OH - Ma’Khia Bryant, 16, fatally shot multiple times by Columbus police officer, 20 April 2021

[Deleted member 39678]

I don’t see her as superhuman and impervious to the effects of a taser. She was out of control as anyone trying to stab someone is. But tasers do work.

There are policies against their use though in the case of possible imminent death. So that I don’t argue with.

Tasers are way to unreliable to risk an innocent persons life on. JMO

Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

Though the electrical weapons are widely used, police in major cities rate them as less effective, APM Reports found in its yearlong investigation. In more than 250 cases over three years, a Taser failed to subdue someone who was then shot and killed by police.

Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

 

[gitana1]

Tasers are way to unreliable to risk an innocent persons life on. JMO

Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed


Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

Thanks for that, Ranch.

 

[yahaint]

A taser would’ve done it. It does it for almost anyone.

Statistics say otherwise.
Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

Taser Effectiveness
Axon CEO Rick Smith claimed in 2015 that Tasers were “80 to 95% effective in the field.” Data from some of the biggest departments in the country show a much lower range than that. It’s important to note that every police department has its own way of tracking and defining effectiveness, and for this reason, their data are not directly comparable. Also, the time period of the data varies among departments.

POLICE DEPARTMENT EFFECTIVENESS RATE
Atlanta 67.8%
Charlotte-Mecklenburg 69.7%
Columbus 77.3%
Dallas 68.0%
Denver 73.6%
El Paso 79.5%
Fort Worth 62.4%
Houston 73.7%
Indianapolis 54.7%
Los Angeles 57.1%
New York 77.4%
Seattle 60.6%

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Statistics say otherwise.
Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

Taser Effectiveness
Axon CEO Rick Smith claimed in 2015 that Tasers were “80 to 95% effective in the field.” Data from some of the biggest departments in the country show a much lower range than that. It’s important to note that every police department has its own way of tracking and defining effectiveness, and for this reason, their data are not directly comparable. Also, the time period of the data varies among departments.

POLICE DEPARTMENT

EFFECTIVENESS RATE
Atlanta 67.8%
Charlotte-Mecklenburg 69.7%
Columbus 77.3%
Dallas 68.0%
Denver 73.6%
El Paso 79.5%
Fort Worth 62.4%
Houston 73.7%
Indianapolis 54.7%
Los Angeles 57.1%
New York 77.4%
Seattle 60.6%

These stats do not surprise me at all. I've been viewing police shootings on YouTube and I was amazed at how many times police used a taser first and it wasn't effective. Sometimes multiple taser deployments from more than one officer have failed.

In some case it's appropriate to try a taser first. This case isn't one of them. JMO

 

[gitana1]

Statistics say otherwise.
Despite Widespread Use, Police Rate Tasers As Less Effective Than Believed

Taser Effectiveness
Axon CEO Rick Smith claimed in 2015 that Tasers were “80 to 95% effective in the field.” Data from some of the biggest departments in the country show a much lower range than that. It’s important to note that every police department has its own way of tracking and defining effectiveness, and for this reason, their data are not directly comparable. Also, the time period of the data varies among departments.

POLICE DEPARTMENT EFFECTIVENESS RATE
Atlanta 67.8%
Charlotte-Mecklenburg 69.7%
Columbus 77.3%
Dallas 68.0%
Denver 73.6%
El Paso 79.5%
Fort Worth 62.4%
Houston 73.7%
Indianapolis 54.7%
Los Angeles 57.1%
New York 77.4%
Seattle 60.6%

Thank you. Given that it makes sense why lethal force is a policy when someone is using a deadly weapon on another.

 

[yahaint]

These stats do not surprise me at all. I've been viewing police shootings on YouTube and I was amazed at how many times police used a taser first and it wasn't effective. Sometimes multiple taser deployments from more than one officer have failed.

Just came across this article..wonder if this "reduced power taser" is the a major factor in taser usage ineffectiveness?

Why Does LAPD Keep Buying Tasers That Don't Work Like They Should?

 

[BeckyF]

That links to a variety of videos. Could you summarize what they are saying?

I will say that in other western nations, cops seem to be able to stop violent and dangerous perps with a lot less force than we do here. That being said, I think we have an overall more violent culture in general.

Sorry about that.
4/21/21 Bodycam Shows Police Fatally Shoot Teen Girl - Court TV

David Katz Former Special Agent DEA answers the question of why a taser was not used in this incident. He states that in his experience using a taser would not have been sufficient to address the threat to the girl in pink and she could have lost her life. He states he has seen tasers fail in these situations.

I do agree we have an overall violent culture.

 

[scriabina]

I am genuinely interested in seeing a link that provides the stats that the US law enforcement agencies have the highest number of deaths to civilians.

Here's the link. Also see screenshots. And another link that appears to use same data as Wikipedia but with some more clear bar graphs etc.

In the US, the civilian death rate by LE is~35 deaths per 10 million, greater than countries like Angola, Sudan, Mexico, Rwanda, et al, and about the same as Iran. By contrast, Canada's rate is 9.7, and most countries in Europe are under 2 (UK's is just 0.5). Some countries (Iceland, Denmark, Switzerland) are at an impressive 0!

