GUILTY OH - Ashley Zhao, 5, Jackson Township, 10 Jan 2017

[Spellbound]

Her husband was a U.S. citizen,but I'd guess she'd not gotten a green card, and attempted to gain citizenship? After three years as a permanent resident she could have attempted to become a citizen. Her youngest daughter was five, and eldest, six. Would she not have feared having to return w/o them?

Oh, she tried to stay. She applied for asylum in 2009, was denied and ordered deported. Appealed, and in 2012 she was denied again and ordered immediate deportation.

http://fox8.com/2017/01/12/north-canton-mom-charged-with-daughters-murder-ordered-deported-in-2012/

 

[Indy Anna]

Regarding cultural differences and the lack of emotion shown by these parents, Asian culture discourages people (esp men) from expressing emotion. Not thinking that applies so much to the mother, who was very cold-hearted in assaulting and killing her daughter, but possibly explains the man's reaction.

I remember a case (I believe there's a thread here on WS but can't remember the names) in which a father and daughter from an Asian family attended a camp together. The young adult daughter had mental problems and early in the stay, she had a mental breakdown and splashed water over the walls of the cabin. An electrical fire started and the father was able to escape but wasn't able to save his daughter. He was later arrested for his daughter's murder and convicted, solely on the grounds he must have been guilty because he showed no emotion. He served a number of years of his sentence before someone realized that he was actually grieving his daughter's death but refrained from expressing his grief due to cultural norms. His conviction was overturned.

As I understand, Ashley's body wasn't found until the parents were taken to the police station for questioning. One LE remained at the restaurant to ensure nothing in the crime scene was disturbed. So, if someone tipped off LE as to where Ashley's body was, didn't it have to be one of the parents? Not saying this is the case, but it's possible LZ confessed and told where to find Ashley once he was separated from MC. Maybe it was his idea to call 911 to report his daughter "missing" so LE would appear at the scene, but presented the idea to his wife in such a way that it seemed to her the best way of concealing her crime. She was heard in the background of the 911 call, apparently instructing LZ what to say. Her icy glares at her husband during the hearing suggest she is manipulative and calculating, and was attempting to manipulate LZ from a distance. LZ may be afraid of his wife and tried his best to intervene and report the crime. Not saying this for certain, but want to reserve judgment of LZ in case this is true.

MOO

 

[rsd1200]

Oh, she tried to stay. She applied for asylum in 2009, was denied and ordered deported. Appealed, and in 2012 she was denied again and ordered immediate deportation.

http://fox8.com/2017/01/12/north-canton-mom-charged-with-daughters-murder-ordered-deported-in-2012/

So, I'm reading that this was prior to her marriage to him, and birth of their children. She has a five and six year old. She applied in 2009, and it appears she married him prior to the 2012 determination, and then had the two children. Was this possibly a marriage, and family, of convenience to work toward her not being deported? I'm just wondering if being in a marriage of convenience could have possibly led to their problems?

 

[policyoftruth501]

So, I'm reading that this was prior to her marriage to him, and birth of their children. She has a five and six year old. She applied in 2009, and it appears she married him prior to the 2012 determination, and then had the two children. Was this possibly a marriage, and family, of convenience to work toward her not being deported? I'm just wondering if being in a marriage of convenience could have possibly led to their problems?

I was just thinking the same thing. Can't help but wonder if she really wanted children or if she had them just to have another reason to be able to stay in the country. All just speculation of course, but seems reasonable given what we know so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rsd1200]

A bit more about cultural differences.

China’s Harsh Child Discipline, Through the Lens of Domestic Violence
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/10/world/asia/china-corporal-punishment-education-discipline.html


At the time of this article's writing, 2012, China did not have a specific ‘child abuse’ law.
https://chinadailymail.com/2012/10/30/china-kindergarten-abuses-prompt-calls-for-new-legislation/


[FONT=&amp]Last month, China passed its first-ever [/FONT]national law against domestic violence[FONT=&amp], the result of a decade-long campaign driven by the country’s civil society groups.
http://asiafoundation.org/2016/01/2...stic-violence-its-no-longer-a-private-matter/[/FONT]

 

[Spellbound]

A bit more about cultural differences.

