OH - Chanan Palmer, 31, & 4 kids killed in arson fire, Greenville, 16 Sept 2007

[JBean]

That's the only link I didn't click on and I seem to be fine.

hi ntegrity

 

[KatK]

That's the only link I didn't click on and I seem to be fine.

I would hope it wouldn't be the Crime Library link! Court/Tru TV surely wouldn't allow that?!

 

[Ntegrity]

hi ntegrity

Hey beaner. I hope your 'puter feels better soon.

 

[Amraann]

Do you agree that gays are (usually) born, not made? What about bi-polar people? Surely you agree that there are mental illnesses that people are born with? ETA: Read here, and here. Here is what Katherine Ramsland has to say as well.

I think that "gays " have nothing to with this..child molesters should not ever be equated with gay people. Nor should an abused child.

 

[KatK]

i don't know which one it was I was opening them all. I cannot get my computer to work right trying to run a virus scan but it won't respond properly. I hit the link and literally ONE HUNDRED windows opened up and they were not stopping. i'll be back when i can get my comp to work.
it was defintiely the link and maybe the right bug got through my protection. beware.
i can't type well on my baclkberry

I wish I knew which link it was, so I could pull it! Is there a way a techie could safely check the links to see which one is the problem? adnoid? I wouldn't have posted them if I'd had any problems! Please, I hope you get your computer back all ok! Aieeeeeeeeeee!

 

[KatK]

I think that "gays " have nothing to with this..child molesters should not ever be equated with gay people. Nor should an abused child.

Did you think I was somehow badmouthing those who are gay? Cause I wasn't. But, many people who are gay, themselves say they were born that way. And, they have found a "gay" gene too, haven't they? So...

 

[Ntegrity]

No, it isn't. True diagnosed psychopaths are like schizophrenics. They are mentally ill, and there is an organic component at the root of it.

Oops, I found a point we disagree on. They're not classified as mentally ill, although I do believe their brains are wired differently than "normal" people.

 

[KatK]

Oops, I found a point we disagree on. They're not classified as mentally ill, although I do believe their brains are wired differently than "normal" people.

I can see how you'd read that into it, BUT for the record:

I DO NOT THINK GAY PEOPLE ARE MENTALLY ILL!!! NOT AT ALL! Only if they are also mentally ill as well as being gay, (er, like a bi-polar lesbian I met years ago) BUT LOVING/BEING SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE SAME GENDER IS NOT A MENTAL ILLNESS!!! I just happen to realize that many are born that way, just as bi-polars are born with different brains.

Just to clarify...

ETA: Giant purple (and orange) text there for the purpose of showing exactly how emphatic my statement is, and to be sure it is not missed somehow. I am not yelling or being hostile, I am trying to be sure I show exactly how strongly I feel, and that it isn't overlooked. That is all.

 

[Ntegrity]

KatK, I didn't mention gays. That was someone else. I was referring to psychopaths.

 

[KatK]

KatK, I didn't mention gays. That was someone else. I was referring to psychopaths.

:blushing: Ah, heh... I'd just realized how the one post of mine could be taken and was about to post a clarification when I saw your "one point we disagree on" post.

 

[southcitymom]

..... Two, way too many arm chair psychologists who have absolutely zero training are too ready to label people based upon their reported extant behavior. .......

It's interesting that you bring this up. My sister read another book about sociopaths a few years ago called "The Psychopath Next Door" and she said it was the biggest bunch of junk in the world - basically, the author was labeling people who were simply a$$holes as sociopaths.

My sister, however, is an arm chair psychiatrist and has been since she came out of the womb. Believe me - she knows what's wrong with you and she'll tell you!!

 

[shadowraiths]

Do you agree that gays are (usually) born, not made?

And being gay has exactly "what?" to do with this discussion?

 

[southcitymom]

And being gay has exactly "what?" to do with this discussion?

Poor KatK - I think she has responded! She was trying to point out that many gay people are born gay - likewise, many sociopaths are born sociopaths.

 

[believe09]

I cannot recall the context, but I remember viewing a special on sociopaths and psychopaths. At the time, the testing they were doing was with a gentleman who was diagnosed as psychopathic but rather than murder his mayhem of choice was armed robbery. He never killed anyone, but enjoyed taking things away from people by force. He was hooked up to electrodes to determine first what certain images caused responses in his brain that would be the equivilent of triggering a pleasure center...for example he registered no response to simply , but he would react when viewing images of car wrecks. The next step was to determine how his sense of touch vs. smell etc...Interestingly enough, it was clear that he had much more limited nerve endings in his skin. Therefore someone stroking his skin would have no effect-he didn't really feel the basic warmth of touch.