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Columbus shooting: Others involved in confrontation that led to teen's death were all adults

The other individuals involved in the confrontation that ended in the fatal officer-involved shooting of 16-year-old Ma'Khia Bryant were all adults, a spokesperson for Columbus Police Department told Fox News Thursday.

Surveillance video of the altercation shows four people standing in front of that home. As Officer Nicholas Reardon is pulling up to the house, Bryant and two other people appear to come out of the front door.

Seconds later, Bryant lunges with an apparent knife at one woman, 20, who had been standing in the driveway of the home, forcing her to the ground. A man, 43, started kicking the woman as she tried to get up.

Bryant then turned to another woman, 22, with the knife, at which point officer Reardon discharged four shots from his firearm, fatally striking Bryant.

 

[branmuffin]

-She had to be stopped
-Was his use of force, 4 shots, FOUR , justified if one could have stopped her, possibly without killing her?
-Had he any other methods at his disposal that were less lethal and equally effective at stopping her?
-Did this officer's special training provide him with additional skills that he could have used instead?
These are my questions about the shooting.

What about Ma'khia?
-What happened in her life that made her want to stab people?
-Had she ever displayed violence before and if so what was the outcome?
-Had any interventions taken place to save her , from herself and others.
-Was she a victim of bullying, because of her weight , circumstances or personality?

What happened on the day of the shooting? Where was she? Who was taking care of her- who was the responsible adult in her life on that day?
Lastly, I cannot tell from the videos whether she was in a blind uncontrolled rage or merely trying to impress whatever members of her family or peer group that were present at the time?
Was she so out of control that she didn't recognise the significance of the police being present, even though she may have called them herself?

These are the questions I'll be pondering.


She didn't attempt to stab the girl that was down. Why not?

I think we're going to find that there was a confrontation between girls inside the foster home. It seems to me that the initial altercation occurred in the kitchen when someone grabbed a knife and threatened someone. It's been suggested that M is the one who called 911. That hasn't been verified though.

When that group on the driveway appeared there was a rush of movement toward the road with M chasing the girl who fell and was kicked by the man. When that girl fell so did M which could have just been momentum. When the girl fell she dropped her phone. I think she may have been filming at the time and M was trying to get the phone out of her hand. The phone had a powder blue case and it ended up on the sidewalk. When she rolled over to avoid M there was something beside her on the grass that M scooped up. I don't know if M dropped a knife that she already had when she toppled that girl but she picked it up and lunged at the girl in pink. I think what's going to be tragic is the untold story we are not yet privy too.

Here is a link to an Al Jazeera site that shows video from across the street. Be forewarned it is quite graphic.

New video shows additional angle in death of Ma’Khia Bryant

 

[SBops]

My question is, why are these young women in foster care and why are so many disturbed young women, housed together. That is asking for trouble, IMO.

 

[SBops]

MOO but i think with all going on and the BIG MONEY being made now, getting it on camera and being the one to call the police to 'help', i think she thought maybe she'd get hurt and get the TV TIME to make those big bucks, just as others have lately. At that age, it seems everything is about outdoing each other with the TikToks, Crowdfunding, and 'pranks'. I think this totally backfired on her. JMHO PS. there was a funding site up, hit 20k and was taken down when video released.

And I think that that is rubbish.

 

[scriabina]

My question is, why are these young women in foster care and why are so many disturbed young women, housed together. That is asking for trouble, IMO.

One of the articles linked above stated the two other individuals were 20 (woman who was knocked down) and 22 (pink woman), so they couldn't have been foster kids.

 

[Zella]

One of the articles linked above stated the two other individuals were 20 (woman who was knocked down) and 22 (pink woman), so they couldn't have been foster kids.

They were the foster parent's former foster children, according to this article. I think there's been confused reporting since they would have aged out of the system but still apparently were in contact with their former foster mother and according to this article probably still spent a fair amount of time there since the foster mother (who was not present during the shooting) mentioned that the girls all bickered a lot with each other.

Ma'Khia Bryant: An argument about housekeeping preceeded police shooting, foster parent says - CNN

 

[scriabina]

Wow, I hadn't seen that article. Thanks. It's hard to believe the knife fight was over house cleaning of all things. It makes me wonder if MB was suffering from an undiagnosed and/or incipient mental illness.

From link above:

Ma'Khia Bryant and two other young women argued over a messy house and unmade bed before a fight that ended with the fatal police shooting shooting of the Black teenager, the woman who cared for Ma'Khia in foster care said Thursday.

Angela Moore said two of her former foster children had come to her Columbus, Ohio, home Tuesday to celebrate her birthday when the young women and Ma'Khia bickered over housekeeping.
"It was over keeping the house clean," Moore said. "The older one told them to clean up the house because 'Mom doesn't like the house dirty,'" Moore recalled being told after she arrived home from work. "So that's how it all started."