China’s Harsh Child Discipline, Through the Lens of Domestic Violence
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/10/world/asia/china-corporal-punishment-education-discipline.html


At the time of this article's writing, 2012, China did not have a specific ‘child abuse’ law.
https://chinadailymail.com/2012/10/30/china-kindergarten-abuses-prompt-calls-for-new-legislation/


[FONT=&amp]Last month, China passed its first-ever [/FONT]national law against domestic violence[FONT=&amp], the result of a decade-long campaign driven by the country’s civil society groups.
http://asiafoundation.org/2016/01/2...stic-violence-its-no-longer-a-private-matter/[/FONT]

Thanks for the articles. I do believe the cultural differences play a role here. Wondering who helped her initially get to US, friend, family, or ?

So, I'm reading that this was prior to her marriage to him, and birth of their children. She has a five and six year old. She applied in 2009, and it appears she married him prior to the 2012 determination, and then had the two children. Was this possibly a marriage, and family, of convenience to work toward her not being deported? I'm just wondering if being in a marriage of convenience could have possibly led to their problems?

I think it is a good possibility they expected marriage and children to be an asset in allowing her to stay.


Interesting info on how to obtain green card or citizenship, if anyone is interested:
eligibility: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-processes-and-procedures/green-card-eligibility

home page: https://www.dhs.gov/how-do-i/get-green-card

 

[Annie1004]

Her husband was a U.S. citizen,but I'd guess she'd not gotten a green card, and attempted to gain citizenship? After three years as a permanent resident she could have attempted to become a citizen. Her youngest daughter was five, and eldest, six. Would she not have feared having to return w/o them?

If Mingming had a green card, she would have been here legally. She claimed persecution if she returned to China in her application for asylum. The courts found inconsistencies in her story/paperwork, so she was ordered to leave the United States immediately. It did not happen because... well, we have a lot of illegals here and others who stay on expired visas. It is near impossible for Immigration to keep track of who is who.

Poor Ashley. I am sure she went through a lot of abuse in her short life. Culture or not, murder is the same in all cultures. No excuses as far as I am concerned.

 

[Niner]

I might have missed it reading this thread - does anyone know "when" the next court hearing is? Was it March 8th?? :thinking:

TIA!

:rose: RIP Ashley :rose:

 

[SaberTooth]

IMO I don't believe cultural differences are a huge part in this. Child abuse is a worldwide issue not just specific to China. Articles even written by MSM can be biased. Many Irish people as well as across the world turn to spiritual guidance as a method to 'heal their demons'. Which can be found from reading articles, or just being apart of that culture. You will see numerous stores dedicated to angels and items used to heal or give guidance in Ireland. Regarding China's legislation, in the U.K. It was legal for a man to rape his wife until 1991. That doesn't mean the UK encouraged this or all men raped their wife. I fear the demonisation of Chinese people, it is very easy to pick and choose parts of a culture we do not understand but that does not represent the culture as a whole. What these parents did or did not do is enitirely on them. There may be contributing factors however these factors can be found in many cultures and are not just specific to china. This is just my opinion.

 

[theirmommy]

IMO I don't believe cultural differences are a huge part in this. Child abuse is a worldwide issue not just specific to China. Articles even written by MSM can be biased. Many Irish people as well as across the world turn to spiritual guidance as a method to 'heal their demons'. Which can be found from reading articles, or just being apart of that culture. You will see numerous stores dedicated to angels and items used to heal or give guidance in Ireland. Regarding China's legislation, in the U.K. It was legal for a man to rape his wife until 1991. That doesn't mean the UK encouraged this or all men raped their wife. I fear the demonisation of Chinese people, it is very easy to pick and choose parts of a culture we do not understand but that does not represent the culture as a whole. What these parents did or did not do is enitirely on them. There may be contributing factors however these factors can be found in many cultures and are not just specific to china. This is just my opinion.

very well said. Thank you

 

[rsd1200]

If Mingming had a green card, she would have been here legally. She claimed persecution if she returned to China in her application for asylum. The courts found inconsistencies in her story/paperwork, so she was ordered to leave the United States immediately. It did not happen because... well, we have a lot of illegals here and others who stay on expired visas. It is near impossible for Immigration to keep track of who is who.

