OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #50

[Dudly]

Yes there is more than one shooter. 4 according to the indictments. Gary was shot with larger caliber bullets so that is more evidence there was more than one shooter.

This has been discussed many times but you bring up a good point that might explain why there were a differing number of shots.

The ones who were shot the most --- CR JR (4), DR (5), HG (5) and CR SR (9) --- could have all been shot by the same gunman. Gunman "A" shoots Dana while gunman "B" or "C" or "D" shoots HR only twice. Gunman "A" finds CR JR and shoots him.

"A" shoots HG while "B" or "C" or "D" shoots FR only 3 times.

"B" or "C" or "D" shoots KR only 1 time.

The number of shots could have been revenge/level of hate, or simply different shooters where you have some shooters more sure of themselves, especially with KR, and then you have the shooter who is not so sure of what he's doing and he shoots way too many times.

I could tell---from the day we learned about the number of shots---that these murders were not "professional" in any way. "Professional" drug hit men are not that sloppy. One or 2 shots only. Especially with CR SR, his was a very unorganized crime scene reeking of local amateurs taking revenge. I was not surprised when they were arrested. I am surprised that they chose to do this, if indeed they did....2 Cents.....

BBM
Not saying you are incorrect, but, keep in mind that one shooter could be carrying more than one gun. With four murder scenes there could be one shooter and more than four guns used. A different preloaded gun could be ready for each house. That could even have been part of the strategy of confusing LE and covering their tracks...

 

[Betty P]

Dark yes!
GW4 likes tactical websites according to his Facebook so I am guessing they used tactical gear such as BPVs and lasers and lights attached to their guns to overcome the darkness...2 Cents....

https://www.opticsplanet.com/gun-mount-flashlights.htm

Laser Sights on Concealed Carry Guns | Selecting a Handgun Laser | PDN

Yes, that's been one of my big questions I want answered when evidence is revealed during the trial - how did they accurately kill the victims in dark rooms? Back in the early days, we speculated they used night vision goggles or somesuch. The number of shots, the difficulty, the mess and moving of bodies at CR1s, all indicate to me that at least all 3 W men were involved in the shooting and AW was probably helping at the crime scene, too. There was a LOT of work to be done at each crime scene. The breaking and entering, locating of victims and killing them before they awakened all took time. Multiple shooters were needed to cover each other in case someone awoke and tried to get away or grabbed a cell phone to call for help.

At the same time, they needed enough light to make sure they didn't shoot each other. I wonder if any of the W's were injured that night?

 

[Cool Cats]

BBM
Not saying you are incorrect, but, keep in mind that one shooter could be carrying more than one gun. With four murder scenes there could be one shooter and more than four guns used. A different preloaded gun could be ready for each house. That could even have been part of the strategy of confusing LE and covering their tracks...

Yes. One person using a different gun for each house. But now we know that 4 people have been charged with carrying the guns and charged with the murders so I assume that there were 2 or 3 shooters with 1 or 2 lookouts.
Then they all worked on dismantling the cameras and stealing phones, moving bodies and tampering with the crime scenes to give off a certain impression.
KR's camper was small so I only picture one shooter inside shooting and throwing dollar bills, with 2 or 3 outside dismantling all his security cameras.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes, that's been one of my big questions I want answered when evidence is revealed during the trial - how did they accurately kill the victims in dark rooms? Back in the early days, we speculated they used night vision goggles or somesuch. The number of shots, the difficulty, the mess and moving of bodies at CR1s, all indicate to me that at least all 3 W men were involved in the shooting and AW was probably helping at the crime scene, too. There was a LOT of work to be done at each crime scene. The breaking and entering, locating of victims and killing them before they awakened all took time. Multiple shooters were needed to cover each other in case someone awoke and tried to get away or grabbed a cell phone to call for help.

At the same time, they needed enough light to make sure they didn't shoot each other. I wonder if any of the W's were injured that night?

