NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[Soulmagent]

I think there might have been a diagram with the test. This question looks very much like the test for LE and the report writing section. They ask similar questions and show diagrams.

I don't know if a diagram was included or not but given that it is the only option with a direct location verses an in general location would have made it report worthy. IMO. Vague reports lead to more questions.

 

[SophieRose]

No diagram with question.

http://firelink.monster.com/nfs/firelink/static/620.pdf

C is the correct answer. The alternatives differ in two important ways. The first concerns the level of the house on which the fire is located. Alternatives C and D indicate that the fire is in the basement, thus leaving little room for confusion. In contrast, alternatives A and B use the term “lower level.” “Lower level” could be interpreted as the basement or as the lowest above-ground level in the house. Since the term lower level is more likely to confuse the reader of the report than the term “basement,” responses C and D are better than responses A and B.

Second, the alternatives differ in the detail used to describe the area of the basement in which the fire is located. Alternatives B and C use more detail by stating, “In the southeast comer. ” This detail allows us to break the basement up into four sections and gives us a very specific idea of where the fire is located. In contrast, alternatives A and D use, “in the rear. ”This allows us to break the basement up into only two sections front and rear and gives us a less specific idea of where the fire is located.
Combining the above two ideas, C is the best answer.

 

[jjenny]

I don't know if a diagram was included or not but given that it is the only option with a direct location verses an in general location would have made it report worthy. IMO. Vague reports lead to more questions.

It gives direct location that could be wrong because this information isn't provided in the question.

 

[jjenny]

No diagram with question.

http://firelink.monster.com/nfs/firelink/static/620.pdf

C is the correct answer. The alternatives differ in two important ways. The first concerns the level of the house on which the fire is located. Alternatives C and D indicate that the fire is in the basement, thus leaving little room for confusion. In contrast, alternatives A and B use the term “lower level.” “Lower level” could be interpreted as the basement or as the lowest above-ground level in the house. Since the term lower level is more likely to confuse the reader of the report than the term “basement,” responses C and D are better than responses A and B.

Second, the alternatives differ in the detail used to describe the area of the basement in which the fire is located. Alternatives B and C use more detail by stating, “In the southeast comer. ” This detail allows us to break the basement up into four sections and gives us a very specific idea of where the fire is located. In contrast, alternatives A and D use, “in the rear. ”This allows us to break the basement up into only two sections front and rear and gives us a less specific idea of where the fire is located.
Combining the above two ideas, C is the best answer.

Best answer that could be a completely wrong answer because there is no information provided to support it. I wouldn't have picked it. How can you answer that the fire is in southeast corner when you are not given this information? You can break the basement into however many sections, it still doesn't change the fact that you don't know if fire is in southeast corner, or northwest corner, because nobody told you that. So supposedly best answer could be completely false answer. No wonder some of them are having trouble with these tests.

 

[Cubby]

I read the entire thread and am really surprised no one asked how the NY city test compares to tests in other states and cities.

I know a few years back Chicago was using a different physical standard than those of more than 50 suburban Chicago FD's.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ers-physical-abilities-test-firefighter-exams


I fail to see how anyone can determine whether Wax will be competent or not with having almost no information about the testing standards and how they compare to those in other cities and states. Yet, I see a ton of bashing this woman solely based on a smidgen of information in a single msm article. Come on WS'rs, you guy and gals are much smarter than that!

 

[sonjay]

I don't know if a diagram was included or not but given that it is the only option with a direct location verses an in general location would have made it report worthy. IMO. Vague reports lead to more questions.

Yes, this. The correct answer is instantly obvious, to anyone who understands the objective of the question.

The question was not "where is the fire located?"

The question was, what is the best way to describe the location. You want to be specific, so that when one of the firefighters on the "go into burning buildings and save people" crew gets there, they know exactly what part of the building is on fire.

This is why reading comprehension is important, and shouldn't be skimped on in the test. People need to be able to write and describe things coherently, and they need to be capable of reading/listening and understanding things.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, this. The correct answer is instantly obvious, to anyone who understands the objective of the question.

The question was not "where is the fire located?"