Poor Ashley. I am sure she went through a lot of abuse in her short life. Culture or not, murder is the same in all cultures. No excuses as far as I am concerned.

Yes, agreed, however, in reading some of the Chinese children's accounts of growing up, (on a blog, so I can't post it here.), it seems that in many homes it is not merely corporal punishment, that is meeted out. Children were hit with everything from a hand slap, to kicked, hit with rolling pins, given canings, hit with whatever was handy, etc... My point is that in China, beatings seem to be considered the business of the parents and are not that uncommon. Both parents may have been beaten at home. In China they have a saying; “To be beaten is a sign of affection, to be scolded is a sign of love." I'm not really making excuses for them, but, if they were brought up in homes where beatings were common, and seen as love...

One more article:
http://en.yibada.com/articles/11745...ing-cases-reported-in-china-ends-in-death.htm

 

[SaberTooth]

Yes, agreed, however, in reading some of the Chinese children's accounts of growing up, (on a blog, so I can't post it here.), it seems that in many homes it is not merely corporal punishment, that is meeted out. Children were hit with everything from a hand slap, to kicked, hit with rolling pins, given canings, hit with whatever was handy, etc... My point is that in China, beatings seem to be considered the business of the parents and are not that uncommon. Both parents may have been beaten at home. In China they have a saying; “To be beaten is a sign of affection, to be scolded is a sign of love." I'm not really making excuses for them, but, if they were brought up in homes where beatings were common, and seen as love...

One more article:
http://en.yibada.com/articles/11745...ing-cases-reported-in-china-ends-in-death.htm

I think you are not understanding what I am trying to say. My point is although in China beating's etc may be present it is also present in other countries. For example I can say well there are Christians who belief in gay conversion therapy and actively encourage its use, but that is not saying all Christian's encourage this, and it can be found in other religions. It's not specific to Christianity. We shouldn't demonise the Chinese because of a few blog posts picked at random. Abuse in the home can be found everywhere. Irish people beat their kids, so do Americans does that's mean it is all down to culture or down to the person? This is just MHO

 

[osu]

Accused Jackson mother's religious claims don't jibe, says Falun Gong expert
Sunday, Posted at 11:00am

In 2009, Mingming Chen, a Chinese national living in Jackson Township, applied for political asylum based on a claim that she was a member of the Falun Gong, a persecuted religious group.

Falun Gong is a relatively new faith that combines ancient Chinese folk religion and medicine and Buddhist tenets with Qigong, a series of exercises designed to heal and harness energy.

But Tianlun Jiang, a Falun Gong practitioner who lives in Cleveland, has serious doubts about Chen's claim amid allegations Chen killed her young daughter last week and falsely claimed the child had disappeared from their Jackson Township restaurant, Ang's Asian Cuisine on Portage Street NW.

"Falun Gong teaches people to be truthful, compassionate and tolerant," Jiang said. "It teaches people to be good, not lie. It teaches you to be kind to everyone, and of course, that would include your daughter."

Jiang said the Falun Gong community in Northeast Ohio is such that if Chen was a practitioner, someone would recognize her.

~snip

"I don't know her," Jiang said. "She didn't approach any of us. We didn't know she applied (for asylum); nobody knows her. Also, we generally practice together regularly. Nobody knows her in the greater Cleveland area, or even in Ohio. I've talked to many people in Ohio. Nobody knows her."

