Occam's Razor

[Jayelles]

The girl was tormented tortured and received mortal wounds in that basement, the fact that they brought her upstairs in the end, only means she didn't die in the basement, but if you count the injuries as causing her murder, she was murdered in the basement.

I don't see where she LIED though. Bonnie Wells stated the girl was murdered in the basement. When someone is murdered, there is a dead body! In Janet mcReynold's story, there was no dead body in the basement.

She didn't lie!

EDITED TO SAY :- And she doesn't claim her play was accurate - only "loosely based on".

 

[sissi]

I am not going to defend B Wells as a source, she provided information , she was honest, her original sources were solid, you may take from it what ya' wish. I will say this, she was CLEAR when she stated her astonishment at the comments made by santa, and had you read down another paragraph you WOULD have read this,

copy/paste Quote,
It turned out that Bill McReynolds daughter had indeed been kidnapped .... she and one of her friends .... on Christmas night, precisely 22 years before JonBenet was murdered! But she had not been killed as McReynolds had told on the tv program. Instead, her friend was sexually assaulted while she was tied up and forced to watch. Nothing was done to her however, and afterward the two girls were released. As far as I know the case was never solved, and no one knows who assaulted the girl's friend to this day.

And as far as the comments about the story he claimed to write were concerned, it seems he had that a bit cockeyed also.

End quote.

edit to add...Jayelles ,where was she murdered?
edit again...oops..she was murdered in the basement and carried upstairs ,her dead body was found on a mattress

 

[Jayelles]

I am not going to defend B Wells as a source, she provided information , she was honest, her original sources were solid, you may take from it what ya' wish. I will say this, she was CLEAR when she stated her astonishment at the comments made by santa, and had you read down another paragraph you WOULD have read this,

copy/paste Quote,
It turned out that Bill McReynolds daughter had indeed been kidnapped .... she and one of her friends .... on Christmas night, precisely 22 years before JonBenet was murdered! But she had not been killed as McReynolds had told on the tv program. Instead, her friend was sexually assaulted while she was tied up and forced to watch. Nothing was done to her however, and afterward the two girls were released. As far as I know the case was never solved, and no one knows who assaulted the girl's friend to this day.

And as far as the comments about the story he claimed to write were concerned, it seems he had that a bit cockeyed also.

End quote.

edit to add...Jayelles ,where was she murdered? In the hospital ?

Sissi - she is "astonished" at what she thought were santa's false claims/confusion (call it what you wish). However, you appear to be missing the point - that Santa didn't make these claims. Instead, it seems that Bonnie Wells misheard. There is no source but her webpage where she claims to have heard him say these things. There is no transcript, not even a source which corroborates that the interview took place. ACR lists the interviews which took place. The transcripts are available for many, but not all. That one isn't listed at all.

IMO, Bonnie Wells sources are certainly NOT solid.

Regarding the "murdered" argument - it's an interesting argument. Not sure how the law would look at it. If someone is assaulted and died later in a different place of their injuries ... were the murdered at the place of the assualt? Or were they assaulted and died later of their injuries elsewhere?

Perhaps a legal expert ould tell us. If Janet McReynold's victim died of her injuries in hospital and janet claims she wasn't murdered in the basement - does that maker her a "liar"?

 

[sissi]

When the cops got to the dingy, rundown, clapboard home to which the anonymous caller had directed them, they found the emaciated dead body of 16-year-old Sylvia Marie Likens. She was covered with bruises and small wounds, later revealed to be cigarette and match burns that numbered over 100. There were also large areas where the outer layer of skin had peeled off. Likens also had a large letter "3" branded on her chest.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/likens/1.html?sect=10


HMMM...a newer version ..Patte Wheat brought the story into the 1970s in By Sanction of the Victim.

Sanctioned By The Child??? spooky huh? a twist I know but gives us a reasonable SBTC..

 

[DocWatson]

HMMM...a newer version ..Patte Wheat brought the story into the 1970s in By Sanction of the Victim.

Sanctioned By The Child??? spooky huh? a twist I know but gives us a reasonable SBTC..

I haven't figure it out yet, but once I saw "Santa Bill" it immediately occurred to me SBTC=Santa Bill something. Maybe others more creative than I can figure it out.

 

[sissi]

Note the number three on Syvia's chest, could a number three look like a heart on a hand? I am off to search for the picture of the heart........
edit..no..in fact I don't know what this looks like?

