OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #69

[RAISINISBACK]

LWOP is what the judge will give him I believe, if he is convicted of murder. For him not to be convicted of murder the jury would have to believe that not only did he not shoot anyone, but it didn't matter that he went along with his family to all the murder scenes, and that he just sat outside doing nothing.

It doesn't matter if he didn't shoot anyone, he went along and that shows direct participation plus his shoe print places him in a home. Just going along shows he was a lookout and participant.

Just going along means he was being supportive of killing 8 people and also 3 guns were taken not 2.

A jury will see through his bull. I believe he will be convicted of murder and get sentenced by the judge to LWOP.

If he had not gone along to the murder scenes and the jury believed that, and he wasn't convicted of murder, only then would there be the possibility of the 30 years. Opinion.

Glad your back to have differing discussions with. Take care of yourself.

BBM
Glad your back to have differing discussions with.

First of all thank you for the welcome back. I think this discussion is going to wind up being a doozy.

I am going to step on some toes here with my hard soled moccasins or my cowboy boots (depends on my mood of the day. lol)

Let me be honest here. I had heard of the Appalachian mountains but knew very little about the region before this case. I had never talked to anyone from the region until I got on this forum. I have never been to Ohio or Kentucky although I did go through a small corner of the Appalachians in route to Virginia Beach VA. Absolutely beautiful if I may say so. But since being on here, talking to people from the region I have did quite a bit of reading about the history of the Appalachians and the people.

If I had to sum up the people of the region in one word, that word would be loyal. Loyal to family, friends, state and especially the Appalachian way of life. I can relate very well since I have a cowboy hat with Native Pride printed on the front of it. The second word would be fair. Maybe not fair according to the laws of the state but fair according to their beliefs and raising. I can relate to that since it is common knowledge of the government's unfair treatment to Native Americans.

My loyalty runs number one, family, two, tribe, and lastly law enforcement although most of you know hubby is retired LE.

That being said I am going to hark back to late 19th century all the way up to today. My understanding of the Appalachian region is that family comes first. Social mores of the region has always been to side with family against everyone else and especially LE. We see that very plainly in Lenny's first statements where he says a lot has been covered up in Pike county by LE and his anger over his son's truck. He does not trust LE. I think his distrust of LE is very prevalent in the area harking back to the days of moonshine (not knocking moonshine, it has a lot of medicinal purposes) when the attitude of a man was "it's my corn, grown with my own hands on my own land, so it's my business what I do with it, whether I eat corn on the cob, can it up in jars, grind it up for cornmeal or make moonshine with it."

Also this is a region where justice is often meted out by those wronged and the law is left out of it. "creek justice" I believe RSD1200 called it. I can relate since I am from the Oklahoma Badlands. lol Keep in mind Oklahoma was the wild west until 1907. Still gets pretty wild on Saturday nights.

So all of us being aware that the jury will be chosen from Pike County I think we have to consider the social mores and prevalent attitude of the region. I absolutely believe that George will be convicted on all charges, but I also think we have to consider the jury and their belief system.

I think that IF I am putting this big and bold because it is a huge IF, the jury believes three statements of Jake and Angie's, especially Angie who is George's mother they are going to recommend a lighter sentence for George of life with parole or 30 years.

Those three statements being

1. George tried to talk them out of it but ended up going along with the plan.

Remember family loyalty. You don't go against family. But it begs the question "why didn't he just call LE and report their plan before they could carry it out?" Because you do not side with LE over family. You don't snitch on family period. I think some statement's in evidence of George's bears out his disagreement with this plan and his resentment in being dragged into it. The text "Jake is always getting us in trouble over some woman." and "we went to all this trouble, did all this so you (Jake) could get custody of SW and now you are allowing her to call EW mom?" Then there is the testimony that Jake did not want to end his relationship with EW but caved in to family pressure. I absolutely believe this social belief will be in the back of the jurors' minds whether they are consciously aware of it or not.

Number 2.

George didn't kill anyone.

Remember the fair mindedness of the region. Maybe he shot someone and didn't kill them or he didn't shoot at all. We don't know that yet and probably won't until he goes to trial and we get a good look at Jake and Angie's proffers. He was there, he went along out of family loyalty but he didn't actually take a life. I think this too will be in jurors' minds, whether they are consciously aware of it or not.

Number 3.

George only went along to protect Jake from Billy.

