OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #51

[Cool Cats]

I agree CC something about the forged documents is strange and this will be an interesting trial. I am also curious why RN's attorney wanted the "box" the documents were found in or wanted to know what else was there. If other contents in the box found at AWs were not a part of RN's discovery then why be concerned?

Agree. 2+2 does not equal 4 here. There is far more to it. If you forge documents it's hard to get out of it so there is a reason Rita's attorney didn't get her to plea. And why do documents in a box matter if they are not legally filed with the Court? This "bugs" me. Yes, very interesting trial ahead.

...2 Cents........

 

[Cool Cats]

In going back through the Media & Timelines thread for the Rhoden Family Massacre, I've noticed several more instances of news media online articles and video from the 2016-2018 period have been altered, interviews and quotes deleted, etc. Nearly all seem to be quotes from LE, prosecutors and witnesses that incriminate various members of the 4 Wagners.

Quotes about violent incidents, pressure to sign over custody, etc. have been scrubbed from many of these videos and articles. I was even surprised to see that a quote from then AG Mike DeWine may have been scrubbed.

While this is very frustrating and, IMO, unethical, we may need to begin making our own copies of important news items that may end up being scrubbed from the internet.

ETA: I'm also realizing I'll need to update the Rhoden Murders Timeline as some of the links no longer contain relevant information.

Fortunately, I have found an alternate source for the quote from LM that the Wagners had tried to force HMR to sign over custody rights to S 2 to 3 weeks before the murders.

BBM

Here is where Leonard Manley in his own words says that the murders
could be "maybe a child custody thing."

 

[Loomis124]

So your right about the forged documents being different charges. I went back and read the 3 Forgery Charges:

Count #1) is forgery related to Hanna Rhoden.
Count #2) is Forgery related to Jake.
Count#3) is related to GW3.

In relation to Jake and GW4, I saw the custody document on
Angenette Levy's Twitter account, the part that said Angela would get custody of the kids in the event of Hanna/Jake/GW4 deaths. So why fake that part it's perfectly legal.

A divorced father can file a custody document saying that if he and the mother die, custody goes to the grandparent. No need for the ex wife's signature, especially when he knows the ex-wife won't be around to contest it.

Then you have the box of custody documents. If in a box, so what, that's not illegal either. I assume custody documents were FILED WITH THE COURT for criminal charges against Rita to be filed.

Something (strange) here is going on that induced Rita to take this to trial and not plea. If "cut and dried" she would plea. All in my opinion only.

Angenette Levy √ VERIFIED
@Angenette5

Emmy-nominated reporter at WKRC. Constantly curious. Surprise mom. Big fan of animals, coffee and great conversation. Don't back down.
twitter.com

CC, I'm not a twitter user, so I don't know how to search. Can you please link (referred to above) where you saw AW would get custody...etc.? I only saw blank forms. Thank you so much.

 

[Loomis124]

I agree CC something about the forged documents is strange and this will be an interesting trial. I am also curious why RN's attorney wanted the "box" the documents were found in or wanted to know what else was there. If other contents in the box found at AWs were not a part of RN's discovery then why be concerned?

IMO, he wanted it so he pass along the info to the other attorneys.

 

[Loomis124]

What I saw was custody only going to Angela. Nothing about Rita. In the event of Angela's death I am sure they would want custody to go to Billy, the grandfather.

...2 Cents.......

Can you please link what you saw? Thanks!!

 

[Loomis124]

Forged court orders trigger new security measures

Good example

 

[Loomis124]

Sheriff Reader was the lone ranger to stand before the court and request that no information about the surviving children be shared. Reader was the one and only one there for those children. And Rosenberger was not in Reader's corner. He had to judge accordingly to save face. JMO And why was Tony Rhoden not there? JMO

 

[Loomis124]

Agree. 2+2 does not equal 4 here. There is far more to it. If you forge documents it's hard to get out of it so there is a reason Rita's attorney didn't get her to plea. And why do documents in a box matter if they are not legally filed with the Court? This "bugs" me. Yes, very interesting trial ahead.

...2 Cents........

CC, where do you get that custody/guardianship documents have to be filed in order to be evidence of forgery? JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Can you please link what you saw? Thanks!!