~snip

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170...gious-claims-dont-jibe-says-falun-gong-expert

 

[rsd1200]

I think you are not understanding what I am trying to say. My point is although in China beating's etc may be present it is also present in other countries. For example I can say well there are Christians who belief in gay conversion therapy and actively encourage its use, but that is not saying all Christian's encourage this, and it can be found in other religions. It's not specific to Christianity. We shouldn't demonise the Chinese because of a few blog posts picked at random. Abuse in the home can be found everywhere. Irish people beat their kids, so do Americans does that's mean it is all down to culture or down to the person? This is just MHO

.
I'm not demonizing them. I'm speaking to culture. The articles are out there by the scores. This is a culture that until recently didn't even have laws on the books re; divorce. While it was technically illegal to beat someone in your family, it was considered a household matter rather than a societal one. Victims were told to solve it themselves. Even the new law only provides for seven years in prison for abuse that leads to serious injury, or death. Change is occurring but it's not an overnight thing.

China's Domestic Violence Law
http://time.com/3606802/china-domestic-violence-law-spousal-abuse-legislation/

When a Chinese immigrant mother beat her 8-year-old son with a broomstick last month because he had not been doing his homework, she thought she was acting within the bounds of traditional Chinese disciplinary practices, and did not realize the trouble she was creating for her family.

''In Asia, your child is considered your property and you can do whatever you want,'' he said. ''In the Western culture, it's not the case.''

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/nyregion/cultural-divide-over-parental-discipline.html


Child Discipline: Asian vs. American. Asian
http://freshgrads.sg/articles/career-money/life-skills/1901-child-discipline-asian-vs-american

 

[jjenny]

.
I'm not demonizing them. I'm speaking to culture. The articles are out there by the scores. This is a culture that until recently didn't even have laws on the books re; divorce. While it was technically illegal to beat someone in your family, it was considered a household matter rather than a societal one. Victims were told to solve it themselves. Even the new law only provides for seven years in prison for abuse that leads to serious injury, or death. Change is occurring but it's not an overnight thing.

China's Domestic Violence Law
http://time.com/3606802/china-domestic-violence-law-spousal-abuse-legislation/




http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/nyregion/cultural-divide-over-parental-discipline.html


Child Discipline: Asian vs. American. Asian
http://freshgrads.sg/articles/career-money/life-skills/1901-child-discipline-asian-vs-american

He's lived here in US for over 20 years. Which means he was a minor when he arrived in the US. Why are people using culture as an excuse? What is the relevance of Chinese laws to this case, when this guy was living in US for most of his life and should presumably know full well what laws are in US. This guy was living in US for most of his life and for all his adult life.

 

[SaberTooth]

.
I'm not demonizing them. I'm speaking to culture. The articles are out there by the scores. This is a culture that until recently didn't even have laws on the books re; divorce. While it was technically illegal to beat someone in your family, it was considered a household matter rather than a societal one. Victims were told to solve it themselves. Even the new law only provides for seven years in prison for abuse that leads to serious injury, or death. Change is occurring but it's not an overnight thing.

China's Domestic Violence Law
http://time.com/3606802/china-domestic-violence-law-spousal-abuse-legislation/




http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/nyregion/cultural-divide-over-parental-discipline.html


Child Discipline: Asian vs. American. Asian
http://freshgrads.sg/articles/career-money/life-skills/1901-child-discipline-asian-vs-american

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/786990.shtml

"It is also worth noting that the U.S. is relatively unusual in terms of attitudes, prevalence, and legal sanctions. Hitting children is more culturally acceptable in American than in many other nations – not only by parents, but by teachers corporal punishment in schools is still permitted in 19 states). In many nations, physical punishment of children has now been outlawed, even for parents."
Corporal punishment is not just spanking but can include the use of a closed fist and a belt as stated in this article. IMO belt and broomstick can both cause significant damage to a child.