Yes. I used to picture them carrying flashlights but that seems awkward when you can put lights on your guns which wouldn't be a big deal to do for people who assemble silencers and brass catchers.

Actually, you make a good point in that the whole thing was a 4 person job. I think 3--at most--did the shooting because it would actually get confusing having 4 people shooting, and as you say, trying not to shoot each other!

I was looking at Angie as being the babysitter when in actuality she could have been there to make sure the crime scenes were left to her satisfaction. I imagine her micromanaging her family and why not the crime scenes also?

I'm over my old fashioned point of view that if you have 3 males and 1 female and there are 3 shooters, it would have to be the males automatically. Angie is the one mentioned as having bad blood with CG and bad blood with HR. For all we know she started the whole thing through manipulation.

But if Angela was there I picture it the way you do.....

"3 W men were involved in the shooting and AW was probably helping at the crime scene, too."

 

[FrankieT]

Dark yes!
GW4 likes tactical websites according to his Facebook so I am guessing they used tactical gear such as BPVs and lasers and lights attached to their guns to overcome the darkness, more practical then carrying a flashlight you might drop.
...2 Cents....

Results for lights on guns - OpticsPlanet

Laser Sights on Concealed Carry Guns | Selecting a Handgun Laser | PDN

The term, "laser focus" is common, but from the first time I heard it used toward the Wagoners I thought it possibly had a meaning they would understand. MOO

 

[Merrygirl]

Just FYI, government wants to start regulating sales of body armor.

Schumer to propose legislation restricting sale of military grade body armor

It’s already illegal in Ohio if your have been convicted of a felony. Ohio - Body Armor Law - Can I Own A Bulletproof Vest In Ohio?

 

[Antimony]

Most of the new gun laws proposed are just stricter versions of the existing laws.
Laws that have not been enforced in quite a few of these tradgedies.
What good are new, but non-enforced laws?

 

[Cool Cats]

The term, "laser focus" is common, but from the first time I heard it used toward the Wagoners I thought it possibly had a meaning they would understand. MOO

They understood all right. They got an attorney to hit back at DeWine through the media:

KENAI, Alaska — The lawyer representing the former Peebles family authorities are focused on in the Rhoden family massacre investigation said his clients have cooperated fully in the probe.

And in return, John Kearson Clark said, the Wagner family are being "harassed while the real killer or killers are still out there."

"Why? Well, it's either because the authorities are clueless, incompetent or they themselves are involved in a cover-up," said Clark, who has offices in Jackson and Chillicothe. "Take your pick."

Clark said the family has "cooperated 110 percent".......Clark said he thinks politics has entered the investigation.

“I think he wants this solved somehow, some way, or at least make it look like he’s making progress, so that doesn’t come and haunt him when he’s running for election,” Clark said.

Angela Wagner declined the Enquirer's request for an interview outside of her Alaskan home Monday, referring all questions to Clark.

Clearly, the family had hoped to leave the swirls of speculation and finger-pointing back in Ohio. And, Clark said, the Wagners have grown weary of the constant questioning by authorities.

"It's the questions you would expect over and over and over: 'Where were you? What do you know?'" the lawyer said based on his conversations with the family. "Having (Jake) look at these pictures, some of them are horrific..."

Some family members and acquaintances of the Rhoden and Wagner families have alleged that Billy Wagner and Chris Rhoden, Sr., had a confrontation several weeks before the killings and that Jake Wagner and Hanna Rhoden were involved in a bitter custody dispute over Sophia.

Clark and Angela Wagner said neither is true.

Lawyer: Mike DeWine is harassing family in Rhoden case that moved to Alaska

 

[Merrygirl]

Yes there is more than one shooter. 4 according to the indictments. Gary was shot with larger caliber bullets so that is more evidence there was more than one shooter.

This has been discussed many times but you bring up a good point that might explain why there were a differing number of shots.

