OH - Larry Mugrage, 15, fatally shot, Batavia, 19 March 2006

[Wrinkles]

CP,

You wrote:
"The bottum line is you don't kill people over grass."

This wasn't about grass, I think I made that point. Is it okay for your kids to disrespect the property of others? Just asking...

Details, you wrote:
>>I can't see it being about boundaries - your front yard isn't that much yours<<

Do you own a front yard? Just asking.

If my son comes and disrespects the boundaries of your little girls clothing, is that okay? If he rapes and kills her (God forbid), is this okay?

To some...what happened to this old man was a killing of him... I somewhat see that.

Wrinkles

 

[bbmcrae]

I do not think this situation is about disrespect and boundaries. This situation is about how one man decided his grass was worth killing over.

Let's not lose sight of what has happend. He murdered a kid in cold blood over what ultimately is NONSENSE. Grass. A yard. It's nonsense when compared to a human life. Buy a fence. Is that too much to ask? The world is full of small compromises. We shouldn't have to lock our doors at night, but we do and we live with that.

Is the argument being made here that this murder was somehow justified? That anyone whose feels that they've had enough can go out and kill another person because they feel they are justified?

Did shooting the kid teach him a lesson? Yes, that this guy is a vindictive, angry loon. How can anyone justify his actions at all? If you do, then doesn't anyone have the right to take my life, your life, for their petty peeves?

 

[concernedperson]

I do not think this situation is about disrespect and boundaries. This situation is about how one man decided his grass was worth killing over.

Let's not lose sight of what has happend. He murdered a kid in cold blood over what ultimately is NONSENSE. Grass. A yard. It's nonsense when compared to a human life. Buy a fence. Is that too much to ask? The world is full of small compromises. We shouldn't have to lock our doors at night, but we do and we live with that.

Is the argument being made here that this murder was somehow justified? That anyone whose feels that they've had enough can go out and kill another person because they feel they are justified?

Did shooting the kid teach him a lesson? Yes, that this guy is a vindictive, angry loon. How can anyone justify his actions at all? If you do, then doesn't anyone have the right to take my life, your life, for their petty peeves?

Perfectly said.

 

[proadvocate]

Not knowing all of the facts...

It seems that this wasn't about "grass." It seems that this was about a disrespect for boundaries and the value of honoring another person and that which is theirs. It also appears that it was about maliciousness and a desire to overpower another person. In effect, it appears that someone's foolish willfulness chose to start a war. Lives can be lost when war is chosen.

It is sad that it appears that a young man purposefully chose to attempt to overpower an older man for a very foolish reason (extremely foolish and unwise in my opinion.) This wasn't about a 3 or 4 year old accidentally wondering onto the neighbors lawn, although children can be taught to ask for permissions at such an age and prior to trespassing to retrieve that which is theirs. Would that every parent taught their child to respect that which is another's!

It will be interesting to learn the facts of this case. Assuming that this wasn't a one time trespassing mistake that undid the man who killed the boy, that it was a repetitive disrespectful act on the part of the boy... It will be interesting to learn if this old man sought the assistance of the parents of this boy to stop the war AND learn their response, if he did. It will be interesting to learn if the old man sought the counsel of a lawyer to find out that which he would have to do IF the parents did not respond to his pleas for assistance in stopping trespassing. There is little less appealing than to have to EARN and pay 10's of thousands to protect that which seems to be an understood and that which, in my opinion, the law should protect, i.e. ownership of person/property of EVERYONE per ownership laws.

I don't want the body or personal space of my children or my grandchildren (or my neighbors or friends or strangers) and I invaded, AND I have worked to teach my children that there is a price that can and maybe will be paid by not respecting the body and personal space of others. Excuses for not honoring others and that which is theirs are not acceptable, accountability is taught.

Choices guide that which occurs in our lives... There are good and respectful choices. There are bad and dishonoring choices. It is extremely sad when bad choices lead to that which ends in death.

I know that there are rebellious children, I had two, and one of mine was. I knew that the rebellion of one of my children could lead to their death. I did not want their foolish choices to lead to the hurt or death of them or others.