The question was, what is the best way to describe the location. You want to be specific, so that when one of the firefighters on the "go into burning buildings and save people" crew gets there, they know exactly what part of the building is on fire.

This is why reading comprehension is important, and shouldn't be skimped on in the test. People need to be able to write and describe things coherently, and they need to be capable of reading/listening and understanding things.

So the point is, as long as you are specific, it doesn't matter if you are wrong on the details? So if you tell someone who goes into burning building that the fire is in the southeast corner of the basement, but it's actually in the northwest corner, it's all well and good? They are not provided with the information in which corner the fire is. So they have 4 possible choices. Thus, only 25% of being right by picking this answer. How could it possibly be the best answer?

 

[Soulmagent]

Yes, this. The correct answer is instantly obvious, to anyone who understands the objective of the question.

The question was not "where is the fire located?"

The question was, what is the best way to describe the location. You want to be specific, so that when one of the firefighters on the "go into burning buildings and save people" crew gets there, they know exactly what part of the building is on fire.

This is why reading comprehension is important, and shouldn't be skimped on in the test. People need to be able to write and describe things coherently, and they need to be capable of reading/listening and understanding things.

Can I be a fireman now? Please! Just don't let me write the reports because, well you guys have seen my post.

 

[sonjay]

So the point is, as long as you are specific, it doesn't matter if you are wrong on the details? So if you tell someone who goes into burning building that the fire is in the southeast corner of the basement, but it's actually in the northwest corner, it's all well and good?

No, you're still not understanding the question. The question is not "Where is the fire located?" The question, as written, is obviously not focused on where the fire is located, but on how the firefighter should describe where it's located.

 

[SophieRose]

http://firelink.monster.com/nfs/firelink/static/620.pdf
NINE ABILITY AREAS of exam
A. Memorization
B. Visualization
C. Spatial Orientation
D. Written Comprehension
E. Written Expression
F. Information Ordering
G. Problem Sensitivity
H. Deductive Reasoning
I. Inductive Reasoning

The question above comes from the written expression part of the exam.

Definition: This ability involves using English words or sentences in writing so that others will understand. These other people might be other firefighters, fire officers, witnesses, arson suspects, fire victims or any individuals with whom the firefighter might come in contact. This ability would include vocabulary, knowledge of differences among words, and knowledge of grammar and the way words are ordered.
Techniques: There are two kind of written expression questions that you may see on the exam.
Type 1: The first type of question (see sample question 9) requires that you identify the best way to communicate a particular thought or idea to another individual. For questions such as these, it is important to ensure that the alternative you choose (a) correctly reflects the meaning of the original idea, and (b) expresses the original idea in the most clear and concise manner.

 

[Soulmagent]

I read the entire thread and am really surprised no one asked how the NY city test compares to tests in other states and cities.

I know a few years back Chicago was using a different physical standard than those of more than 50 suburban Chicago FD's.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ers-physical-abilities-test-firefighter-exams


I fail to see how anyone can determine whether Wax will be competent or not with having almost no information about the testing standards and how they compare to those in other cities and states. Yet, I see a ton of bashing this woman solely based on a smidgen of information in a single msm article. Come on WS'rs, you guy and gals are much smarter than that!

I will first admit to not having read the thread, it popped up on my fed I clicked and the test question was there. I kinda of treated that like a facebook quiz and decided to respond.
Now after having read your post , I really feel as a citizen no matter where I live I should not have to worry about different test results across the board. I would like to think I have the same survivability rates anywhere I live within reason of service.

Thanks Chubby for bringing me back to the real planet. Where the bottom line and what is available differs vastly.

 

[jjenny]

No, you're still not understanding the question. The question is not "Where is the fire located?" The question, as written, is obviously not focused on where the fire is located, but on how the firefighter should describe where it's located.

Presumably this firefighter should describe it accurately. The answer as given has only 25% chance of being accurate, because this information is not included in the question. So how would I know if the firefighter is describing accurately where the fire is located, when this information was not given?

 

[Dana]

The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement.

A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”

The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."
_____________________________________________________________________

This is not a hard question LMAO.

A) not specific re: lower level/rear
B) not specific re: lower level
D) not specific re: rear basement
Now, were left with C) specific - southeast corner basement

 

[jjenny]

The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement.

