Off the fence?

[BBB167893]

I have the knowledge to read the words you have written, and I have the wisdom to understand I'm being insulted.

How's that?

Insulted? Really. If my intent was to insult, it's news to me.

Can you really believe the police department and FBI could show up at the house of a missing girl and not find her dead body in the basement? The ransome note is a message of some sort. It's code speaks to the right LE agents and its a threat to JR.

I never said it's purpose was to keep the body from being found. I said it was there to create an intruder and a motive for him/her.

and Super Dave...dont be "hatin'" as they say.. play nice and dont insult- I know myself im not the most intelligent person on this board but i am attempting to educate myself more on this case and trying to figure out some stuff,...so there

to wit:

I really don't think Dave was being insulting, that's not his style.

Thank you. No, it isn't my style. No sense in it.

Maybe not Narlacat. It at the very least is a pretentious remark. Either way I'm just having some fun. It was not meant to be a mean spirited reply. I'm just wondering if SD has considered my opinion on the difference and if it is at all close to his thoughts.

Pretentious? I was simply speaking from my own life experiences. Perhaps it is close, perhaps not.

When has a crime such as this ever happened prior to JBR's death or since? When has there ever been a ransom note novel found within the home indicating kidnapping by a Foreign Faction, requesting ransom, with the child victim, sexually abused within her own home, at the time of her death, with her body having been found within that same home and with all the physical evidence used to create the scene of the crime having been determined to have come from within this same home?

To my knowledge, never.

I have never heard of a case other than JBR that included so many CONVOLUTED, warped combinations. The ransom note plus the evidence equals the intention of indicating that a sexual preditor and foreign faction kidnapping gone wrong occured. In addition, all of this resulted from evidence originating from inside the home of the victim. Please educate me if you are indeed aware of a case that I have missed. What other case ever included all of these elements???

I'd like to hear it myself.

 

[jubie]

I think the Rams thought they were being clever not leaving a door or window open/broken in the begining. I think they figured it would make it more believeable that it was someone close to them that kidnapped/murdered JonBenet. The Ransom note indicated personal information and John himself said he thought it was an 'inside job'. Patsy tried to throw Linda(house keeper) under the bus right from the get-go. It makes more sense to not show forced entry when you consider how the Rams thought events would unfold. :twocents:


Jubie

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

if JB was in such a deep coma after the head bash that they Ramseys probably thought she was dead, they must have know that something really bad had happened to her brain. And they might have done her hair in pigtails to suggest that nothing had happened to that area: no disheveled hair from a vicious head blow, etc.
The parents must have been in a total panic after what had happened, therefore the whole staging business was not done sophisticated in any way.



No, I can't see Patsy sending JB to a Christmas party with her hair done like that either.
But remember that the Whites knew which hairstyle JB as wearing at their party - so the Ramseys could not very well have lied about that by saying JB was wearing those pigtails to the Whites'.
Do you know if the Ramseys ever explained why JB's hair was tied in those pigtails?

The Ramseys were no sophisticated criminals who knew how to stage a scene. So it must have made sense to them to inflict this injury for staging purposes.
I don't see them as sadists who would have inflicted this (like Dr. McCann stated) extremely painful injury to their alive and conscious child.


Yes, but did Dr. Meyer explicitly speak of chronic abuse? Maybe he was referring to the acute injury when stating that someone had inserted their finger inside JonBenet?

rashomon,

if JB was in such a deep coma after the head bash that they Ramseys probably thought she was dead, they must have know that something really bad had happened to her brain. And they might have done her hair in pigtails to suggest that nothing had happened to that area: no disheveled hair from a vicious head blow, etc.
The parents must have been in a total panic after what had happened, therefore the whole staging business was not done sophisticated in any way.

So it was cosmetic, also this assumes both parents were present when she was killed? So when it comes to the abduction from her bed, remember Patsy checking her room, how come they want to place hair-ties on her that were never there when she was placed in bed? Similar reasoning applies to the size-12 underwear.

Do you know if the Ramseys ever explained why JB's hair was tied in those pigtails?

No.

Yes, but did Dr. Meyer explicitly speak of chronic abuse? Maybe he was referring to the acute injury when stating that someone had inserted their finger inside JonBenet?

...

Source: January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

This tells you that there was an injury and there was sexual contact e.g. not simply staging.

Source: JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report 12/27/96

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen

This tells you an external substance was discovered e.g. birefringent foreign material

Both pieces of evidence together suggest Coroner Meyer is itemizing two distinct possibilities which do not need to be exclusive, but his use of technical language and comments suggest that they are exclusive. Since assault by paintbrush handle is just that, penetration by a finger is sexual contact.