I absolutely believe this statement. I think the dynamics of that family was George bonded closely with Billy (or as closely as Billy was capable of being the narcissist he is.) Jake bonded closely with Angie. I think Billy was contemptuous of Jake on many levels, his size, his failure to be the big macho man like Billy is and his attachment to his mama ect. I think the only thing Jake inherited from Billy was his narcissism and sense of entitlement. I also think that George spent a large portion of his life running interference between Billy and Jake when Billy would get onto Jake for some reason. I also absolutely believe Billy was fully capable of turning his rage on Jake. But I think in this instance George would have been more accurate to say he went along to protect Billy from Jake because when you throw two narcissists together with gun it's whoever gets the drop on the other the fastest. I think Jake was more than capable of turning that gun on Billy and getting revenge for a lifetime of mental abuse (maybe physical abuse also since we are pretty sure Billy is a bully evidenced by him pointing a gun at Angie's head and also at an innocent motorist in a road rage incident.) Jake may have taken that chance to even a few scores with Billy had George not been there, with the added benefit of placing all the blame for all the murders on Billy claiming it was over the fight with Chris Sr. Jake would have skated scott free in that case absconding to Alaska with his mother and daughter to live out their Last Frontier fantasy.

Since there is a fair amount of posters on here from the region I ask all of you from the region to think this over, get some opinions from family and friends then tell me if you think I am on point and why or why not.

JMO, MOO, IMO Just my own theory and opinion.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

The only defense I could see G4 trying to use at this point is that he was scared and pressured by his family and felt he had to go along with the crime or suffer consequences. That is the only defense that I can think they can try to muster up at this point. Do not think it will help him much, if any, but I guess they have to try some defense. I will be interested to see what they actually try to claim.

BBM
The only defense I could see G4 trying to use at this point is that he was scared and pressured by his family and felt he had to go along with the crime or suffer consequences.

I totally agree with your opinion on this. I think you are right on point.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

It seems he did travel with them that night in a modified truck and was at the scenes. I believe he did have a weapon. I think the intent was to fire his weapon but something may have happened and he did not or he did but missed and if he missed his defense will probably say he missed on purpose. I can only think a defense they may use, is that he was scared and pressured to go along with his family in this crime. Not saying it will help him but I cannot think of another right now they can try to present to a jury.

Ditto. Your reasoning on this is correct IMO.

JMO

 

[ohioexpat63]

Im not sure who assigns sentencing in ohio criminal courts, judge or jury?

i do believe it they go to trial, and are convicted, they will receive LWOP. Perhaps, maybe, if G4 pleads he may get the angie sweetheart deal. I hope heremains stupid and goes to trial. JMO

 

[Piffcat]

ive gotta say that g4 going along only to keep jake safe from billy is an astonishingly offensive tactic and shows just how ruthless and manipulative the wagners are even at this point. put aside the obvious lie and focus on what the lie intends to accomplish- and that is that somehow g4 participating in a slaughter of a family could be framed as a positive trait, that g4 is just so heroic that he made sure billy didnt kill his brother WHILE THEY WERE MURDERING 8 people. this is how diluted these devils are. i think g4 really believes his own bs which is the most dangerous type of psycopath, those that are convinced what their doing is just. if g4 was a real man and wanted to protect jake, if the situation was that deadly, why not just kill b3? wouldnt that be a better solution then accompanying jake and b3 to annhiliate innocent people whos only crime is allowing their daughter to date jake. thats it. none of them had any hint they were to die or never wake up, because they had done nothing to deserve it. the most cowardly act ive ever heard of and its topped only by this cowardly statement. once those crime scene photos come out, and jake walks the jury thru how they murdered mothers with babies nearby, this bs excuse will only serve to further infuriate the jury against these losers. g4 will end up with the same fate as jake. they both deserve much worse

 

[ohioexpat63]

If G4 was such a good guy all he had to do was call the cops and end the madness before it started. It is my opinion G4 went there to murder and make daddy proud. It is ludicrous for me to believe G4 went ong to protect jake. Maybehe wanted to protecct daddy from the murdering jake. Jake was lusting for blood and he wasnt going to be denied by anyone, including daddy.

 

[Fat Old Man]

All the threats and what he was saying, what he would do if they got arrested. Will, prove his story his BS. I say the death penalty, will be reinstated. AW sweetheart, deal will go away. I still believe the judge, was surprised the prosecution agreed to it.

 

[ohioexpat63]

Id bet my life the good people.of.pike,scioto or even adams county will bury these idiots , the wagNer4, beneath a prison cesspool. They murdered breast feeding mothers. They are done, finished and never to be assembled amongst humans.

 

[Covert Operative]

Im not sure who assigns sentencing in ohio criminal courts, judge or jury?

i do believe it they go to trial, and are convicted, they will receive LWOP. Perhaps, maybe, if G4 pleads he may get the angie sweetheart deal. I hope heremains stupid and goes to trial. JMO

I think the judge actually decides the sentence, but I do think the jury is allowed to make recommendations to the judge in a criminal case. Could be wrong on that.