Here is a link which demonstrates amount of time that can be served in America (varies between states) on how much time an indivudals can serve for child abuse including in cases of death: https://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/2000-r-1064.htm

As you can see this shows individuals can serve as little as 5 years for willingly causing the death of a child. Does this mean by your argument, Americas culture is similar to China's? I respect your viewpoint, and understand there are issues in China regarding child welfare and legislation. But these are similar issues throughout the globe, to use a persons culture as a way of explaining their crime is insensitive to that culture. More specifically if you are stating a global issue as one just specific to China. Just MHO

 

[rsd1200]

He's lived here in US for over 20 years. Which means he was a minor when he arrived in the US. Why are people using culture as an excuse? What is the relevance of Chinese laws to this case, when this guy was living in US for most of his life and should presumably know full well what laws are in US. This guy was living in US for most of his life and for all his adult life.

.
She was not raised here though. We also do not know if his parents raised him in traditional Chinese culture w/regard toward Asian vs American corporal punishment. It's been noted that their demeanor in court is most likely from culture and upbringing. I'm not making excuses for killing one's child but there is a difference in cultures, and how things are viewed, in spousal abuse, and child abuse, as it is seen in America vs. Asian countries.

 

[SaberTooth]

.
She was not raised here though. We also do not know if his parents raised him in traditional Chinese culture w/regard toward Asian vs American corporal punishment. It's been noted that their demeanor in court is most likely from culture and upbringing. I'm not making excuses for killing one's child but there is a difference in cultures, and how things are viewed, in spousal abuse, and child abuse, as it is seen in America vs. Asian countries.

RE: bolded by me

Their demeanour in court does not relate to a culture of abuse. Secondly they have not spent enough time in court to truly justify the comments their demeanour is from their culture and upbringing, as someone previously stated the man arrived from a young age, so by that point he spent much of his upbringing in America, so if its reflective of any culture it's American. I have pointed out similarities in American and Chinese behaviours towards children and legislation. Which refutes the point the cultures our entirely different. Child abuse is present in every culture, which I have provided evidence for. To state China is a culture of beating children and abuse is to state the same for America. It is very easy to put a culture or country you do not understand in to a box it does not fit. The comments are offensive. Corporal punishment is present in both countries but I see no arguments being made saying America's culture has played a role in the death of this child. There is no evidence at this time to support the theory their culture caused them to abuse their child resulting in this child's death. Just MHO.

 

[Spellbound]

He's lived here in US for over 20 years. Which means he was a minor when he arrived in the US. Why are people using culture as an excuse? What is the relevance of Chinese laws to this case, when this guy was living in US for most of his life and should presumably know full well what laws are in US. This guy was living in US for most of his life and for all his adult life.

I don't believe anyone is making excuses for either parent, just trying to understand some of their demeanor. And any speculation is just that. None of us know these people and we do not know if they made efforts to adapt to American culture, how they may have been raised or what their beliefs actually are. They do not appear to have made a social circle of friends, so it is likely their Asian heritage still plays a role in their parenting skills and other aspects of their lives. JMO, of course.

I don't see any offensive comments being made, nor excuses for killing a child in any country, despite their culture or laws. It is normal to question, especially at a place such as WS, and to try to understand what could possibly be inherent that allows one to think cruelty or murder could be a chosen action.


The laws re green cards/citizenship is only for reference and understanding of how she may have failed to qualify.

 

[blue22]

If a father murdered his daughter, because she flirted with a boy...would we still be taking about culture? Do we get to choose who gets this privilege of culture explaining?

I don't care where they are from. They are here now. They have been here long enough to know what happens to child abusers. And they KNEW it was wrong and illegal, so they hid her body and lied. They are at the mercy of the justice system here, the place they chose to live. I hope they experience the fullest extent that our system can hand.

Guys, they knew. They knew it was wrong, they knew there would be consequences. They CHOSE to be abusers, their "culture" did not choose it for them. We know nothing about what their culture might be, but we know about their beaten and deceased daughter.

JMO.