You can really drill this out-he was of above average intelligence but he was isolated from average people because he could not feel what they felt....he couldn't relate to pain and suffering the same way. I think that the study was done in England and that this was a common story with psychopaths, hence some of the need to experience things in the extreme without the ability to empathize with their victims....am I making sense?

 

[KatK]

And being gay has exactly "what?" to do with this discussion?

Born, not made. And see the post with the giant purple text.

 

[Ntegrity]

My son has a very flat EEG and I think that's symptomatic of most psychopaths.

 

[shadowraiths]

I didn't say he was a psychopath. I concede it is possible he is a psychopath, but I admit I don't know. But even if he isn't a psychopath, he knew the action he was taking was wrong, and he did it anyway. In fact, if he were a psychopath, my take would more be along the lines of "Keep him in the mental hospital, out of society so he cannot go on to do more harm." instead of "Let him suffer the punishment he has earned."

And I did not claim you did. As for your diagnosis theory? There is no such diagnosis under either the DSM-IV-TR or the ICD 10. Sociopathy & psychopathy are simply used by some to clarify a pathological behavior within the antisocial personality disorder taxon. And though it is called a disorder, APD, is an axis II diagnosis that is designed to describe a pathological way of being, as opposed to an acute mental disorder. And btw, and fwiw, APD cannot be ethically diagnosed in juveniles due to developmental considerations. The childhood diagnosis that is considered synonymous with the adult APD is Conduct Disorder.

As for psychopathy? It is commonly tested for using Robert Hare's PCL-R (psychopathy check list - revised). A tool, btw, which is used along with other forensic tools (i.e., VRAG, SORAG, etc) by some forensic psychologist who do risk assessments. Even so, the PCL-R is only used as an ancillary tool. As for children? There is the belief (also promoted by Hare) that children as young as 11 years old, can be classified under the psychopathy umbrella. Hence, his PCL:YV (psychopathy check list, youth version). Hare's opinion wrt psychopathy detection in children is still very much contested within the field however. Simply bc there are far too many other confounding factors. The least of which involves a child's developmental trajectory, which some claim calls into question the validity and reliability of his data.

 

[KatK]

What is your take on the brainscan evidence then? The "organic" component? It isn't all nurture, it is *also* nature.

 

[shadowraiths]

He was hooked up to electrodes to determine first what certain images caused responses in his brain that would be the equivilent of triggering a pleasure center...for example he registered no response to simply , but he would react when viewing images of car wrecks. The next step was to determine how his sense of touch vs. smell etc...Interestingly enough, it was clear that he had much more limited nerve endings in his skin. Therefore someone stroking his skin would have no effect-he didn't really feel the basic warmth of touch.

You can really drill this out-he was of above average intelligence but he was isolated from average people because he could not feel what they felt....he couldn't relate to pain and suffering the same way. I think that the study was done in England and that this was a common story with psychopaths, hence some of the need to experience things in the extreme without the ability to empathize with their victims....am I making sense?

There is research that indicates those with psychopathic tendencies have a very high excitation threshhold and under/non-existent empathic response, so to speak.

Wrt the prior, high excitation thressholds equate to what generally excites us is often a "so what?" to them. Some progress has been made in this area as it pertains to identifying brain structures/systems. For example, the ventral vagal system (which is considered by researchers to be that part which regulates the flight/fight response to trauma). Within this model, researchers propose that chronic trauma breaks this system. There is the drug model of criminal behavior as well. Even so, both of these models seem to indicate that the limbic system (pictured below) plays a significant role.

As for empathy (or lack thereof)? Some geneticists proffer that it is not what is there, rather, what is missing. In other words, they believe psychopaths are missing the genetic material that allows us, as social beings, to empathize. The arguable flip side of this same coin involves those who have an overly responsive empathic response to others situations (we tend to call these types empaths). This latter can actually grow physically ill when someone is harmed. Emotionally or physically.

As for extant behavior? I would venture to say that both models still require a somewhat cyclic process involving increased rationalizations toward crime.

 

[Truly]

KatK, may I suggest that you temporarily delete the links which JBean opened in an effort to save others from accidentally opening them and possibly experiencing the same problem?

Embedding links in text is a handy tool, but I prefer to see the link itself before deciding whether or not to open it. "Here" could go just about anywhere! Thanks.

This is an interesting discussion to read. I have never studied these issues, but I appreciate reading this informed debate.