 

[Cool Cats]

Im not sure who assigns sentencing in ohio criminal courts, judge or jury?

i do believe it they go to trial, and are convicted, they will receive LWOP. Perhaps, maybe, if G4 pleads he may get the angie sweetheart deal. I hope heremains stupid and goes to trial. JMO

In death penalty cases there is a second trial and the jury decides death or not, but without that, the judge in George's case will decide his sentence with prosecutors and defense heavily explaining what they want.

Obviously if he is convicted of 8 aggravated murders the judge will have to follow sentencing guidelines which is LWOP. Different States have different guidelines.

The following table highlights the main provisions of Ohio's aggravated murder laws. See also First-Degree Murder Defenses and First-Degree Murder Penalties and Sentencing.

Code Sections	First-Degree Murder: Ohio Revised Code Section 2903.01
A.K.A.	"Aggravated murder"
What is Prohibited?	A planned or intentional homicide of another person or unborn fetus or a homicide while committing certain listed felonies.
Felony Murder	A person commits felony murder (murder) if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- such as arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
Penalty	Capital punishment, life imprisonment without possibility of parole
Civil Case	Possible wrongful death lawsuit

There is no 30 years here.

 

[Cool Cats]

If G4 was such a good guy all he had to do was call the cops and end the madness before it started. It is my opinion G4 went there to murder and make daddy proud. It is ludicrous for me to believe G4 went ong to protect jake. Maybehe wanted to protecct daddy from the murdering jake. Jake was lusting for blood and he wasnt going to be denied by anyone, including daddy.

It doesn't even make sense to go along to protect the murderer. You are then ensuring that the murderer stays alive to do his murders. It also means he would have tried to protect Jake had a victim fought Jake back.

This is so dumb that no wonder the defense keeps losing their stupid Motions.

You go to protect the victims and to warn the victims.

 

[Cool Cats]

BBM
Glad your back to have differing discussions with.

First of all thank you for the welcome back. I think this discussion is going to wind up being a doozy.

I am going to step on some toes here with my hard soled moccasins or my cowboy boots (depends on my mood of the day. lol)

Let me be honest here. I had heard of the Appalachian mountains but knew very little about the region before this case. I had never talked to anyone from the region until I got on this forum. I have never been to Ohio or Kentucky although I did go through a small corner of the Appalachians in route to Virginia Beach VA. Absolutely beautiful if I may say so. But since being on here, talking to people from the region I have did quite a bit of reading about the history of the Appalachians and the people.

If I had to sum up the people of the region in one word, that word would be loyal. Loyal to family, friends, state and especially the Appalachian way of life. I can relate very well since I have a cowboy hat with Native Pride printed on the front of it. The second word would be fair. Maybe not fair according to the laws of the state but fair according to their beliefs and raising. I can relate to that since it is common knowledge of the government's unfair treatment to Native Americans.

My loyalty runs number one, family, two, tribe, and lastly law enforcement although most of you know hubby is retired LE.

That being said I am going to hark back to late 19th century all the way up to today. My understanding of the Appalachian region is that family comes first. Social mores of the region has always been to side with family against everyone else and especially LE. We see that very plainly in Lenny's first statements where he says a lot has been covered up in Pike county by LE and his anger over his son's truck. He does not trust LE. I think his distrust of LE is very prevalent in the area harking back to the days of moonshine (not knocking moonshine, it has a lot of medicinal purposes) when the attitude of a man was "it's my corn, grown with my own hands on my own land, so it's my business what I do with it, whether I eat corn on the cob, can it up in jars, grind it up for cornmeal or make moonshine with it."

Also this is a region where justice is often meted out by those wronged and the law is left out of it. "creek justice" I believe RSD1200 called it. I can relate since I am from the Oklahoma Badlands. lol Keep in mind Oklahoma was the wild west until 1907. Still gets pretty wild on Saturday nights.

So all of us being aware that the jury will be chosen from Pike County I think we have to consider the social mores and prevalent attitude of the region. I absolutely believe that George will be convicted on all charges, but I also think we have to consider the jury and their belief system.

I think that IF I am putting this big and bold because it is a huge IF, the jury believes three statements of Jake and Angie's, especially Angie who is George's mother they are going to recommend a lighter sentence for George of life with parole or 30 years.

