific outcome, and chances are that whoever is responsible will never be brought to justice (if not suicide, which has been my gut instinct from the beginning).

Edited because I sounded like a broken record.

I believe there are way more photos out there of the girls than we are being shown. the family from either here or back home would have photos, not just the passport photos which would have been on file at the government. They're 'typical girls' and yet are ghosts on social media?
And the police say they have video footage of them in various hotels, why not share that with us? Were they by themselves all the time, or were they seen in the company of other people too? That's something they haven't discussed either.

Are Rotana and Tala the two girls in that photo taking the selfie? I guess I must have missed that photo previously.

As far as I know, they discounted that. Those two girls don't look like either the sketches or the passport photos that were shared with the media.

 

[K_Z]

Is this customary? Do families usually do this? I'm not sure I understand what they mean by residents of Medina - just people who live in the city?

Is this customary? Do families usually do this? I'm not sure I understand what they mean by residents of Medina - just people who live in the city?

Interesting. The mosque in the picture of the alarabiya article is the most famous mosque in Medina-- the Al-Masjid an-Nabawi (prophet's mosque).

Al-Masjid an-Nabawi - Wikipedia

And right across from it is the one of the largest, and most famous/ significant islamic cemeteries in KSA, Al-Baqi.

Al-Baqi' - Wikipedia

So, if the picture in the article is indeed from the funerals of Tala and Rotana, it was a huge turnout for 2 young girls who were living outside KSA for 3 years. And from all pictures and articles, were not exactly living a pious, quiet culturally compliant lifestyle.

It is very interesting that the father has never, ever been pictured, nor even named in any articles.

Presuming that the sisters did indeed commit suicide, what is the view of scholars of islam on suicide and funerals? (And what is being shown in the picture is not the funeral prayer-- just the conveyance of the bodies presumably to the cemetery/ burial site by funeral attendees. No women in the picture, of course-- though women may attend the burial, just not typically attend the funeral prayer.)

In Middle Eastern cultures women are generally discouraged from participating in the funeral procession. The reason for this is that in pre-Islamic Arabia it was customary in Arabia for grieving women to wail loudly. Wealthy families often even hired 'wailers' to attend the funerals of their deceased relative. Wailing at funerals is not permitted according to the Sahih Bukhari. Women are allowed to attend or be present if they do not wail or cry or hit themselves in grief, especially in an exaggerated excessive manner as it used to be done in old Arabia times.[13]

Islamic funeral - Wikipedia

Suicide is a major sin. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated that the one who commits suicide will be punished with something like that with which he killed himself.

Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever throws himself down from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Fire of Hell, throwing himself down therein for ever and ever. Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. Whoever kills himself with a piece of iron, that piece of iron will be in his hand and he will be stabbing himself in the stomach with it in the Fire of Hell, for ever and ever.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim, 109.

It was narrated from Thaabit ibn al-Dahhaak (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever kills himself with something in this world will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5700; Muslim, 110.

It was narrated that Jundub ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Among those who came before you there was a man who was wounded and he panicked, so he took a knife and cut his hand with it, and the blood did not stop flowing until he died. Allaah said: ‘My slave hastened to bring about his demise; I have forbidden Paradise to him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3276; Muslim, 113.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) refrained from offering the funeral prayer for one who had committed suicide, as a punishment to him and so as to deter others from doing what he had done. But he gave the people permission to offer the funeral prayer for him, so it is Sunnah for the people of knowledge and virtue not to offer the funeral prayer for one who has committed suicide, following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: A man who had killed himself with a broad arrow-head was brought to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he did not offer the funeral prayer for him. Narrated by Muslim, 978.

This hadeeth is evidence for those who say that the funeral prayer should not be offered for one who killed himself because of his sin. This is the view of ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez and al-Awzaa’i. But al-Hasan, al-Nakha’i, Qataadah, Maalik, Abu Haneefah, al-Shaafa’i and the majority of scholars said that the funeral prayer should be offered for him. They responded to this hadeeth by pointing out that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not offer the funeral prayer for him himself so as to deter the people from doing something similar, but the Sahaabah offered the funeral prayer for him. End quote.

Sharh Muslim, 7/47

This does not mean – if it is proven that your cousin did commit suicide – that you should not pray for mercy and forgiveness for her, rather you must do that because she needs that. Suicide is not kufr that puts a person beyond the pale of Islam as some people think, rather it is a major sin that is subject to the will of Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: if He wills, He will forgive it, and if He wills He will punish for it. So do not neglect to make du’aa’ for her and be sincere in doing so; perhaps that may be the means of Allaah forgiving her.

Ruling on suicide and on offering the funeral prayer and praying for one who has committed suicide - Islam Question & Answer

It seems this story is pretty much over. Whether they did indeed commit a double suicide to avoid returning to KSA, or met their end at another's hand, I find I'm rather sad for them that their bodies were returned to the place they said they didn't want to be. Burial for eternity, in such a significantly high profile city and cemetery-- the second holiest place in islam. Medina is not just "a" city-- it is hugely significant in islam-- and KSA's second name is "The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques".

I'm not sure what to think about that, other than it makes me sad. I don't think it's likely that they would have wanted to be buried in medina, but who knows. It seems quite a high profile burial for 2 young women who were "nobodies". I don't believe much in conspiracy theories, but there are so many extremely odd parts of this story, that it's hard not to scratch your head and ask "why" this is unfolding as it is.

I think this has run its course, and we won't hear much more about them, or the U.S. investigation. Maybe one more set of articles when the toxicology comes back-- and I think it will be negative for everything, and will be officially closed out as a double suicide. Someone claimed the bodies, and paid for the bodies to be transported back to KSA. And publicized and paid for the rather high profile burial (there was a reporter present)-- presuming that was indeed a picture of their burial procession. We can each make of that what we will.

Of note, the "real" picture released in the article shows 2 exceptionally beautiful young women, dressed quite western/ american, and enjoying a "selfie" with a cell phone. How utterly mundane for most American teens/ young adults-- and yet, so dangerous for them. So sad.

I'll remember them like this, not as the bad drawing, or the passport/ ID pictures:

Saudi sisters found dead in New York ‘were not killed,’ US police source says

 

[K_Z]

I also think it's very strange that not a single U.S. friend, teacher, or acquaintance of the sisters has come forward at all, even to just say "She was my friend, and I miss her" or "She was such a kind person". No one has even come out publicly to support the mother. "She's my neighbor, and always smiled at me-- I'm so sad for what this family is going through", etc.

No. One. At. All.

And we still know nothing. at. all. about the father, his name, position, work, etc. He's a ghost.

Shaking my head. Sad for the girls. Wish their lives could have been saved.

 

[moonriverfarm]

Wait - how and when were the bodies taken back to SA, if indeed they were?

 

[borndem]

Are Rotana and Tala the two girls in that photo taking the selfie? I guess I must have missed that photo previously.

I did not see the selfie-type pictures before I read the article, either. Oh, they look so sweet and pretty there.
Your prior post was very good -- I still wonder about many of the things you do. Maybe we here at WS just have suspicious minds -- but we have learned that what-you-see-isn't-always-what-you-get or something like that. Anyway, thanks for your good post.
Hoping to get more facts from LE soon.