The ones who were shot the most --- CR JR (4), DR (5), HG (5) and CR SR (9) --- could have all been shot by the same gunman. Gunman "A" shoots Dana while gunman "B" or "C" or "D" shoots HR only twice. Gunman "A" finds CR JR and shoots him.

"A" shoots HG while "B" or "C" or "D" shoots FR only 3 times.

"B" or "C" or "D" shoots KR only 1 time.

The number of shots could have been revenge/level of hate, or simply different shooters where you have some shooters more sure of themselves, especially with KR, and then you have the shooter who is not so sure of what he's doing and he shoots way too many times.

I could tell---from the day we learned about the number of shots---that these murders were not "professional" in any way. "Professional" drug hit men are not that sloppy. One or 2 shots only. Especially with CR SR, his was a very unorganized crime scene reeking of local amateurs taking revenge. I was not surprised when they were arrested. I am surprised that they chose to do this, if indeed they did....2 Cents.....

I have often wondered if CRsr may have been hit by 2 shooters, possibly with both having the same shells. I haven’t seen anything to lead me in that direction but it would make sense in a way. IF the rumor of a prior fight with BW was true, then it’s possible 2 shooters may have ganged up on him, which would explain CRsr making a hasty retreat to the bedroom. If there was only 1 shooter on CRsr I think he may have tried to disarm the lone shooter. I can also see the 3rd shooter intercepting GR either as he enters late or perhaps he was the one to open the door and the shooter held him back and threatened him. Like I said, this is only my speculation.

 

[Cool Cats]

I have often wondered if CRsr may have been hit by 2 shooters, possibly with both having the same shells. I haven’t seen anything to lead me in that direction but it would make sense in a way. IF the rumor of a prior fight with BW was true, then it’s possible 2 shooters may have ganged up on him, which would explain CRsr making a hasty retreat to the bedroom. If there was only 1 shooter on CRsr I think he may have tried to disarm the lone shooter. I can also see the 3rd shooter intercepting GR either as he enters late or perhaps he was the one to open the door and the shooter held him back and threatened him. Like I said, this is only my speculation.

We don't know what type of bullets were fired at Chris. There could be 2 different types. Yes 2 shooters likely went after him, the killers would be too cowardly to take Chris on--one on one-- while he is awake

And if the killers found Gary and Chris both home at the same time, I agree that 2 would go after Chris, and one after Gary. Chris held back Gary's money so it wouldn't surprise me if a killer held a gun to Gary's head and said to Chris "where do you keep all the money?"

Someone mentioned -- can't find the post -- something about LM's quote : "If they can live with it so can I"

I found the article where he is quoted saying that and wanted to post that part to give the quote more context. It's been a much discussed quote.

Asked what would be his message to the killers, he said: 'If they can live with it, I can too. But it's going to be on their conscience for the rest of their lives... It's going to be on my conscience for the rest of my life.'

Grandfather of Ohio massacre victims claims police are ignoring 'road rage' attack | Daily Mail Online

 

[Justus Forall]

I have often wondered if CRsr may have been hit by 2 shooters, possibly with both having the same shells. I haven’t seen anything to lead me in that direction but it would make sense in a way. IF the rumor of a prior fight with BW was true, then it’s possible 2 shooters may have ganged up on him, which would explain CRsr making a hasty retreat to the bedroom. If there was only 1 shooter on CRsr I think he may have tried to disarm the lone shooter. I can also see the 3rd shooter intercepting GR either as he enters late or perhaps he was the one to open the door and the shooter held him back and threatened him. Like I said, this is only my speculation.

Hats off to the contributors and mods. The all meat no fluff content at WS on this case is top shelf.

Regarding the different calibers found in the autopsies, were there more than two? From reading here If I recall correctly, .22 was one, a larger caliber was another?

 

[Puzzles8]

It was on her Twitter account.

Is her Twitter A/C still up? If so, are you allowed to share the account name?