Taken along with other remarks regarding the unnatural enlargement of JonBenet's hymen I assume this to be chronic unless you wish to pin everything down to the time of her death?


.

 

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by rashomon
UKGuy,

if JB was in such a deep coma after the head bash that they Ramseys probably thought she was dead, they must have know that something really bad had happened to her brain. And they might have done her hair in pigtails to suggest that nothing had happened to that area: no disheveled hair from a vicious head blow, etc.
The parents must have been in a total panic after what had happened, therefore the whole staging business was not done sophisticated in any way.

rashomon,

So it was cosmetic, also this assumes both parents were present when she was killed? So when it comes to the abduction from her bed, remember Patsy checking her room, how come they want to place hair-ties on her that were never there when she was placed in bed? Similar reasoning applies to the size-12 underwear.

I believe both parents were involved in the staging of the scene, and therefore also present when the cord was finally tied around JBs neck.
But I think the initial head bash may have been inflicted with only one parent being present (an enraged Patsy for example).

Re the hair ties: I vaguely remember Patsy stating that JB used to wear her hair in pigtails to bed, but I'm not quite sure. But would a child wear velvet hair ties to bed?
People with thick long hair sometimes wear it braided when going to bed to prevent entangling, but JB's hair was neither thick nor really long - so why should she wear it in pigtails to bed?

 

[jubie]

Rashomom or UKGuy,

Could either of you please desribe how her hair was done up? From different descriptions in the past I really am unclear as to how it was tied up....

TIA
Jubie

 

[UKGuy]

I believe both parents were involved in the staging of the scene, and therefore also present when the cord was finally tied around JBs neck.
But I think the initial head bash may have been inflicted with only one parent being present (an enraged Patsy for example).

Re the hair ties: I vaguely remember Patsy stating that JB used to wear her hair in pigtails to bed, but I'm not quite sure. But would a child wear velvet hair ties to bed?
People with thick long hair sometimes wear it braided when going to bed to prevent entangling, but JB's hair was neither thick nor really long - so why should she wear it in pigtails to bed?

rashomon,

So either the hair-ties refer to a previous staging that has not been revised, or she wore them to bed, but it does not seem that she ever made it to her bed. Anyway what are they doing spread all over her bedroom floor, they were kept in her bathroom.

I accept girls wear there hair up, braided or in pigtails when in bed, but nowhere have I seen it stated by a Ramsey that this was common practise?

Similar applies to the size-12 underwear, why should JonBenet potentially add to the washbasket if she wets the bed?

It all suggests there is more to the case than first appears.



.

 

[rashomon]

Rashomom or UKGuy,

Could either of you please desribe how her hair was done up? From different descriptions in the past I really am unclear as to how it was tied up....

TIA
Jubie

There exists an artist's renditon of how JB's body was found, and that's where one can see how her hair was done. Does anyone have the link to it?
The artist's rendition was based on coroner Dr. Meyer's autopsy statements.

 

[jubie]

There exists an artist's renditon of how JB's body was found, and that's where one can see how her hair was done. Does anyone have the link to it?
The artist's rendition was based on coroner Dr. Meyer's autopsy statements.

Rashomom,

Thanks for your response, I hope someone will post a link or let me know where to go look for it.


Thanks,
Jubie

 

[cynpat2000]

Is this it?

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

OK here is the artists impression

And here is JonBenet on Xmas Day, similar hairstyle?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Is this it?

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

Thanks thats the one.

 

[4sure]

Insulted? Really. If my intent was to insult, it's news to me..

It can be hard to learn to distinguish the difference between intent and result.

I never said it's purpose was to keep the body from being found. I said it was there to create an intruder and a motive for him/her.

This would be the most common and obvious conception. One that we see LE ate up like donuts. Motive is already provided given the state of JBR's body.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
But the stagers mistake is that JonBenet did not go to the White's party with her hair tied up in asymmetric ponytails, can you see Patsy allowing that, is this why the Party Photographs have never been released? Remember the Ramsey's state that JonBenet was, on returning from the White's, placed straight to bed, with longjohns being put on her, e.g. no hair-ties.

No I can't see PR allowing that,JB would look too much like a child! And PR was already pushing her into adulthood.I think PR was much too arrogant to allow JB,her mini-me, to dress like a child.
IMO that might be one reason the photo's weren't released..another is I think JB wore the RED shirt to the White's party,and that can be proven in the pics.If so then it's proven the R's lied,no doubt.If you saw the movie PMPT,there is a pic of JB and PR both wearing MATCHING RED SHIRTS.(it's pic of the actresses tho).Still, wouldn't that be a huge clue that the R's lied about the shirt?(In DOI,they say she wore the white shirt to the party).Why would they represent the pic to be that way if it wasn't true?

