OH - Larry Mugrage, 15, fatally shot, Batavia, 19 March 2006

[dark_shadows]

I agree with you, kids do need to be taught to respect property and maybe more than that, they need to be taught that some people go absolutely ape-shi# over property and it could get them killed!

Eve

The story that I posted above happened on a well traveled path that the public used for years.Matt had repect for the property and made sure that he followed the saftey rules when he purchased his atv.He wore a helmet and was not speeding.
Landowners do not have a free pass to kill.I own land and children and adults go to the pond I have in my backyard all of the time.They are not hurting anything,they do not litter or deface anything.If I did not want them there,I would post a no sign.I would not set a "man trap"(that is what the person did that killed Matthew.)and I do not stand on my back deck with a shotgun picking of people who are on my property who are not a threat..

 

[eve]

The story that I posted above happened on a well traveled path that the public used for years.Matt had repect for the property and made sure that he followed the saftey rules when he purchased his atv.He wore a helmet and was not speeding.
Landowners do not have a free pass to kill.I own land and children and adults go to the pond I have in my backyard all of the time.They are not hurting anything,they do not litter or deface anything.If I did not want them there,I would post a no sign.I would not set a "man trap"(that is what the person did that killed Matthew.)and I do not stand on my back deck with a shotgun picking of people who are on my property who are not a threat..

OMG Dark, I totally agree with you! When we were little we ran all over the place - it was part of childhood. But there was always some crabby-azz who made a big deal out of our being in his yard and that made us go there all the more!

We NEVER dreamed anyone would flip out and shoot us!

I just meant that kids probably do need to be told that there are crazy people so obsessed with property that they commit an unspeakable crime - the murder of a young person. It is no excuse and there is no justification for it and I hope they rot in prison, but I think the increase in people reacting with rage over minor issues (whether it's road rage or yard rage) makes me think we should warn our kids!

Eve

 

[dark_shadows]

OMG Dark, I totally agree with you! When we were little we ran all over the place - it was part of childhood. But there was always some crabby-azz who made a big deal out of our being in his yard and that made us go there all the more!

We NEVER dreamed anyone would flip out and shoot us!

I just meant that kids probably do need to be told that there are crazy people so obsessed with property that they commit an unspeakable crime - the murder of a young person. It is no excuse and there is no justification for it and I hope they rot in prison, but I think the increase in people reacting with rage over minor issues (whether it's road rage or yard rage) makes me think we should warn our kids!

Eve

Hi Eve ,
Thanks for the post.You are so right about parents informing their children.You are also right about the increase in rage.We had a man a short time ago run teenagers off the road killing them.He claimed road rage.My son knows to let things go on the road because we have had discussions on this subject.
You have very good morals Eve and I thank-you for that.I have respect for what you posted.I do not however have respect for any murderous landowner who thinks that their land is worth more than a human life.There was no immanent threat to justify protection of landowner life on the property.

 

[Amraann]

That story is awful and sad DK.

But they knew it wasnt there yard. as for your pond ... Its all fine and all that people just ignore that someone (not them) owns that property ..

But what is going to happen when someone injures themselves or drowns?
I don't know about elsewhere but in Florida a pool or lake or pond in ones yard would be considered an attraction or inticement and if you don't make efforts to prevent people from going there then your liable in the case of an accident.

 

[Boilly]

You know I feel bad for all the parties involved in this event. I feel bad this kid was killed but I can also empathize with the guy who was harrassed. The problem with some kids (and their parents) is that they have no consideration. Yup, I ran around when I was little just like many of you with no regard to boundaries or fences. And I too had a crabby neighbor who took care of her lawn and didn't want kids playing in it. And guess what - we didn't. Because if we got caught our parents would have been mad at us for not listening. But many people today don't respect another person's right to ownership. I have a right in this country to buy and own property. And as crazy as it sounds this guy had a right to maintain his yard as meticulously as he wanted even if he wanted to measure the length of the grass. Instead it sounds like the kids, with the encouragement of the parents, went out of their way to harass this guy. It's too bad some kid was killed but it's not all because of a crazy, mentally-ill neighbor. I'm sure there is more to the story, and I don't justify the shooting, but from what I've heard/read so far I think this kid was a punk who drove his neighbor crazy.