Is my son's liberty more important than your mother or father's liberty, than your little girls protection of her body? NO AND NO!

This situation is the pathetic result, it seems, of people not respecting others.

Wrinkles

Each and every 1 of us here in some way shape or form pay taxes each yr.A certain percentage of these taxes goes towards the funding of community law enforcement.I fail to see how anyone can say it is ok to murder a grown man,let alone a teenager.If per chance this teen had been 1 of your kids....would you be so supportive of the mans right to take the law into his own hand?Think about it for a second.I have been around many kids in my life,unfortunately I have never yet met 1 that obeyed every little rule mom and dad gave them.Lets say a car was coming and there was no sidewalk,would it be appropriate to shoot your kid for stepping into the yard to avoid being ran over?He did afterall violate the boundary.Where exactly does the boundary between law and wrecklessness lie?Can we seriously give everyone with a yard permission to shoot those who walk thru it?I would hope that most people would agree with me that although the kid was wrong to trespass,that is hardly a justifiable reason to shoot him.I would hope that the vast majority of people would know LE is only a phone call away to deal with such problems in a more lawful manner.Today we support old men who eliminate vile and nasty trespassers.....Who do we support tommorow?Perhaps if a female child strays thru a pedophiles yard we should support him when he raped and tortured her?Maybe we should shoot the garbage man for walking on our lawn on trash day?Where are the acceptable limits here.....Based uponn the post here I really don't see any.

Simple fact,this took the law into his own hands and brutally murdered a young person.For said actions there are no excuses,sadly his age will allow him to die peacefully in his cell someday,rather than allow him to walk those last few steps to the gurney of no return.Either way Hell has room for his slimey arse.

 

[christine2448]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I do not think this situation is about disrespect and boundaries. This situation is about how one man decided his grass was worth killing over.

Let's not lose sight of what has happend. He murdered a kid in cold blood over what ultimately is NONSENSE. Grass. A yard. It's nonsense when compared to a human life. Buy a fence. Is that too much to ask? The world is full of small compromises. We shouldn't have to lock our doors at night, but we do and we live with that.

Is the argument being made here that this murder was somehow justified? That anyone whose feels that they've had enough can go out and kill another person because they feel they are justified?

Did shooting the kid teach him a lesson? Yes, that this guy is a vindictive, angry loon. How can anyone justify his actions at all? If you do, then doesn't anyone have the right to take my life, your life, for their petty peeves?

 

[Wrinkles]

Proadvocate...

You wrote:
"Simple fact,this took the law into his own hands and brutally murdered a young person."

There is no fact. Look up the definition of . This man was evidently a kind man who was waving to children who passed on the street. Let us see if this man was ever known to do any criminal behavior.

Proadvocate, do you own property?
Details, do you own property?
Concerned person do you own property?

Have any of you owned property, I am just curious.

I did not say that the death of this "young man" who chose to wage war on an older man was right, I questioned many things.

Even so...I am sitting here with my neighbor who has two sons who are 15 and 17, who have honored my husband and I over 12 years. My neighbor would never allow her sons to come on our property or disrespect us in any way. On the contrary, my neighbor thinks this 15 year old was errant from day one. The two of us agree that his parents didn't have the grace to stop this boy from going on an old man's property with impunity.

My neighbor has called upon her little boys to wait upon my husband and myself since my husband became weakened by a heart problem 7 years ago. They have taken out our trash every week for 7 years with no offer of reward, but that they could care for elders and neighbors - as led by their honorable parents. We have honored these children...paying them, but we were not expected to do so EVER - we did it out of respect of those who honored us.

These 2 boys who are now 15 and 17 continue to honor us...as they have always done as led by their parents.

What my neighbor thinks happened, and she is right here in my midst hollering for me to write this, is that this boy who was killed, was out of control from day one and that his parents had lost control of him. So, he and his buddies, walked over on this man's lawn because "they could." Not only that, but I will add that it appears this boy led them in this injustice and disrespect.