...
Moore relayed for CNN the story she said she was told by one of the girls in the house at the time.
"You're not the guardian of me," Bryant replied, according to the story Moore said she was told.
"They argue all the time," Moore recalled, "but I never thought it would escalate like that."

MB saying "you're not the guardian of me" makes me think perhaps Bryant was triggered by the former foster child bossing her around. Maybe MB felt like everyone thought they could tell her what to do since she didn't have any real permanent home as a foster child, and it made her fly into a rage against the 20-yr-old when she told her to clean. All the sorrow and rage that MB had bottled up over the years suddenly exploded and she had some sort of psychotic break. Just wildly speculating obviously. I don't know. Just trying to make sense of it all.

 

[everybodhi]

Could you please explain what gun ownership has to do with this situation? Also, I am genuinely interested in seeing a link that provides the stats that the US law enforcement agencies have the highest number of deaths to civilians.

Well, you can isolate this case but if you are going to address police shootings as a whole, it’s hard to ignore gun ownership. We have the highest rate of gun ownership, so LE often shoots because they are afraid we are armed, even if it’s just a cell phone. Unlike other western countries, all the cops need guns in the US because of the high incidence of gun ownership.

Here's the link. (Snip)
In the US, the civilian death rate by LE is~35 deaths per 10 million, greater than countries like Angola, Sudan, Mexico, Rwanda, et al, and about the same as Iran. By contrast, Canada's rate is 9.7, and most countries in Europe are under 2 (UK's is just 0.5). Some countries (Iceland, Denmark, Switzerland) are at an impressive 0!

Thanks for posting this.

 

[Cappuccino]

Well, you can isolate this case but if you are going to address police shootings as a whole, it’s hard to ignore gun ownership. We have the highest rate of gun ownership, so LE often shoots because they are afraid we are armed, even if it’s just a cell phone. Unlike other western countries, all the cops need guns in the US because of the high incidence of gun ownership.

Thanks for posting this.

And yet Switzerland has a higher rate of gun ownership than Angola or Mexico. There's clearly other factors involved apart from rates of gun ownership.

ETA - sorry, forgot the link...

Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

 

[everybodhi]

And yet Switzerland has a higher rate of gun ownership than Angola or Mexico. There's clearly other factors involved apart from rates of gun ownership.

ETA - sorry, forgot the link...

Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

Switzerland doesn’t allow anyone to have ammo in their possession, they count them out to you at the gun range, they count your shots and if you don’t use them all, they take them back.
Even Switzerland’s Army militia keeps their ammo in a central arsenal
Soldiers can keep guns at home but not ammo

 

[katydid23]

My view was that because he was a marksman he should have been able to neutralise her without killing her.
But, for that we simply must wait for the report.

My view is much different than that.

My view is that when a first responder arrives on the scene of an active violent crime, their highest priority is saving/protecting the victims and all bystanders.

The 2nd priority is to protect their own lives and the of their fellow 1st responders.

And then, they can worry about protecting the violent perps. The person wielding the knife or gun is not at the top of my priority list, in the frantic moments when needing to save the victims and other officers.

If someone is lunging at someone with a knife raised, and screaming threats as they push someone against a car---that person should assume they might die themselves. There is a consequence for violent behaviour.

It is a tragic ending and it is awful that this poor girl died the way she did. But she brought it on herself. I do not blame the officer for her tragic death. She set it in motion herself, by continuing to fight and threaten to stab others, even after she saw the police car pull up.

It almost looked like a suicide by cop situation....

 

[tayaway]

Switzerland doesn’t allow anyone to have ammo in their possession, they count them out to you at the gun range, they count your shots and if you don’t use them all, they take them back.
Even Switzerland’s Army militia keeps their ammo in a central arsenal
Soldiers can keep guns at home but not ammo

Are you referring to military and range issued ammo? According to this 2013 BBC article, "Swiss citizens - for example hunters, or those who shoot as a sport - can get a permit to buy guns and ammunition, unless they have a criminal record, or police deem them unsuitable on psychiatric or security grounds." See this wiki page for more info. ETA: Swiss people still die by gun in instances of domestic abuse and suicide.

Can we really compare Switzerland to the US? American gun culture is a unique beast all to its own. Here's a 2019 Business Insider article that compares the two countries' approaches to guns.

Here's a WaPo 2020 article comparing American policing to other countries. The question that investigators of MB's case are working to answer is whether MB needed to die. It appears that under American law, 'reasonable belief' is required, while in other countries, like those in the European Union, the death must be 'absolutely necessary.'

The same 2013 BBC article mentioned above, covers multiple aspects of the Swiss/Am gun culture comparison and includes one Swiss's view on the NRA's 'but Switzerland' whataboutism:

"I'm always amazed how the National Rifle Association in America points to Switzerland - they make it sound as if it was part of southern Texas!" he says.

"We have guns at home, but they are kept for peaceful purposes. There is no point taking the gun out of your home in Switzerland because it is illegal to carry a gun in the street. To shoot someone who just looks at you in a funny way - this is not Swiss culture!"

Did MB need to die? Does America's approach to policing require changes or is it fine the way it is - maybe that is the real question?