 

[dark_shadows]

That story is awful and sad DK.

But they knew it wasnt there yard. as for your pond ... Its all fine and all that people just ignore that someone (not them) owns that property ..

But what is going to happen when someone injures themselves or drowns?
I don't know about elsewhere but in Florida a pool or lake or pond in ones yard would be considered an attraction or inticement and if you don't make efforts to prevent people from going there then your liable in the case of an accident.

Hello Amraann,
It is very nice to hear from you.
I have owned this property for 12 years and people have been enjoying the pond prior to my purchase.The sellers informed me about the visitors.
I have insurance and nothing has happened.You are right in saying that people can sue.You can also have a visitor slip and fall in your yard or driveway and sue you.It can happen by a guest in your own home.Your dog can bite a guest and you can be sued.
Where I reside,it is set back in a small neighborhood,dead end street with a cul de sac.It is not an area that is seen from the street.It is in my backyard not known to the general public.It is a wooded area and no public road leading to the pond and you would not know that it is there from my driveway or the street.The ones who visit the pond are neighbors and their friends.It is an established neighborhood with very very few home sales.The pond is long and narrow,it is not something that anyone can swim in.It is not something that can be enjoyed by anyone other than neighbors and their guests.

 

[dark_shadows]

Its all fine and all that people just ignore that someone (not them) owns that property.

Hi Amraann,


In Matt's case,the landowner allowed people to enjoy the land for years.One cannot allow enjoyment for years like this one did and then turn around and set a "man trap" without posting a sign and checking the property for hazards.Like you said,the landowner is liable.The landowner admitted to placing the cable.The landowner is supposed to be liable.The landowner in Matt's case got away with murder.

 

[Amraann]

I think that is nice and sound like it works out for you and your close knit neighbors


Sorry in my previous post I called you DK I meant DS

I lived on the opposite end of the ATV issue. At one of the parks hubby managed there were 100's of acres not open to the public.
Plenty of Atv'ers felt that because the land was there it was theirs to explore and destroy. ATV's are not kind to sensative areas that are trying to be preserved.
Anyhow my house was in one of these non public areas. Very wooded area.
People in ATV's use to go flying through my yard constantly. This was really dangerous as I had children and pets there.
It was fenced. But that did not stop anyone. This being said it doesn't negligate or justify what happend to your friends son.
However, I think it highights a critical issue for both ends of the spectrum.
Those that like to ATV either need to own their own property for them to enjoy it on or rally together to request certain lands be designated for that purpose.
Not to go to far off topic ... I just think the issue here really boils down to people respecting others property. Its tragic that all of these things happend.
The fact is that many may use others property as they wish ... and maybe they don't know who owns it but they certainly know if they don't own it.

In your example with your pond it sounds like your neighbors know they may use it at will ... Which is nice and how more people should be.

 

[dark_shadows]

Amraann,

I thought nothing of it when you posted the initals,I knew what you meant ,thank-you.
I appereciate what you said about my neighbors.They were instrumental in sending samples of frogs and salamanders to a university to study mutant frogs in Vermont and the U.S..

 

[Beyond Belief]

Too bad this got to the point of this horrible tragedy. I lived in a house that had boys next door who walked across the front patio to get to the house on the other side of us. They thought they were so "cute" if the windows were open they would shout "hi" through the window. When I asked their dad to get them to stop, he was abusive to me. The next day I had a fence installed. As the years went by, the boys grew up and left. The dad & I became best friends. I was sorry when I had to move away. I still miss my friend. I was so mad at him for years that I never told him the boys were pushing his car out of the drive way and then starting it up taking it for a joy ride at 2 in the morning when they were 12 and 13. If your kids are annoying your neighbors its your responsibility to put a stop to it. I am just so sad this man didn't move or put a fence up.