Those three statements being

1. George tried to talk them out of it but ended up going along with the plan.

Remember family loyalty. You don't go against family. But it begs the question "why didn't he just call LE and report their plan before they could carry it out?" Because you do not side with LE over family. You don't snitch on family period. I think some statement's in evidence of George's bears out his disagreement with this plan and his resentment in being dragged into it. The text "Jake is always getting us in trouble over some woman." and "we went to all this trouble, did all this so you (Jake) could get custody of SW and now you are allowing her to call EW mom?" Then there is the testimony that Jake did not want to end his relationship with EW but caved in to family pressure. I absolutely believe this social belief will be in the back of the jurors' minds whether they are consciously aware of it or not.

Number 2.

George didn't kill anyone.

Remember the fair mindedness of the region. Maybe he shot someone and didn't kill them or he didn't shoot at all. We don't know that yet and probably won't until he goes to trial and we get a good look at Jake and Angie's proffers. He was there, he went along out of family loyalty but he didn't actually take a life. I think this too will be in jurors' minds, whether they are consciously aware of it or not.

Number 3.

George only went along to protect Jake from Billy.

I absolutely believe this statement. I think the dynamics of that family was George bonded closely with Billy (or as closely as Billy was capable of being the narcissist he is.) Jake bonded closely with Angie. I think Billy was contemptuous of Jake on many levels, his size, his failure to be the big macho man like Billy is and his attachment to his mama ect. I think the only thing Jake inherited from Billy was his narcissism and sense of entitlement. I also think that George spent a large portion of his life running interference between Billy and Jake when Billy would get onto Jake for some reason. I also absolutely believe Billy was fully capable of turning his rage on Jake. But I think in this instance George would have been more accurate to say he went along to protect Billy from Jake because when you throw two narcissists together with gun it's whoever gets the drop on the other the fastest. I think Jake was more than capable of turning that gun on Billy and getting revenge for a lifetime of mental abuse (maybe physical abuse also since we are pretty sure Billy is a bully evidenced by him pointing a gun at Angie's head and also at an innocent motorist in a road rage incident.) Jake may have taken that chance to even a few scores with Billy had George not been there, with the added benefit of placing all the blame for all the murders on Billy claiming it was over the fight with Chris Sr. Jake would have skated scott free in that case absconding to Alaska with his mother and daughter to live out their Last Frontier fantasy.

Since there is a fair amount of posters on here from the region I ask all of you from the region to think this over, get some opinions from family and friends then tell me if you think I am on point and why or why not.

JMO, MOO, IMO Just my own theory and opinion.

But the jury will not be the Wagner family's kin/clan. They have no loyalty to them. It will be seen as one clan unfairly and using unfair measures to kill off another clan.

They can't allow that. To allow that means any clan can just kill off another clan for no reason.

Kin stick together but no juror will be kin to the Wagners. The jurors will see it was cold blooded aggravated murder and George for whatever reason was there participating. And in Ohio it is felony/aggravated murder just because he committed felony/aggravated burglary and people were killed. Link above.

Felony Murder

A person commits felony murder (murder) if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- such as arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.

The fact George was there during aggravated robbery and people were killed is enough for an aggravated murder conviction.

He was part of that burglary and it doesn't matter that he may not have shot a victim himself.

 

[Cool Cats]

06/30/2022 RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION #87 REQUESTING THE COURT TO ADHERE TO THE OHIO STATUTORY SCHEME FOR JURY SERVICE FILED 06/28/2022 Counsel for the State of Ohio indicated to the Court that on or before Friday, June 24, 2022, the State of Ohio would serve and file a written response to Defendant's Motion No. 87, entitled "DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO ADHERE TO THE OHIO STATUTORY SCHEME FOR JURY SERVICE." The Court finds that each party, through counsel, agrees that Defendant's Motion No. 87 will thereafter be decided by the Court, without further hearing or argument.

 

[Dudly]

In death penalty cases there is a second trial and the jury decides death or not, but without that, the judge in George's case will decide his sentence with prosecutors and defense heavily explaining what they want.

Obviously if he is convicted of 8 aggravated murders the judge will have to follow sentencing guidelines which is LWOP. Different States have different guidelines.

The following table highlights the main provisions of Ohio's aggravated murder laws. See also First-Degree Murder Defenses and First-Degree Murder Penalties and Sentencing.

Code Sections	First-Degree Murder: Ohio Revised Code Section 2903.01
A.K.A.	"Aggravated murder"
What is Prohibited?	A planned or intentional homicide of another person or unborn fetus or a homicide while committing certain listed felonies.
Felony Murder	A person commits felony murder (murder) if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- such as arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
Penalty	Capital punishment, life imprisonment without possibility of parole
Civil Case	Possible wrongful death lawsuit

There is no 30 years here.