Not a reason to kill...but not a reason to misunderstand what we all know. Train your child to respect and honor their neighbors and others, or their choice will threaten their lives.

Wrinkles

 

[Wrinkles]

I need to add...

My neighbor and I are standing here agreeing that we would be humiliated and embarassed if our boys were to be repeatedly chastised for dishonoring our neighbors. We would be humiliated and dishononed beyond measure, if our child were to be killed for something that they had repeatedly been told was wrong.

We agree that this man was wrong and errant for killing this boy, but wisdom speaks about how to keep our children safe. These parents are chargeable...or at least, worthy of scrutiny for their part in not teaching this boy to behave such that wisdom would protect his life. He dishonored...and he pulled others into his dishonoring of this man.

Gang members are made for the type of thinking that this boy pulled his friends into... They gang banged this 66 year old man.

Full stop.

 

[LinasK]

He hadn't called the police since 2003. If he had such a problem with this family, he should have tried to work it out the normal way.

I have to agree, no matter how harrased or intimated you feel by jerk neighbors, you don't just cold-bloodedly kill them, you call the police!!! :doh: Talk about the ultimate act of passive-aggressiveness!!!:behindbar

 

[LinasK]

CP,

You wrote:
"The bottum line is you don't kill people over grass."

This wasn't about grass, I think I made that point. Is it okay for your kids to disrespect the property of others? Just asking...

If my son comes and disrespects the boundaries of your little girls clothing, is that okay? If he rapes and kills her (God forbid), is this okay?

Sorry, this is NOT a valid comparison, grass/property and the personal boundaries of a human body, and I know that CP fully agrees with me on this!

 

[BeeBee]

I totally agree that what this man did was wrong. But, in a way I can understand the way he felt. Especially when you get older and there is not a lot to do. He worked and made his lawn look nice. THAT was probably what he did to occupy his days. Women might plant beautiful flowers and take care of them.

We have groups of boys in my neighborhood that love to find things to do to other people. One Halloween a few years ago I bought my grandson a HUGE pumpkin. It was big enough, once cleaned out, that a baby could sit in it. We carved the face and it looked great. My husband carried it to the porch.My grandson put the candle in it. The next morning when we got up to get my grandson ready for school hewent to the porch to look at the pumpkin. It was in the middle of the road smashed all to hell. My grandson almost cried and had I been up to see it happen and who did it, God help them. That's how mad I was. Over a PUMPKIN. I think I could have killed. I was that mad.

People do things. They get older and want things to look nice and so they plant beautiful flowers or want a great looking lawn. Then the neighborhood boys decide to stomp all over your beautiful flowers while you sleep or walk across a lawn that they KNOW someone is taking great pains with to look good. Yep. Killing the kid was wrong. But, at the same time, I know how he probably felt. He isn't a loony. Or a psycho. He is most likely just a man that finally snapped. I feel bad for the boy. I really do. And his family. But I can also see a cocky boy, walking across this guys lawn (which we all know he didn't have to do) maybe with a you attitude. And, the guy had had enough and he snapped.

I don't live in Stepford. I live in a neighborhood where you have to really think about even buying a lawn ornament.

 

[mysteriew]

Just to add to the discussion. Martin claimed the boy and his parents had been harrassing him for about 5 years. But the last time he called to make a complaint was in 2003. There was a dispute earlier in the day, where Martin yelled at the kid for walking in his yard. Then just before the shooting, the kid walked in the yard again, and had shouted an expletive at Martin. Martin then shot at him and missed. He walked closer and shot the kid in the back, the bullet exited through his chest.
Sorry, I have had disputes with neighbors over the years. And yes, I own property! Once, a neighbor yelled at my kids for walking along the road in front of his property with their dog on a leash. My kids weren't normally allowed to play in his yard, with his kids because of problems. My kids weren't allowed in his yard at all. But I did allow them to walk along the easement along the road when they were walking their dog. He threatened to the kids to shoot the dog. He was told. If he shot at my kids or shot at the dog when it was with my kids- I wouldn't call 911! And that I also had a gun. He got the message. I made sure I was visable after that when my kids went for walks. No more problems and he moved shortly after that (marital problems).
A dispute with a neighbor is not a reason to shoot a kid. Yes, the kid should have shown more respect. A lot of kids should. Yes, the parents should have made sure the kid knew not to be over in the guys yard. But even if they did, kids don't always mind.
That is not a reason for shooting.
One thing I am curious about. He didn't put us a fence. Did this guy even bother to post no trespassing signs on his yard? If it was bothering him that much, if they were destroying property as he claimed- why wasn't he calling police?
Additional info:
http://www.wcpo.com/news/2006/local/03/22/martin.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/21/national/main1425127.shtml