 

[bykerladi]

Call me naive, but how was Matt’s death NOT murder? Or at least manslaughter? When I was in law school, we were taught that death is only an acceptable defense when you were protecting a PERSON, not property. In fact, we read a case about a man who put a shotgun booby trap in his garage which shot a burglar in the knee – he went to jail. I don’t understand why Matt’s killer wasn’t charged with SOMETHING. And if you don’t want people on your property, put a LARGE chain on across the road – not a thin wire that kills people. How can you get so mad at people using a road that doesn’t even bother you that when someone dies you don’t care? Since when has property become more important than life?

 

[dark_shadows]

Too bad this got to the point of this horrible tragedy. I lived in a house that had boys next door who walked across the front patio to get to the house on the other side of us. They thought they were so "cute" if the windows were open they would shout "hi" through the window. When I asked their dad to get them to stop, he was abusive to me. The next day I had a fence installed. As the years went by, the boys grew up and left. The dad & I became best friends. I was sorry when I had to move away. I still miss my friend. I was so mad at him for years that I never told him the boys were pushing his car out of the drive way and then starting it up taking it for a joy ride at 2 in the morning when they were 12 and 13. If your kids are annoying your neighbors its your responsibility to put a stop to it. I am just so sad this man didn't move or put a fence up.

I have a large deck on the front of my house,The window to my kitchen is low and large.One of the neighbors son yelled in the window to my son.I let his parents know and it was stopped.They were not rude at all.I am sorry that you have such a disrespectful neighbor.You did become friends with him,but at the time of the incident,you said he was disrespectful.
I have had neighbors walk across my lawn,I have walked across their lawn.We know that there is no malicious intent.When my neighbors have had get togethers and no room in their driveway,people can park in my driveway.We all have an understanding.Communication and respect go a long way.Our neighborhood is small and closeknit.All due to the communication and respect factor.

 

[Beyond Belief]

I have a large deck on the front of my house,The window to my kitchen is low and large.One of the neighbors son yelled in the window to my son.I let his parents know and it was stopped.They were not rude at all.I am sorry that you have such a disrespectful neighbor.You did become friends with him,but at the time of the incident,you said he was disrespectful.
I have had neighbors walk across my lawn,I have walked across their lawn.We know that there is no malicious intent.When my neighbors have had get togethers and no room in their driveway,people can park in my driveway.We all have an understanding.Communication and respect go a long way.Our neighborhood is small and closeknit.All due to the communication and respect factor.

It got that way after awhile where we were. I actually lived there 17 years. I think my southern boy neighbor was actually a little uncomfortable with the fast talking, fast walking Jersey girl who moved in nextdoor. As a child in NJ, we never ever walked across someone's yard. I mean NEVER.
I can't tell you how much I liked that man after time went on. I could hear him teaching hisself how to play the piano through the windows. I would lay on my bed and listen for hours. He got very good. We spent our summers talking over that fence because he was off and I was home, anon working wife. I haven't seen him for years, but what a great guy he turned out to be after we grew up a little.

 

[dark_shadows]

Call me naive, but how was Matt’s death NOT murder? Or at least manslaughter? When I was in law school, we were taught that death is only an acceptable defense when you were protecting a PERSON, not property. In fact, we read a case about a man who put a shotgun booby trap in his garage which shot a burglar in the knee – he went to jail. I don’t understand why Matt’s killer wasn’t charged with SOMETHING. And if you don’t want people on your property, put a LARGE chain on across the road – not a thin wire that kills people. How can you get so mad at people using a road that doesn’t even bother you that when someone dies you don’t care? Since when has property become more important than life?

Hello Bykerladi,
I am from Jersey,so a big hello to you.I moved to Vermont over a decade ago.

I want you to know how much I appreciate your post.Next week I am meeting with my friend for lunch and I am going to show her your post.She will be happy knowing that her son has support.It is very hard for her and her family.
All were crushed when Matthew's Law was not passed.
The effing person that murdered Matt is walking around enjoying life,even after permission was allowed years before to go on the property.(Not even close to a home)
Once again Bykerladi,I have a great respect for you and your words.Thank-you.

