OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #70

[Chelly]

Personally, I'm going to stick with regular news media sources - like the major newspapers and television news. A lot of you watch CourtTV and Law and Crime, so I assume they're ok. Maybe we should ask mods if they want to give us a list.

For Twitter, I've been following Patty Newberry with Cincinnati Engquirer and Angenette Levy with Law and Crime (she used to work for Columbus Dispatch, right?) Someone shared a Tweet that Chris Graves is going to report again.

This trial is starting to get coverage from media in Europe, too.

Great idea asking mods to provide us with guidance on trusted news outlets.

And, yes, Chris Graves will be back in Ohio reporting on the trial for its duration according to her own twitter account. Chris Graves is a WS trusted reporter.

 

[Betty P]

Great idea asking mods to provide us with guidance on trusted news outlets.

And, yes, Chris Graves will be back in Ohio reporting on the trial for its duration according to her own twitter account. Chris Graves is a WS trusted reporter.

Probably a good idea to get Mod approval for any digital copies of court documents that show up on social media. We've been keeping to that for a while. Those can be altered. Hopefully, there won't be many new ones once the trial starts.

 

[Betty P]

Great idea asking mods to provide us with guidance on trusted news outlets.

And, yes, Chris Graves will be back in Ohio reporting on the trial for its duration according to her own twitter account. Chris Graves is a WS trusted reporter.

Do you recall which news outlet she's going to report for? She did her last article with the Washington Post, IIRC

ETA: Also feel free to double check what I'm posting about reading online. My eye doc said he thinks I'm ready for cataract surgery. My vision is not bad, but it's not what it used to be.

 

[Puzzles8]

Fencing going up around the Courthouse.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565752198058971139

JMO

 

[justtrish]

Interesting Tweet from Angenette Levy

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565715922769289220

There's no one to directly testify to this fight because the Wagners killed all of them. JMO

Jake could certainly testify to it because I can't imagine that they didn't discuss it or possibly even that Jake was there if/when this fight occurred.

 

[Betty P]

Jake could certainly testify to it because I can't imagine that they didn't discuss it or possibly even that Jake was there if/when this fight occurred.

One would think it might be in his proffer. Maybe he really wasn't there. Maybe it was just Chris & Billy. What about GW4? Could the prosecution bring it up if they knew he was there? If so, he wouldn't be able to testify against himself.

I hope the details come out later. The prosecution must have had some reason to believe it would be admissible evidence. Maybe Leonard Manley was there, so the prosecution originally planned to have him testify. IDK

 

[IType]

Jake could certainly testify to it because I can't imagine that they didn't discuss it or possibly even that Jake was there if/when this fight occurred.

Since JW and GW4 drove a truck over the road, it's possible they were out of town when that fight occurred. JMO if either of them had been there, they would have jumped in and helped their dad and the outcome wouldn't have been so much in CRSRs favor since it would have been 2 or 3 against 1. Just my thoughts

 

[Cool Cats]

So this is interesting, they won't have anyone testify on the stand about Chris and Billy's fight who actually didn't witness it. It would be hearsay for a witness to say they heard about it from someone else.

Makes you wonder if Kenny witnessed it and so that played into them going after him?

We don't know if Jake or Angela told the prosecution about this fight. If the prosecution found out about the fight directly from Jake or Angela being there or Billy telling Jake or Angela, then maybe it will come out on the stand. Unless Billy telling Jake and Angela is considered hearsay and inadmissible.

But if Jake and Angela say they don't know about a fight between Billy and Chris that means the prosecution found out second hand from others not there which is hearsay, then it won't be brought up in court.

Unless, could there actually be a witness who was there?

This is just one of many confusing things coming up about this trial. I find it confusing that Jake says he shot and killed 5 people but then says he also shot a 6th person. It's confusing for Jake to proclaim George shot nobody but then proclaim he doesn't really know who shot who. To not know who shot who means that George could have shot someone.

If the defense trips up Jake and Angela on the stand does that mean they are leading their own client into getting the DP? Jake and Angela have to testify truthfully.

The defense wants EW's address but then admits that she might not even want to talk to them at all. Her neighbors and accociates may also have nothing to say to them. They can question her on the stand yet they have filed, I believe, 2 Motions over this.

I also find it unbelievable that Jake does not know who shot who. 2 guns were used to ambush Chris and Gary, 2 sets of footprints are at Chris's house, the shots were from porch and LV, house is small, it would be obvious who shot who and of course they would talk about it together and they reported back to Angie - and Jake would know who drove to Kenny's camper. Again, confusing.

The prosecution sticks to the gag order so......

I assume the pieces will fall into place and all this will be made clearer at trial.