I used my Messenger account and reached out to her and asked if she would link me to where she posted Rita's custody documents. I'll keep trying. Hopefully I'll hear back.

 

[Loomis124]

I used my Messenger account and reached out to her and asked if she would link me to where she posted Rita's custody documents. I'll keep trying. Hopefully I'll hear back.

Very interesting. Wonder how she got that that document when it isn't even in Discovery? I can't see this document in full since I don't subscribe. But I have never seen a document with names, i.e., Angela Wagner. Please do share when you locate. Thanks!

Newcomb Discovery

 

[Cool Cats]

Very interesting. Wonder how she got that that document when it isn't even in Discovery? I can't see this document in full since I don't subscribe. But I have never seen a document with names, i.e., Angela Wagner. Please do share when you locate. Thanks!

Newcomb Discovery

The forged custody documents are in evidence to use to prosecute her. Without them, no case. The reporter got some type of copy of a custody document that mentioned Angela Wagner specifically. I'm trying to see if she will post it on her Twitter account again, or share a link.

At the very least, we should see this during her trial.

 

[Loomis124]

At the bottom of this post is the link to a free preview of a blank of the form downloaded (from a Texas firm) and used/forged in RN's case and the 4 Wagner cases. IMO, based on Discovery and especially RN's hearing regarding "the box" and the comments from Canepa, (IMO) HR's signature was electronically copied from another document and inserted into this form. Dates were cut and pasted. 4 Wagners either forged as witnesses or their names were inserted in the same manner. Then......Rita notarized all of them. Very BIG deal. Perhaps the reason Gerlach has not advised her to plea is because Prosecutors have not offered a bargain. All just my opinion.

Texas Statutory Declaration of Appointment of Guardian for My Child in the Event of My Death or Incapacity | US Legal Forms

 

[Loomis124]

The forged custody documents are in evidence to use to prosecute her. Without them, no case. The reporter got some type of copy of a custody document that mentioned Angela Wagner specifically. I'm trying to see if she will post it on her Twitter account again, or share a link.

At the very least, we should see this during her trial.

Thanks.

 

[Loomis124]

Sheriff Reader was the lone ranger to stand before the court and request that no information about the surviving children be shared. Reader was the one and only one there for those children. And Rosenberger was not in Reader's corner. He had to judge accordingly to save face. JMO And why was Tony Rhoden not there? JMO

Does anyone know if R Waddell and Wagners were acquaintances? TIA

 

[Loomis124]

Sheriff Reader was the lone ranger to stand before the court and request that no information about the surviving children be shared. Reader was the one and only one there for those children. And Rosenberger was not in Reader's corner. He had to judge accordingly to save face. JMO And why was Tony Rhoden not there? JMO

Clearly, Reader stood against Judge Rosenberger and held his feet to the fire. Thank you, Charlie!

Pike County sheriff: Rhoden children still in danger

 

[Cool Cats]

CC, where do you get that custody/guardianship documents have to be filed in order to be evidence of forgery? JMO

If I forge a bunch of checks but never try to cash them, can I be indicted for forgery? If I falsify custody documents but don't do anything with them, just leave them in a box, can I be arrested for forgery?

I thought you needed to follow through for it to be a forgery charge, that there has to be a victim who suffers a loss. However, maybe it is illegal just to possess a forged document even if you never use it?

Like maybe it is illegal that Rita notarized Hanna's fake signature even though Jake may never have used that fake document to get custody.

It's just a theory I have that Jake never actually used the fake custody documents. We know he gave a sworn affidavit but don't know if he took the custody papers with him. If they were never actually used then this could be why Rita is going to trial, it gives her a defense.

It's almost impossible to beat fraud charges when there is proof right there in writing on the documents and the documents were actually used, but if the documents were found in a box and never used, a jury might let Rita off with a good defense. And she has a very good private attorney someone is paying for.

 

[Cool Cats]

delete posted twice

 

[Loomis124]

If I forge a bunch of checks but never try to cash them, can I be indicted for forgery? If I falsify custody documents but don't do anything with them, just leave them in a box, can I be arrested for forgery?

I thought you needed to follow through for it to be a forgery charge, that there has to be a victim who suffers a loss. However, maybe it is illegal just to possess a forged document even if you never use it?