He was charged with burglary and deaths occurred during that burglary he participated in so according to this, he is guilty of Felony Murder….

 

[RAISINISBACK]

ive gotta say that g4 going along only to keep jake safe from billy is an astonishingly offensive tactic and shows just how ruthless and manipulative the wagners are even at this point. put aside the obvious lie and focus on what the lie intends to accomplish- and that is that somehow g4 participating in a slaughter of a family could be framed as a positive trait, that g4 is just so heroic that he made sure billy didnt kill his brother WHILE THEY WERE MURDERING 8 people. this is how diluted these devils are. i think g4 really believes his own bs which is the most dangerous type of psycopath, those that are convinced what their doing is just. if g4 was a real man and wanted to protect jake, if the situation was that deadly, why not just kill b3? wouldnt that be a better solution then accompanying jake and b3 to annhiliate innocent people whos only crime is allowing their daughter to date jake. thats it. none of them had any hint they were to die or never wake up, because they had done nothing to deserve it. the most cowardly act ive ever heard of and its topped only by this cowardly statement. once those crime scene photos come out, and jake walks the jury thru how they murdered mothers with babies nearby, this bs excuse will only serve to further infuriate the jury against these losers. g4 will end up with the same fate as jake. they both deserve much worse

BBM

put aside the obvious lie and focus on what the lie intends to accomplish- and that is that somehow g4 participating in a slaughter of a family could be framed as a positive trait, that g4 is just so heroic that he made sure billy didnt kill his brother WHILE THEY WERE MURDERING 8 people.

This is a very well put and well thought out argument. I actually never considered this point. When viewed this way it does seem to be an obvious contradiction. Kudos for bringing this to our attention, As always, your logic and common sense is a huge asset to this forum. I always look forward to reading your posts.

So you are of the opinion that jurors will see through this obvious lie and contradiction and recommend LWOP or DP?

Thank you so much for answering my very informal poll here.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

If G4 was such a good guy all he had to do was call the cops and end the madness before it started. It is my opinion G4 went there to murder and make daddy proud. It is ludicrous for me to believe G4 went ong to protect jake. Maybehe wanted to protecct daddy from the murdering jake. Jake was lusting for blood and he wasnt going to be denied by anyone, including daddy.

BBM
Maybe he wanted to protect daddy from the murdering jake.

Thank you so much, as always you bring up some very good points.

I also thought protecting Billy from Jake was in George's mind. Jake is the ultimate narcissist. I absolutely think it was Jake's show all the way. I have said that many times over the years. I think Jake worked on Angie by bringing up and using against the R's the past of Clarence R and feeding her horror stories about what might happen to SW. She then worked on Billy who I believe is, I hate to say retarded since that is not PC these days, but will instead say that if you look up the word dumb in the dictionary Billy's picture is beside it as an example.

As for calling LE and reporting his family I don't think that was an option for him. Also I don't think the thought ever entered his mind to do so.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

All the threats and what he was saying, what he would do if they got arrested. Will, prove his story his BS. I say the death penalty, will be reinstated. AW sweetheart, deal will go away. I still believe the judge, was surprised the prosecution agreed to it.

BBM

I still believe the judge, was surprised the prosecution agreed to it.

So you think that even if the jury recommended a lighter sentence the judge would disregard it. Thank you so much for your insight. I love your posts BTW.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Id bet my life the good people.of.pike,scioto or even adams county will bury these idiots , the wagNer4, beneath a prison cesspool. They murdered breast feeding mothers. They are done, finished and never to be assembled amongst humans.

As I said the people of the region are family first so I think you are correct in thinking that murdering mothers who are breastfeeding is and will be the most heinous part of this case to the jurors.

Hugs to you.

Raize

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I think the judge actually decides the sentence, but I do think the jury is allowed to make recommendations to the judge in a criminal case. Could be wrong on that.

I don't think you are wrong. It is that way here also.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

It doesn't even make sense to go along to protect the murderer. You are then ensuring that the murderer stays alive to do his murders. It also means he would have tried to protect Jake had a victim fought Jake back.

This is so dumb that no wonder the defense keeps losing their stupid Motions.

You go to protect the victims and to warn the victims.

BBM
It doesn't even make sense to go along to protect the murderer. You are then ensuring that the murderer stays alive to do his murders. It also means he would have tried to protect Jake had a victim fought Jake back.


Good call. Your logic floors me as always. That's how I got that swampland which I have now built a luxury hotel on as everyone who builds in a flood zone does. I am advertising all inclusive malaria and Zika virus with your stay. Not to mention heartworms for your little doggie family members.

JMO