I am hoping the prosecution will make things clearer about who they at least think shot Chris, Gary and Kenny. Would we have to wait for Billy's trial to find out? I believe Billy shot Chris, kinda obvious as he faked the drug meeting with Chris to get in and ambush him, have Chris let his guard down.

I believe Gary was only shot as a witness because he happened to be there, possibly HG too. But why Kenny? Not sure we will get answers but maybe we will find out more about Kenny, I will be very upset if they leave him out like they did at the bond hearing. Kenny's kids at least need to know who shot their dad and why. Maybe the prosecution has talked to them about who they suspect.

I also wonder how they will prove George bought murder kit items and spied on the Rhodens? Him just being at the crime scenes proves aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, and tampering with evidence and conspiracy.

 

[Chelly]

Do you recall which news outlet she's going to report for? She did her last article with the Washington Post, IIRC

ETA: Also feel free to double check what I'm posting about reading online. My eye doc said he thinks I'm ready for cataract surgery. My vision is not bad, but it's not what it used to be.

Sorry, I don't know which MSM is taking her on as freelancer. Clearly it won't be the Cincinnati Enquirer.

Funny, I had cataract surgery in July. Still need reading glasses though.

 

[Seattle1]

The defense wants EW's address but then admits that she might not even want to talk to them at all. Her neighbors and accociates may also have nothing to say to them. They can question her on the stand yet they have filed, I believe, 2 Motions over this.

^^rsbm

The prosecution has the burden of proof so it's no wonder that they have a witness list exceeding 250! To be clear, the length of this list itself does not mean that every witness on the list will be called to testify (the trial would go on for 2 years). However, it's a matter of law that a witness cannot be called and "surprise the court" if they never made the witness list admitted into evidence. The point here about EW is that the defense doesn't know nor has any guarantee that they can question EW on the stand.

In this case, the prosecution has relied on an exception to Discovery Rule 16 that provides for non-disclosure of a witness's identity/address (for good cause). In other words, this means that as of 8/31/22 when Defense filed Motion to Compel #109, they still had no knowledge or guarantee from the Court whether or not EW has been subpoenaed as a prosecution witness and will in fact appear in court.

Although the prosecution has rightfully used the discovery exception for non-disclosure to protect EW for several years, Rule 16 also provides that the non-disclosure exception ends 7 days prior to the trial commencing.

Not only would it be a violation of the defendant's Sixth Amendment Right not to be able to subpoena EW, but It would also be ineffective assistance of counsel for the defense to fail to subpoena a witness to rebut testimony against their client. Seriously, how tragic it would be if GW4 won on appeal over the prosecution withholding EW's address on the heels of his trial?

Pike County murders: Six years later, first trial officially has a jury

Jury selection is underway in the first trial in the Pike County murders case, with jurors scheduled to see the crime scenes later this week and opening statements to happen after Labor Day.

www.wcpo.com

8/29/22

Potential jurors heard about a possible witness list as well: More than 250 people could be called as witnesses in this case, including dozens of state Bureau of Criminal Investigation agents and members of two county dive teams. Not all people on the list will be called during the course of the trial.

[..]

George is the first of the Wagner family members charged in the eight murders to face trial. His brother, Edward "Jake" Wagner, is believed to be at the center of the motive for the murder; He and one of the victims, Hanna Rhoden, had a child together over which there were vicious custody disputes. Jake took a plea deal in April 2021.

Also charged in the murders were George's parents, Angela and George "Billy" Wagner. Angela took a plea deal in September 2021. Billy has maintained a plea of not guilty, though a trial date has not yet been set for him.

 

[justtrish]

So this is interesting, they won't have anyone testify on the stand about Chris and Billy's fight who actually didn't witness it. It would be hearsay for a witness to say they heard about it from someone else.

Makes you wonder if Kenny witnessed it and so that played into them going after him?

We don't know if Jake or Angela told the prosecution about this fight. If the prosecution found out about the fight directly from Jake or Angela being there or Billy telling Jake or Angela, then maybe it will come out on the stand. Unless Billy telling Jake and Angela is considered hearsay and inadmissible.

But if Jake and Angela say they don't know about a fight between Billy and Chris that means the prosecution found out second hand from others not there which is hearsay, then it won't be brought up in court.

Unless, could there actually be a witness who was there?

This is just one of many confusing things coming up about this trial. I find it confusing that Jake says he shot and killed 5 people but then says he also shot a 6th person. It's confusing for Jake to proclaim George shot nobody but then proclaim he doesn't really know who shot who. To not know who shot who means that George could have shot someone.

If the defense trips up Jake and Angela on the stand does that mean they are leading their own client into getting the DP? Jake and Angela have to testify truthfully.

The defense wants EW's address but then admits that she might not even want to talk to them at all. Her neighbors and accociates may also have nothing to say to them. They can question her on the stand yet they have filed, I believe, 2 Motions over this.