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandheart.jpg

 

[DocWatson]

Sissi - she is "astonished" at what she thought were santa's false claims/confusion (call it what you wish). However, you appear to be missing the point - that Santa didn't make these claims. Instead, it seems that Bonnie Wells misheard. There is no source but her webpage where she claims to have heard him say these things. There is no transcript, not even a source which corroborates that the interview took place. ACR lists the interviews which took place. The transcripts are available for many, but not all. That one isn't listed at all.

IMO, Bonnie Wells sources are certainly NOT solid.

Regarding the "murdered" argument - it's an interesting argument. Not sure how the law would look at it. If someone is assaulted and died later in a different place of their injuries ... were the murdered at the place of the assualt? Or were they assaulted and died later of their injuries elsewhere?

Perhaps a legal expert ould tell us. If Janet McReynold's victim died of her injuries in hospital and janet claims she wasn't murdered in the basement - does that maker her a "liar"?

You seem to be studiously avoiding seeing some obvious parallels by looking too carefully at the nitty gritty details. BW isn't claiming it's a PERFECT parallel and perhaps she did indeed mis-hear "murder." I knew she wasn't 100% reliable just based on her spelling. But that doesn't obviate the significance of his daughter being KIDNAPPED on the identical day that the RN was found. I'm not sure I really believe Janet's explanation either, do you? I realize they wouldn't "celebrate" such a horrific experience and if it had happened on an "ordinary" day, e.g., October 2, I can understand why over time it would fade from memory what exact date this happened. But realistically, how could anyone forget the day after Christmas? It would seem likely to be forever embedded in their minds. They possibly might forget the year, but even that seems unlikely. I still remember (even though I certainly don't celebrate it) the exact date of my first marriage in 1974. So Janet's claim not to realize that JBR "went missing" (in terms of when her parents learned about it) on the identical day doesn't ring quite true.

Remember that Santa Bill, if this was premeditated at all (especially if he had prearranged meeting with JBR), presumably would have known that family was leaving early next morning and he wouldn't "have access" to JBR after that. So the premise isn't that he was arranging her alleged kidnap and killing to exactly parallel events involving either his daughter or his wife's fictional character in the book. So the fact that selected details don't exactly "match" what happened to JBR doesn't rule out Santa Bill as a suspect. If he was prone to depression anyway, then the double whammy of a holiday such as Xmas when coupled with an unshakeable memory of what happened to his daughter might have been considerable. The fact that she was kidnapped may have planted the idea for the content of the RN since if there were a RN in his daughter's case, he would know exactly what John would go through to receive that kind of note etc.

Apart from the "coincidences" I took note of the apparent "obsession" with JBR and I too found the comment posing a hypothetical about doing harm to Ramseys around the holidays VERY odd. So BW may have a few facts wrong, but the overall picture seems pretty compelling. So unless she has even those "big picture" facts in error, Santa Bill has to be a pretty serious suspect.

Went to bed at 8:00 is an alibi?????????????????????? I'm no murderer and more than a decade away from being age 67, but at least several times a year I get out of bed in the middle of the night to "putter" (read papers, surf Internet) if I can't sleep. At least half the time my wife never knows I'm gone even though we sleep in the same bed. Do we know whether McReynolds slept in same bed? And going back to my original theory: let's pretend in worst case Santa Bill is discovered by his wife. Depending on how things play out (how much she knows about how long he's been gone etc.), he can either just pretend he went out to buy ice cream or something or, if she somehow finds that he's been spotted at JBR's, his "cover" is that he'd promised to make a secret visit to JBR. It could be that at that juncture he just didn't care. For all we know, he may have wanted to get caught at a subconscious level, but then once he saw how things played out, decided it was more fun to watch JR twist in the wind.

If his original motive was revenge, this may have simply been icing on the cake that was entirely unplanned. Remember that he "planted" the incest thought first and THEN, being the swell guy that he was, quickly backed away from it. If he knows cops already are suspicious and he knows all the forensic evidence he himself left behind regarding sexual assault, he's going to know that what will stick in their mind is the suspicion of incest rather than the meaningless "exoneration" of a near-stranger (after all, how would McReynolds possibly know whether JR was or wasn't abusing JBR anyway?). So it makes him look like a swell guy sticking up for JR's innocence when in fact he actually had stabbed him in the back. A clever ploy not entirely unexpected from the likes of a college professor.

I continue to be pretty suspicious of Santa Bill.

 

[sissi]

"I remember coming home and telling my wife 'I saw an angel tonight,'" Bill McReynolds said of the day he met JonBenet. McReynolds was playing Santa that day. "She was one of the only children who ever talked to me who didn't ask for anything," McReynolds recalled. "Instead, she gave."