 

[LinasK]

Just to add to the discussion. Martin claimed the boy and his parents had been harrassing him for about 5 years. But the last time he called to make a complaint was in 2003. There was a dispute earlier in the day, where Martin yelled at the kid for walking in his yard. Then just before the shooting, the kid walked in the yard again, and had shouted an expletive at Martin. Martin then shot at him and missed. He walked closer and shot the kid in the back, the bullet exited through his chest.
Sorry, I have have disputes with neighbors over the years. And yes, I own property! Once, a neighbor yelled at my kids for walking along the road in front of his property with their dog on a leash. My kids weren't normally allowed to play in his yard, with his kids because of problems. But I did allow them to walk along the easement along the road when they were walking their dog. He threatened to the kids to shoot the dog. He was told. If he shot at my kids or shot at the dog when it was with my kids- I wouldn't call 911! And that I also had a gun. He got the message. I made sure I was visable after that when my kids went for walks. No more problems and he moved shortly after that (marital problems).
A dispute with a neighbor is not a reason to shoot a kid. Yes, the kid should have shown more respect. A lot of kids should. Yes, the parents should have made sure the kid knew not to be over in the guys yard. But even if they did, kids don't always mind.
That is not a reason for shooting.
One thing I am curious about. He didn't put us a fence. Did this guy even bother to post no trespassing signs on his yard? If it was bothering him that much, if they were destroying property as he claimed- why wasn't he calling police?
Additional info:
http://www.wcpo.com/news/2006/local/03/22/martin.html

All valid points Mysteriew!:clap:

 

[redeskimo]

Why did'nt he just talk to the kid and his parents .

 

[bbmcrae]

So...if the kid was acting, as a poster is suggesting, the way those scary gang kids act, then how was this fine, upstanding man acting when he shot the kid dead for stepping on his lawn? And, isn't that more like how gangbangers act? Shooting someone for "disrespect"?

How can anyone find an excuse for his actions? And, if the answer starts with "Well, this disrepectful kid...", then that's what they are doing.

And, no, I do not own property. But I doubt any reasonable person who does would see it as an loophole to commit murder.

The whole "respect" debate clouds the central issue: this man shot a kid dead in cold blood because he believed he was justified in doing so, because it suited him personally. If you can find a even a vague, backdoor way to validate his actions, then you are saying anyone could justifiably take anyone else's life, yours and mine included, over their personal, petty grievances.

It's not up to him, or someone who owns property and can sympathize with his rage, to take another's life. He committed the worst crime possible. He probably believes he had his reasons. But, then, so do lots of killers. Does that make it acceptable?

I frankly don't get the sermonizing over respect and honoring thy neighbor in light of what this guy did. All that stuff is dwarfed by his cruel, twisted act. What respect or honor has he shown? Is the lesson now, "honor thy neighbor or he'll shoot you"?

This guy-Martin-I had to look it up-has indeed proven what kind of civilized man he is. He killed a unarmed, defenseless kid. He will most likely go to jail for the rest of his life (unless he ends up with a jury of rabid, homicidal landowners). He has destroyed a family. Wow, look at the wonderful lesson on respect he taught us all.

I know this is a civil debate, but I must say it's rather appalling to have to argue this point.

Cheers.