 

[Abby1020]

I see what you are saying but I think that unless they don’t have anything on him that will stick I can’t see him getting out and walking free anytime soon. I would imagine he would still get 25 years or something. His son will be an adult before he sees sunlight. JMO.

I know this is a strange question, but does anyone remember the Judge telling the Defense in either Jake's or GW's pretrial that the Defense had to come up with the thumb drive for more discovery?

 

[Cool Cats]

Hats off to the contributors and mods. The all meat no fluff content at WS on this case is top shelf.

Regarding the different calibers found in the autopsies, were there more than two? From reading here If I recall correctly, .22 was one, a larger caliber was another?

.22 listed in evidence, large caliber gun mentioned in GR's autopsy.

Photos of 1911.22 (2)

"Gary was shot three times his report indicates that it was with a “large-caliber” gun."
Court releases autopsy reports in Rhoden deaths

• "Gary Rhoden (age 37): Three “contact” wounds (head)."

Rhodens shot in head at point-blank range

Other descriptions I have read pertaining to Gary:

"larger caliber bullets"
"was shot once in face, twice in head."

 

[Puzzles8]

They understood all right. They got an attorney to hit back at DeWine through the media:

KENAI, Alaska — The lawyer representing the former Peebles family authorities are focused on in the Rhoden family massacre investigation said his clients have cooperated fully in the probe.

And in return, John Kearson Clark said, the Wagner family are being "harassed while the real killer or killers are still out there."

"Why? Well, it's either because the authorities are clueless, incompetent or they themselves are involved in a cover-up," said Clark, who has offices in Jackson and Chillicothe. "Take your pick."

Clark said the family has "cooperated 110 percent".......Clark said he thinks politics has entered the investigation.

“I think he wants this solved somehow, some way, or at least make it look like he’s making progress, so that doesn’t come and haunt him when he’s running for election,” Clark said.

Angela Wagner declined the Enquirer's request for an interview outside of her Alaskan home Monday, referring all questions to Clark.

Clearly, the family had hoped to leave the swirls of speculation and finger-pointing back in Ohio. And, Clark said, the Wagners have grown weary of the constant questioning by authorities.

"It's the questions you would expect over and over and over: 'Where were you? What do you know?'" the lawyer said based on his conversations with the family. "Having (Jake) look at these pictures, some of them are horrific..."

Some family members and acquaintances of the Rhoden and Wagner families have alleged that Billy Wagner and Chris Rhoden, Sr., had a confrontation several weeks before the killings and that Jake Wagner and Hanna Rhoden were involved in a bitter custody dispute over Sophia.

Clark and Angela Wagner said neither is true.

Lawyer: Mike DeWine is harassing family in Rhoden case that moved to Alaska

Note that when push came to shove, Mr. Clark was no longer representing the W4.

Have to wonder, did Mr. Clark get wind of what really happened and voluntarily stepped away from the Wagners for moral reasons?

Or was Mr. Clark shoved aside by FW for Mr. Owen......for more practical reasons?

 

[Cool Cats]

Note that when push came to shove, Mr. Clark was no longer representing the W4.

Have to wonder, did Mr. Clark get wind of what really happened and voluntarily stepped away from the Wagners for moral reasons?

Or was Mr. Clark shoved aside by FW for Mr. Owen......for more practical reasons?

Clark was still speaking for the Wagner 4 at the time of their arrests and made a statement to the media.
Wagner family members arrested in execution-style murders of Pike Co., OH family

The 4 Wagners each have to have 2 death penalty certified attorneys, 8 total! I don't know if Clark even has those credentials.

Also, all 4 of the Wagner's filed this:

11/30/18 INDIGENT APPLICATION FILED (Angela)
11/27/18 Jake
12/4/18 George 3
11/28/18 George 4

Fred picked the best criminal attorney she could afford, her other cases were Civil Cases and totally different from her criminal case so it makes sense that she did not use an attorney she used previously:

The firm’s founder, attorney James D. Owen, was named “Ohio Super Lawyer” by Cincinnati Magazine and the Center for Law and Politics beginning in 2006 and continuing through 2014. This designation is awarded to only 5% of Ohio’s practicing attorneys, and designated him as having received the highest degree of peer recognition and achievement among practicing attorneys in Ohio.