"I've said I don't think there's anyone too good for this world," McReynolds said at JonBenet's memorial service. "But she was pretty close."

Doc Watson, what you say makes sense. I believe this is why it's difficult for those ,such as Keenan, who has more information than us, to give up on him as a suspect. The red fibers likely were not from Patsy's red/gray/cream jacket. IMO

 

[Tmic]

santa bill taking care (of business)

to not take a further look at this guy means the blinders are heavily established.

 

[Jayelles]

You seem to be studiously avoiding seeing some obvious parallels by looking too carefully at the nitty gritty details.

I am studiously ignoring an inaccurate source whose theory is built on little more than speculation.

Contrary to Bonnie Wells' claims, the McSantas did NOT hide the fact that their daughter was kidnapped - in fact, they spoke about it to the media.

Janet McReynold's play wasn't a secret. It had been performed twice and she had tried to get it published. One thing I'll say about the McSantas is that they are "not backward about coming forward". I'd guess that they would be inclined to brag about little things like writing plays and having them performed. How many people knew about it?

The FACT remains that the McSantas were investigated. Handwriting and DNA was tested. Santa wasn't one of Pharoah's lean cattle either. How do you suppose a rotund man who had just had major heart surgery slithered in and out of that basement window? Or are we going to disregard ALL of Lou Smit's intruder evidence?

 

[sissi]

Jayelles you are correct concerning Wells and her information, she used what was available through mainstream news in print and in other media sources.
The American Journal interview was discussed by a few, I don't know if it wasn't available everywhere in the country , but I do remember I didn't see it.
As with most TV entertainment magazines "selective" editing could have put McReynolds words in odd places, or he actually could have been confused and
erred in his recollections that day.

When you suggest, however, that Santa openly and willingly gave up the information concerning his wife's play and his daughter's kidnapping, you are indeed incorrect. It wasn't until after Santa, quickly following the murder, went to Spain, that the police were getting this information, some 90 (ish) days after the murder that he was confronted with these coincidences and only at that point did he offer an explanation.

Another little oddity, and this perhaps means nothing, when questioned about a relationship with Chris Wolfe santa claimed he did not know him, however, Chris was seen visiting him in the hospital the August preceding the murder. Just a hinky..maybe a factoid I picked up
from RMN
Quote...
McReynolds, contacted recently, also denied having known Wolf well.

But Boulder County Commissioner Paul Danish said he remembers running into Wolf in front of Boulder's downtown post office in fall 1996. Wolf told him he had paid a hospital visit to McReynolds, who had a collapsed lung, Danish said.

 

[DocWatson]

I am studiously ignoring an inaccurate source whose theory is built on little more than speculation.

Arent' virtually ALL RDI theories based purely on speculation? It's not as if they found JR's semen on JBR's body or a stun gun hidden under Patsy's pillow.

Contrary to Bonnie Wells' claims, the McSantas did NOT hide the fact that their daughter was kidnapped - in fact, they spoke about it to the media.

Sissi has artfully countered this misleading claim.

Janet McReynold's play wasn't a secret. It had been performed twice and she had tried to get it published. One thing I'll say about the McSantas is that they are "not backward about coming forward". I'd guess that they would be inclined to brag about little things like writing plays and having them performed. How many people knew about it?

But this seems like an irrelevant digression. The theory isn't that McReynolds arrived in CO with a carefully plotted plan to kidnap/kill a little beauty princess after several years of ingratiating themselves with the family. If it were, then keeping the play a secret may have been an important clue. BW may have gotten details wrong, but what's notable is the correspondence of some of the details of JBR's killing with that fictional account, not in EVERY particular, but in terms of some central aspects.

The FACT remains that the McSantas were investigated. Handwriting and DNA was tested.

I think BW's account raises some legitimate questions about how intensive this investigation was. It seems like not a single word of the Ramseys could be accepted at face value by Steve Thomas, but he was more than willing to accept "went to bed at 8:00" as sufficient alibi for a most suspicious character. As I noted earlier, handwriting and DNA also are exculpatory for Ramseys, but that doesn't stop 75% here from believing RDI theory.

Santa wasn't one of Pharoah's lean cattle either. How do you suppose a rotund man who had just had major heart surgery slithered in and out of that basement window? Or are we going to disregard ALL of Lou Smit's intruder evidence?