 

[capps]

Quote by JMO8778:
"If you saw the movie PMPT,there is a pic of JB and PR both wearing MATCHING RED SHIRTS.(it's pic of the actresses tho).Still, wouldn't that be a huge clue that the R's lied about the shirt?(In DOI,they say she wore the white shirt to the party).Why would they represent the pic to be that way if it wasn't true?"

Yes,I did see the movie,and when I saw that part,I wondered why I watched the movie at all.When they showed the picture,the background voice said it was the last picture of Patsy and JonBenet taken together. As we all know,and saw, the last pic of them together,was the two of them Christmas day morning in their night clothes.The movie had them in the same position as that morning picture,but both wearing red turtle necks.It's not the truth,it's called sensationalism.I was very disappointed in Schiller.

 

[IrishMist]

As far as the hair ties go... one of the things I've considered as a PDI is that she became enrage with JonBenét because JonBenét would not go to sleep.

I could see Patsy telling her and telling her, catching her up again and again. (Was one of those times when JonBenét popped a piece of pineapple into her mouth?)

But the last time would have been Patsy walking in on JonBenét, doing her hair in the bathroom. Did Patsy pick her up/drag her by the throat, (causing marks that had to be hidden) and THROW her into the bed- with JonBenét's head hitting the headboard with a sickening crunch?

I know it was late, I know they had to get up early. Patsy had packing to do, a trip the next day, and another right after their return. I know that when I was tired, it was sooo easy for my kids to push my buttons. So difficult for me to think straight.

I'll never forget when my mom was babysitting for me... I went into the bedroom, because I could hear her screeching. I walked in just in time to see her pick my child up, lift her into the air, and slam her down onto the bed! All the while screaming at my daughter to "take your G-----N nap!!"
(Still gives me shivers, and that child will be 21 in a week)

My point is this- my mom was over tired, over stressed and at her wits end.
Anyone you talk to that knows her will say that my mom is the sweetest lady they've ever met. Nice. Too nice, even.

But that day, she was pushed beyond her limit.

 

[coloradokares]

There is an artistic rendition here


http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

Rashomom,

Thanks for your response, I hope someone will post a link or let me know where to go look for it.


Thanks,
Jubie

 

[jubie]

There is an artistic rendition here


http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

Thanks Coloradokares,

In this picture it doesn't look like the hair nearest her neck is in a ponytail, is it supposed to be? Aren't there supposed to be two ponytails?


Thnx again.
Jubie

 

[coloradokares]

In reports I read it said two ponytails..... I thought as I would read that meant one at the neck one on top as artistically rendered. Almost forgive me like a loose Shih Tzu top knot formation..... on the top and one at the nape of the neck. Probably only I would see that as I am a Shih Tzu owner. Have you seen the autopsy photos. It looks like her hair got caught up into the cord. I have a very difficult time looking at those photo's. But I believe it looks more like the written description in the Autopsy photos. Perhaps an artistic rendition used some artistic license? The reason I chose that rendition is it is the one I knew of . Makes one ill to see even the artist rendition. Little hands....I can't hardly bare to think of it.

Thanks Coloradokares,

In this picture it doesn't look like the hair nearest her neck is in a ponytail, is it supposed to be? Aren't there supposed to be two ponytails?


Thnx again.
Jubie

 

[jubie]

In reports I read it said two ponytails..... I thought as I would read that meant one at the neck one on top as artistically rendered. Almost forgive me like a loose Shih Tzu top knot formation..... on the top and one at the nape of the neck. Probably only I would see that as I am a Shih Tzu owner. Have you seen the autopsy photos. It looks like her hair got caught up into the cord. I have a very difficult time looking at those photo's. But I believe it looks more like the written description in the Autopsy photos. Perhaps an artistic rendition used some artistic license? The reason I chose that rendition is it is the one I knew of . Makes one ill to see even the artist rendition. Little hands....I can't hardly bare to think of it.

Coloradokares,


No, I haven't seen the actual autopsy pictures and just can't bring myself to that's why I appreciate you linking an artists take on it.

Thanks again.
Jubie

 

[coloradokares]

It took me till this last summer to look at them. Finally I thought someone hurt this little girl. Nothing I'd ever heard or read had prepared me for seeing those little hands still in death. Her little neck bruised. When I saw the picture of her skull all it did was create within me a passion to never give up till I see Colorado My state of Colorado care enough to prosecute and convict the person(s) who did this. I don't care about politics I don't care about cost to the state treasury I care that JonBenet has a voice.

Coloradokares,


No, I haven't seen the actual autopsy pictures and just can't bring myself to that's why I appreciate you linking an artists take on it.

Thanks again.
Jubie