A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”

The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."
_____________________________________________________________________

This is not a hard question LMAO.

A) not specific re: lower level/rear
B) not specific re: lower level
D) not specific re: rear basement
Now, were left with C) specific - southeast corner basement

Again, while it might be specific, it could also be completely false. In fact there is only 25% chance it's not wrong, as there are four corners in the basement.
So they are supposed to pick an answer that could be 75% false?

 

[Dana]

Ah, but there are not 4 southeast corners are there?

 

[Cubby]

NYC apparently uses a different test than the standard norm for the rest of the country.

Rebecca Wax, 33, is set to graduate Tuesday from the Fire Academy without passing the Functional Skills Training test, a grueling obstacle course of job-related tasks performed in full gear with a limited air supply, an insider has revealed.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/03/woman-to-become-ny-firefighter-despite-failing-crucial-fitness-test/


The issue appears to be over the FST test, which is not standard and according to the following article more than 500 FD's across the country use the CPAT.

FST is the FDNY's own invention, a more intense version of the CPAT, often likened to an obstacle course. In the Fire Academy, probies do it about once a week. It includes some of the same elements as the CPAT: tasks like climbing stairs while carrying tools and equipment, dragging hoses, and raising ladders, as well as forcible-entry and search-and-rescue exercises.
But it's performed at a dead run — something that will get you disqualified from the CPAT — and involves lifting a lot more weight, while wearing full gear and a self-contained breathing apparatus, like the kind you'd use during an actual fire. According to the FDNY's own materials about its fitness standards, "FST requires an extremely high level of physical conditioning, well beyond what is necessary to pass CPAT."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2014-02-12/news/fdny-female-firefighters/full/

I wonder how many of the thousands of firefighters across the country who were only required to take what appears to be the national standard CPAT test would also be considered incompetent and a danger to their peers by not having taken the FST. I also wonder how Wax performed on the CPAT.

 

[popsicle]

Ah, but there are not 4 southeast corners are there?

There aren't even 4 rear corners.

 

[jjenny]

Ah, but there are not 4 southeast corners are there?

And? How do you know this Cpt wrote a correct answer if this information isn't provided?

 

[jjenny]

There aren't even 4 rear corners.

Do you know which way this house is oriented?

 

[sonjay]

NYC apparently uses a different test than the standard norm for the rest of the country.

Rebecca Wax, 33, is set to graduate Tuesday from the Fire Academy without passing the Functional Skills Training test, a grueling obstacle course of job-related tasks performed in full gear with a limited air supply, an insider has revealed.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/03/woman-to-become-ny-firefighter-despite-failing-crucial-fitness-test/


The issue appears to be over the FST test, which is not standard and according to the following article more than 500 FD's across the country use the CPAT.

FST is the FDNY's own invention, a more intense version of the CPAT, often likened to an obstacle course. In the Fire Academy, probies do it about once a week. It includes some of the same elements as the CPAT: tasks like climbing stairs while carrying tools and equipment, dragging hoses, and raising ladders, as well as forcible-entry and search-and-rescue exercises.
But it's performed at a dead run — something that will get you disqualified from the CPAT — and involves lifting a lot more weight, while wearing full gear and a self-contained breathing apparatus, like the kind you'd use during an actual fire. According to the FDNY's own materials about its fitness standards, "FST requires an extremely high level of physical conditioning, well beyond what is necessary to pass CPAT."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2014-02-12/news/fdny-female-firefighters/full/

I wonder how many of the thousands of firefighters across the country who were only required to take what appears to be the national standard CPAT test would also be considered incompetent and a danger to their peers by not having taken the FST. I also wonder how Wax performed on the CPAT.

“CPAT is a minimum standard,” he said. “Minimum standards are unacceptable to be a New York City Firefighter.”
“We have tens of thousands of buildings that have been grandfathered in as building codes changed,” he added. “We have a higher number of skyscrapers that don’t have sprinkler systems than any other city in the country.”


http://thechiefleader.com/news/open...cle_d8db4814-6667-11e3-a046-0019bb30f31a.html

When it comes to firefighting, NYC is truly in a class by itself.