All things considered, I believe in IDI theory, but actually DON'T buy Smit's account. Even if McSanta weren't the possible perp, I concur with occurs that if someone had slid in and out that window a) they unavoidably would have had to wipe the sill clean with their butt, but that is contrary to crime scene phots of how it was left and there wasn't sufficient debris on floor either (what debris there was could have as easily just blown in by the wind); and b) what imaginable perp would reach back and pull the window to within 1 inch of closing after making a hasty exit?

With McSanta as perp--someone who had hours of access to house on 23rd and may actually have even been given a key for some reason pursuant to his Santa responsibilities--it is far easier to imagine him coming and leaving by door and even leaving it locked behind him: all the "staging" of the window that people here seem fond of accusing Ramseys of may well have instead just been "staging" by McReynolds. He might want to have thrown police off that entry was through a now-locked door (quickly narrowing suspects down to those with keys).

This could account for a) suitcase under window (given his size, he may have tried unsuccessfully to use this suitcase to pull window down, which would account for suitcase position and small shard of glass on top of it); b) grass under the grate and clanging sound heard by neighbor (even if McReynolds didn't actually go through the window, he may upon leaving house have lifted gate just to confirm it wasn't latched in some way).

To me, the suitcase and grass evidence have always been puzzling in light of my conclusion that window actually was NOT used as either entry or exit point by the intruder. This suggests staging, but staging isn't generally consistent with intruder, but for this particular intruder, it would be!

Finally, I am FASCINATED to hear there is a Chris Wolf/McSanta connection that apparently was lied about by Santa Bill. What's THAT about? Can you figure out an innocent motive for lying about this? Is it conceivable McSanta was the bait to get JBR quietly out of her bedroom to lure her into the basement where Chris Wolf was waiting? Chris Wolf's behavior on the night in question certainly was very weird.

 

[DocWatson]

When you suggest, however, that Santa openly and willingly gave up the information concerning his wife's play and his daughter's kidnapping, you are indeed incorrect. It wasn't until after Santa, quickly following the murder, went to Spain, that the police were getting this information, some 90 (ish) days after the murder that he was confronted with these coincidences and only at that point did he offer an explanation.

Another little oddity, and this perhaps means nothing, when questioned about a relationship with Chris Wolfe santa claimed he did not know him, however, Chris was seen visiting him in the hospital the August preceding the murder. Just a hinky..maybe a factoid I picked up
from RMN
Quote...
McReynolds, contacted recently, also denied having known Wolf well.

But Boulder County Commissioner Paul Danish said he remembers running into Wolf in front of Boulder's downtown post office in fall 1996. Wolf told him he had paid a hospital visit to McReynolds, who had a collapsed lung, Danish said.

Great sleuthing. In light of their proclivity for looking the other way when it comes to exculpatory evidence regarding the Ramseys, RDI theorists may conveniently elect to dismiss all of the above, but to me they are things that really make ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Jayelles]

Before the two of you get too excited, if you take a moment to refer to my previous post above where I cite actual sources for interviews, you will see that one of the articles where the mcSanta daughter/kidnap was discussed took place BEFORE the interview where Bonnie Wells claims McSanta was "confused"/told lies (whichever interpretation you prefer). So it is therefore a moot point. Even if this incident didn't come out early in the Ramsey investigation, it had still come out BEFORE the interview cited by Ms Wells.

Also, the kidnap of Jill McReynolds took place 22 years before the murder of jonbenet Ramsey. That's a lifetime! I really cannot see it as suspicious that they would not instantly bring it to the attention of the national media! OK, there was the coincidence of the date, but do you know what? - my daughter went missing when she was three years old (she was found unharmed) and I couldn't even tell you what month this happened on let alone the exact date. As Janet McReynolds said, they didn't "celebrate" the date. I can understand that. You are relieved that your child is safe and unharmed. The McReynolds had their share of worries over the years. I believe one of their sons was in trouble and McSanta had his health worries. Also, although their daughter was abducted, she wasn't assaulted and so for her, the experience was less than that of her friend who WAS assaulted. so there is the coincidence of the date, but I'm not certain that is so terribly significant. Coincidences happen and they can be intriguing but I prefer not to allow a coincidence from 22 years prior to distract me from the solid evidence in the case.

 

[Jayelles]

Great sleuthing. In light of their proclivity for looking the other way when it comes to exculpatory evidence regarding the Ramseys, RDI theorists may conveniently elect to dismiss all of the above, but to me they are things that really make ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure if you are referring to me DW, but just for the record, I am not RDI.