In the time since, Owen has continued to add “not guilty” verdicts to his accolades and has diversified from criminal defense, to freeing innocent persons from prison and pursuing civil lawsuits against the government actors who wrongfully imprison them.

"......As Cincinnati Magazine put it, “Owen produced various pieces of previously overlooked evidence and won Ohio’s first death-penalty acquittal after executions were reinstated.”
With Owen’s representation, the men went on to claim the largest wrongful imprisonment award in Ohio history.

James Owen

Attorney James Owen | Koenig & Long LLC

 

[KentuckyMama]

I think about this family every single day. It's just so brutal. I'm sure it's only going to get worse as we find out more info. I think all 4 were shooting that night. Snakes don't even trust each other. It was how they were sure no one would talk. I think both grannies knew what was going to happen. Dana being shot so many times and in the way she was just screams hatred. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they let her live while her kids were being shot. They wanted her to know. That's probably why it took so many bullets to bring down CR. He knew what would happen next. Lights could have been on and they could have been awake if they were ordered back to their beds. But poor CRjr tried to hide anyway. Hurts my heart. I think they could have had a portable cell phone jammer. There was too much risk otherwise.
I don't think these animals just wanted this family dead. I think they wanted them to suffer. I have seen nothing near regret or remorse on any of their faces. There will be no flipping on family to get a lighter sentence IMO. GW4 may have made cute little comments on Facebook or elsewhere about how his kid is the most important thing in the world. Clearly that's not true at all. Normal parental love doesn't exist for these people. It's ownership. It's control. And using the kids to control others. I'm sure he can't stand the little boy being with his mom. Ownership. Control.

 

[Puzzles8]

There have been at least two other fairly recent homicides in the area with evidence that was attempted to be hidden in wells.

Pike Co. cold case: 'Stuff's been covered up long enough'

Pike County murder investigation revealing new details

This area of Ohio was settled by Europeans in the early 1800's (maybe even slightly earlier). Back then, wells were "wishing well" style with a canopy and water pail on a pulley handle. Point being, wells were dug by hand and were much wider than wells dug later, also shallower. Iron hand pumps came later and wells became much narrower, using suction. Modern day wells are deeper and narrower.

Most older wells were dug close to the stone foundation of the original farmhouse. Also were dug out in the pastures for the animals. Windmills powered the older wells for the cattle's water trough.

If I recall correctly, the Peterson property was originally two parcels of land. Before that, who knows.

Anyway, I am far from an expert on Ohio or wells for that matter, please fact check me!

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I don't think Canepa will take a plea. Can you imagine telling the Rhoden's, Manley's and Gilley's you are taking a plea and not the death penalty? I believe she has made a bond with the family's from where I have seen her hugging Mrs. Rhoden and Mr. Manley. I feel she has promised them justice! Plus she would be letting everyone in Piketon down and that would be just as bad. I sure hope she gives FW one of her " looks" back when she gets convictions! FW drove me nuts with her stare down she gave Canepa thinking that Canepa cares or is scared. FW has major issues!

So are you from the area? Piketon is actually about 15 miles from where the murders took place and you just might be surprised in how some people have reacted to these horrible, and IMO senseless killings. I have heard some pretty cruel things said.

 

[Fletcher73]

I know this is a strange question, but does anyone remember the Judge telling the Defense in either Jake's or GW's pretrial that the Defense had to come up with the thumb drive for more discovery?

Thumb drive isn't big enough. In the public part of at least two hearings, Canepa explained the voluminous amount of data still to be copied over, as prosecution was awaiting several very large drives - that it would take many hours to complete the transfer to the portable drives.