Like maybe it is illegal that Rita notarized Hanna's fake signature even though Jake may never have used that fake document to get custody.

It's just a theory I have that Jake never actually used the fake custody documents. We know he gave a sworn affidavit but don't know if he took the custody papers with him. If they were never actually used then this could be why Rita is going to trial, it gives her a defense.

It's almost impossible to beat fraud charges when there is proof right there in writing on the documents and the documents were actually used, but if the documents were found in a box and never used, a jury might let Rita off with a good defense. And she has a very good private attorney someone is paying for.

I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and opinions. Guess I just see things very differently and much more serious in this case, attached to 8 DP aggravated murder cases. Makes a great difference from ordinary Forgery cases IMO.

 

[Betty P]

So your right about the forged documents being different charges. I went back and read the 3 Forgery Charges:

Count #1) is forgery related to Hanna Rhoden.
Count #2) is Forgery related to Jake.
Count#3) is related to GW3.

In relation to Jake and GW4, I saw the custody document on
Angenette Levy's Twitter account, the part that said Angela would get custody of the kids in the event of Hanna/Jake/GW4 deaths. So why fake that part it's perfectly legal.

A divorced father can file a custody document saying that if he and the mother die, custody goes to the grandparent. No need for the ex wife's signature, especially when he knows the ex-wife won't be around to contest it.

Then you have the box of custody documents. If in a box, so what, that's not illegal either. I assume custody documents were FILED WITH THE COURT for criminal charges against Rita to be filed.

Something (strange) here is going on that induced Rita to take this to trial and not plea. If "cut and dried" she would plea. All in my opinion only.

Angenette Levy √ VERIFIED
@Angenette5

Emmy-nominated reporter at WKRC. Constantly curious. Surprise mom. Big fan of animals, coffee and great conversation. Don't back down.
twitter.com

Here's the Ohio Revised Code references from the charges - ORC 2913.31

Lawriter - ORC - 2913.31 Forgery - Forging identification cards or selling or distributing forged identification cards.

(A) No person, with purpose to defraud, or knowing that the person is facilitating a fraud, shall do any of the following:

(1) Forge any writing of another without the other person's authority;

(2) Forge any writing so that it purports to be genuine when it actually is spurious, or to be the act of another who did not authorize that act, or to have been executed at a time or place or with terms different from what in fact was the case, or to be a copy of an original when no such original existed;

Also C(1)(B)

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (C)(1)(c) of this section and subject to division (C)(1)(d) of this section, forgery is a felony of the fifth degree. If property or services are involved in the offense or the victim suffers a loss, forgery is one of the following:

(i) If the value of the property or services or the loss to the victim is seven thousand five hundred dollars or more and is less than one hundred fifty thousand dollars, a felony of the fourth degree;

(ii) If the value of the property or services or the loss to the victim is one hundred fifty thousand dollars or more, a felony of the third degree.

BBM

The Ohio Revised Code doesn't say anything about documents needing to be filed in court or official in any capacity to be considered a forgery. Just like someone creating a fake ID or driver's license with a forged signature - it doesn't have to be filed with the BMV for the forger to be charged. They just have to have the fake ID and be proven to have forged it and the signature on it.

It's no big deal overall, but it doesn't sound like the state has to demonstrate the forged documents were filed with the government in order to bring forgery charges. It will certainly help the prosecutions case even more if they did file those forged documents.

ETA: This link states that in most states, forgery or fraud require the act to be done with the intent to commit fraud or larceny.

Forgery - FindLaw

So, yes, the state has enough evidence to prove the forgeries were done with that intent - to commit fraud. JMO

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...ecutions/PikeCountyAdditionalIndictments.aspx

 

[Betty P]

Forged court orders trigger new security measures

Good example

Well, that's an interesting new tactic.

ETA: Not relevant to the current discussion, but an important reminder

Rhoden family massacre: Prosecutor alleges Fredericka Wagner plotted revenge
Rhoden family massacre: Prosecutor alleges Fredericka Wagner plotted revenge

Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa alleged a confidential informant told them of a meeting at Wagner's home with her family members where they had "conversations surrounding if one or more of them were arrested what the others were to do including taking revenge on those persons not arrested" and plans for escape. She also alleged they spoke of taking revenge on a special agent, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, and Attorney General Mike DeWine.

BBM