 

[sissi]

Before the two of you get too excited, if you take a moment to refer to my previous post above where I cite actual sources for interviews, you will see that one of the articles where the mcSanta daughter/kidnap was discussed took place BEFORE the interview where Bonnie Wells claims McSanta was "confused"/told lies (whichever interpretation you prefer). So it is therefore a moot point. Even if this incident didn't come out early in the Ramsey investigation, it had still come out BEFORE the interview cited by Ms Wells.

Also, the kidnap of Jill McReynolds took place 22 years before the murder of jonbenet Ramsey. That's a lifetime! I really cannot see it as suspicious that they would not instantly bring it to the attention of the national media! OK, there was the coincidence of the date, but do you know what? - my daughter went missing when she was three years old (she was found unharmed) and I couldn't even tell you what month this happened on let alone the exact date. As Janet McReynolds said, they didn't "celebrate" the date. I can understand that. You are relieved that your child is safe and unharmed. The McReynolds had their share of worries over the years. I believe one of their sons was in trouble and McSanta had his health worries. Also, although their daughter was abducted, she wasn't assaulted and so for her, the experience was less than that of her friend who WAS assaulted. so there is the coincidence of the date, but I'm not certain that is so terribly significant. Coincidences happen and they can be intriguing but I prefer not to allow a coincidence from 22 years prior to distract me from the solid evidence in the case.

I'm not certain I am understanding Jayelles what concerns you about the Wells info. Yes, the information came out before the "confused" Santa gave the interview, however it did not come out in their first interview with the police in Feb..I believe the 7th, it wasn't until March, when they were called in for a second interview for the purpose of confronting them with this that they "willingly" admitted/discussed it with the BPD.

RMN March02,1997
Rocky Mountain News
Charlie Brennan
Quote...
BOULDER -- Police this week collected hair and handwriting samples from the wife of a man who portrayed Santa Claus at the Ramsey home two nights before JonBenet Ramsey's slaying.
They did so, the Rocky Mountain News has learned, due to concerns about two perplexing parallels involving Janet and Bill McReynolds -- one of which came to detectives' attention only in recent days.

 

[Jayelles]

I'm not certain I am understanding Jayelles what concerns you about the Wells info. Yes, the information came out before the "confused" Santa gave the interview, however it did not come out in their first interview with the police in Feb..I believe the 7th, it wasn't until March, when they were called in for a second interview for the purpose of confronting them with this that they "willingly" admitted/discussed it with the BPD.

RMN March02,1997
Rocky Mountain News
Charlie Brennan
Quote...
BOULDER -- Police this week collected hair and handwriting samples from the wife of a man who portrayed Santa Claus at the Ramsey home two nights before JonBenet Ramsey's slaying.
They did so, the Rocky Mountain News has learned, due to concerns about two perplexing parallels involving Janet and Bill McReynolds -- one of which came to detectives' attention only in recent days.

And I am not sure why you think it's significant that they didn't immediately think to mention a NOT particularly similar incident which occurred a whole 22 years earlier.

Think about it. What news would the McReynolds have received on 26th December about Jonbenet Ramsey? Answer - that she had been murdered - not kidnapped - murdered. How shocking do you suppose that news would have been to those who knew her? Do you think they would have been able to think about much else? I think they would have been wondering WHO did it. I think they would have been in a serious state of disbelief about it. Then the media started to hint that the parents were involved and THAT would have become a major talking point/focus for many/most people.

I just don't see that the McReynolds would have immediately considered "parallels" to their own daughter being abducted 22 years previously. She wasn't murdered. She wasn't even assaulted. It wasn't even a proper kidnapping - i.e. there wasn't a ransom note or anything. Some guy took her and her friend and assaulted the friend. Apart from the date, there is not really much else in common with the two incidents. JonBenet wasn't abducted. There was no friend involved. At what stage do you suppose the McReynolds SHOULD have noticed parallels?

 

[sissi]

I don't believe we are going to be handed a suspect, even in the light of this developing news. The connections between already identified people of interest should ,if known, be made public at this point. If there is a possibility, as pointed out last night on the Abrams program, that there was an accomplice, and lightly insinuated that "one could have been checked out, yet the other still unknown" I would hope more light is shed concerning this. There are families ,other than the Ramseys, who have been under this umbrella, the Whites, the Mcreynolds, the Pughs, it would be interesting to know if the perpetrator has associations with any of these families.

 

[Eagle1]

The part about JonBenet crying, saying she didn't feel pretty, and the dispute over who "accidentally" called 911 sounds rather like Steve Thomas, rather than the R's themselves, so it's probably not in "Death of Innocence"? Where did we read all that? Usually I make notes in the margins about something I consider really big, but somehow didn't mark that night. I'll keep looking.