 

[mysteriew]

If my adult neighbor came over and took a hammer to my car, I am going to be seriously p*ssed off. I would probably do some screaming. I would call 911, and most likely I would be demanding that they hang him (I mean seriously PO'd). But I wouldn't shoot him, unless he hurt one of my kids.
There has to be some limits.
Where do you draw the line? Shoot someone who bumps into you in a restaurant? Shoot 'em because of a traffic accident? Shoot somebody because they cut in front of you while you were driving? Maybe because the waitress was too slow with your order?
There are annoyance's. And there are things that seriously p*ss you off. And there are criminal things. But they still aren't reason for shooting someone.

 

[LinasK]

I own property. I've had my house for 10 years next month. I have a corner lot, not yet fenced. The mailman walks across my front yard daily, so do others. I don't like it, but I don't have a shotgun ready...

 

[dark_shadows]

Sorry, this is NOT a valid comparison, grass/property and the personal boundaries of a human body, and I know that CP fully agrees with me on this!

Hi LinasK,
Thank-you :blowkiss: for the post,CP would apperciate what you posted.

 

[docwho3]

Nothing excuses what the man did. He committed a murder and I think he knows it.

Having said that, I have to say that the young man evidently had a longstanding feud going with this man (if I remember the news report correctly) and if so then he had reason to think this man might be unbalanced. I hope other young readers and their families will take time to discuss how such a feud can lead to tragedy and should be avoided. Teasing the mean bulldog or the crazy neighbor is risky and bad things can really happen to even someone as cool as you. (In this case "you" means the young reader who might need such info.)

 

[christine2448]

So...if the kid was acting, as a poster is suggesting, the way those scary gang kids act, then how was this fine, upstanding man acting when he shot the kid dead for stepping on his lawn? And, isn't that more like how gangbangers act? Shooting someone for "disrespect"?

How can anyone find an excuse for his actions? And, if the answer starts with "Well, this disrepectful kid...", then that's what they are doing.

And, no, I do not own property. But I doubt any reasonable person who does would see it as an loophole to commit murder.

The whole "respect" debate clouds the central issue: this man shot a kid dead in cold blood because he believed he was justified in doing so, because it suited him personally. If you can find a even a vague, backdoor way to validate his actions, then you are saying anyone could justifiably take anyone else's life, yours and mine included, over their personal, petty grievances.

It's not up to him, or someone who owns property and can sympathize with his rage, to take another's life. He committed the worst crime possible. He probably believes he had his reasons. But, then, so do lots of killers. Does that make it acceptable?

I frankly don't get the sermonizing over respect and honoring thy neighbor in light of what this guy did. All that stuff is dwarfed by his cruel, twisted act. What respect or honor has he shown? Is the lesson now, "honor thy neighbor or he'll shoot you"?

This guy-Martin-I had to look it up-has indeed proven what kind of civilized man he is. He killed a unarmed, defenseless kid. He will most likely go to jail for the rest of his life (unless he ends up with a jury of rabid, homicidal landowners). He has destroyed a family. Wow, look at the wonderful lesson on respect he taught us all.

I know this is a civil debate, but I must say it's rather appalling to have to argue this point.

Cheers.

Amen and Amen!

 

[nanandjim]

...The mailman walks across my front yard daily, so do others. I don't like it, but I don't have a shotgun ready...

Hate to say it, but that's what I first envisioned about this kid, that he was a disrespectful punk. Why did he need to walk on this guy's lawn? I can understand it if it were the only way to get to his home. Somehow, I doubt that was the case.

It ticks me off when the parents of the kids at Halloween allow the kids to take a shortcut across my lawn instead of walking down the driveway. However, I think that I also did that as a kid (but my parents weren't with me).


That being said, the man should have just let it go. Eventually, the kid would have grown up and moved away. Now, two lives are ruined; and the man won't have any control at all over his lawn. I wonder if he now thinks that it was worth it.

ETA: I believe that this was an impulsive act. What separates humans from animals is that we are able to control our impulses. How many times have you wanted to ram a car that has just pulled out in front of you, causing you to put on your brakes? If we all acted on our impulses, this world would be even scarier than it already is!