 

[2beautifulboys]

This story is so sad. I am the mom to two little boys, but each day after school when the school bus arrives, I see my neighbors older boys walk across my yard to get to their house. Do I shout obscenties at them? NO, DO I threaten them? NO, I just watch them and think to myself, someday my two little boys will be big like that and would I want someone to do that to my kids? Hell NO! It's just grass people, it grows, you mow it, it grows you mow it again. There are so many people in this world who have their values and morals all mixed up. This man thought his grass was worth more than this boys life.

I agree that if the boy was intentionally harassing the man, then the parents should have stepped in, but IT"S JUST GRASS people! Why wasn't the old man happy that he got to see this young boy each day and watch him grow?...I mean really, losing your mind and becoming a serious crab because a child wants to walk across your yard to get to their house? PLEASE..

If you want to be come crabby and mean about something, how about becoming crabby and mean to the terrorist who killed 3,000 people on 911.

It was just a boy walking over dumb old GRASS...

 

[NewMom2003]

This is unbelievable. IMO this man killed this young boy in cold blood. Yes, parents should teach their children to respect other's property and he shouldn't have been on the man's lawn, but to murder this child is WRONG!!

I haven't read all the articles yet, but it sounds like this man had his shotgun ready and loaded waiting for an opportunity like this. Could be premeditated murder.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

This story is so sad. I am the mom to two little boys, but each day after school when the school bus arrives, I see my neighbors older boys walk across my yard to get to their house. Do I shout obscenties at them? NO, DO I threaten them? NO, I just watch them and think to myself, someday my two little boys will be big like that and would I want someone to do that to my kids? Hell NO! It's just grass people, it grows, you mow it, it grows you mow it again. There are so many people in this world who have their values and morals all mixed up. This man thought his grass was worth more than this boys life.

I agree that if the boy was intentionally harassing the man, then the parents should have stepped in, but IT"S JUST GRASS people! Why wasn't the old man happy that he got to see this young boy each day and watch him grow?...I mean really, losing your mind and becoming a serious crab because a child wants to walk across your yard to get to their house? PLEASE..

If you want to be come crabby and mean about something, how about becoming crabby and mean to the terrorist who killed 3,000 people on 911.

It was just a boy walking over dumb old GRASS...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Yakwoman]

I don't agree that this case is "just about grass." It's about harassment and intimidation - apparently five years worth! If you have never been in a situation where you've been harrassed, then you cannot comprehend the mental anguish. Years ago, I lived next door to some people who were pure scum and enjoyed tormenting all their neighbors. I was afraid to let my child play outside. I have been in the elderly man's shoes and can fully understand how he could "snap."

Now, that does not excuse the fact that he killed a young man and he should definitely be held accountable for that - no excuses. However, the kid knew he was being a jerk and his parents apparently encouraged it. I'm not bashing/blaming the victim here and in no way do I think the shooting was deserved or justified, but I do think the victim bears some responsibility. You reap what you sow.

This is just my opinion - you can disagree with me, but don't bash me. I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are.

Yakwoman

 

[Jeana (DP)]

He hadn't called the police since 2003. If he had such a problem with this family, he should have tried to work it out the normal way.

 

[2beautifulboys]

I'm not bashing you Yakwoman, and if the kid and his parents were harrassing the man then I agree you reap what you sow, not that the kid should have been killed, but if this whole thing started because a 10 year old boy(if it's been going on for 5 years and he was killed now that he was 15) walked across his yard to get to his own house, why did the man pitch such a fit about it. It was a 10 year old boy for pete's sake, the man was worried about his grass, the kid was worried about getting home safely. From what we can tell, the man was picky about his yard, believe me my husband likes his yard too, but he would never dream of yelling at a 10 year old for walking across it. So maybe 5 years ago he began yelling at this child to not walk across his yard, why does he need to do that....he was just 10, as long as he wasn't vandalizing, what's the harm in it. Morals and Values are all mixed up and this is the result. If the parents were losers and contributed to harrassing this man, then that's a different story. It was still just dumb old grass to me, however it was allowed to accumulate into something else.

I can respect your differing opinion.