I also find it unbelievable that Jake does not know who shot who. 2 guns were used to ambush Chris and Gary, 2 sets of footprints are at Chris's house, the shots were from porch and LV, house is small, it would be obvious who shot who and of course they would talk about it together and they reported back to Angie - and Jake would know who drove to Kenny's camper. Again, confusing.

The prosecution sticks to the gag order so......

I assume the pieces will fall into place and all this will be made clearer at trial.

I am hoping the prosecution will make things clearer about who they at least think shot Chris, Gary and Kenny. Would we have to wait for Billy's trial to find out? I believe Billy shot Chris, kinda obvious as he faked the drug meeting with Chris to get in and ambush him, have Chris let his guard down.

I believe Gary was only shot as a witness because he happened to be there, possibly HG too. But why Kenny? Not sure we will get answers but maybe we will find out more about Kenny, I will be very upset if they leave him out like they did at the bond hearing. Kenny's kids at least need to know who shot their dad and why. Maybe the prosecution has talked to them about who they suspect.

I also wonder how they will prove George bought murder kit items and spied on the Rhodens? Him just being at the crime scenes proves aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, and tampering with evidence and conspiracy.

If this alleged fight took place a few weeks prior to the murders and Chris beat Billy up (again just going on possibilities since nothing official is out there), then why would Chris agree to a meeting, even a drug meeting or whatever it might have been set up as? If I were a smaller guy who had beat up or at least "won" a fight a few weeks prior and then that person wanted to meet up for any reason, I'd think I would say no and definitely not at my house, where I have family living and close by, especially knowing somewhat of the reputation Billy had. Nothing seems right with this, but maybe it just won't. Maybe they fought and that was that so this "meeting" didn't feel like a set up to Chris. If there was a meeting though, why not have your family gone and a few men for back up just in case something was shady about it?

 

[PrairieWind]

^^rsbm

The prosecution has the burden of proof so it's no wonder that they have a witness list exceeding 250! To be clear, the length of this list itself does not mean that every witness on the list will be called to testify (the trial would go on for 2 years). However, it's a matter of law that a witness cannot be called and "surprise the court" if they never made the witness list admitted into evidence. The point here about EW is that the defense doesn't know nor has any guarantee that they can question EW on the stand.

In this case, the prosecution has relied on an exception to Discovery Rule 16 that provides for non-disclosure of a witness's identity/address (for good cause). In other words, this means that as of 8/31/22 when Defense filed Motion to Compel #109, they still had no knowledge or guarantee from the Court whether or not EW has been subpoenaed as a prosecution witness and will in fact appear in court.

Although the prosecution has rightfully used the discovery exception for non-disclosure to protect EW for several years, Rule 16 also provides that the non-disclosure exception ends 7 days prior to the trial commencing.

Not only would it be a violation of the defendant's Sixth Amendment Right not to be able to subpoena EW, but It would also be ineffective assistance of counsel for the defense to fail to subpoena a witness to rebut testimony against their client. Seriously, how tragic it would be if GW4 won on appeal over the prosecution withholding EW's address on the heels of his trial?

Pike County murders: Six years later, first trial officially has a jury

Jury selection is underway in the first trial in the Pike County murders case, with jurors scheduled to see the crime scenes later this week and opening statements to happen after Labor Day.

www.wcpo.com

8/29/22

Potential jurors heard about a possible witness list as well: More than 250 people could be called as witnesses in this case, including dozens of state Bureau of Criminal Investigation agents and members of two county dive teams. Not all people on the list will be called during the course of the trial.

[..]

George is the first of the Wagner family members charged in the eight murders to face trial. His brother, Edward "Jake" Wagner, is believed to be at the center of the motive for the murder; He and one of the victims, Hanna Rhoden, had a child together over which there were vicious custody disputes. Jake took a plea deal in April 2021.

Also charged in the murders were George's parents, Angela and George "Billy" Wagner. Angela took a plea deal in September 2021. Billy has maintained a plea of not guilty, though a trial date has not yet been set for him.

I don't think they are going to have to disclose EW's address. If they call her as a witness, they can cross examine her. If they don't call her, then no harm. If they really want to call her as their own witness, they need to locate her on their own.

 

[ohioexpat63]

Maybe it is my simple-minded, hilljack educational upbringing but Im very skeptical about self-serving statements coming from family members that murdered nursing mothers. Im often wrong so...JMO

 

[altojack]

it would be interesting to know if the mods are aware of a list of media we could follow. Save a lot of time, not that I'd be able to view many papers due to the stupid ruling that excludes the EU. Mind you, I'm in the UK, we left the EU.

Thinking of the fight between Chris and Billy. Was it a week before the murders and did Mr Manley tell a reporter something went on? I can't go back to search right now.

 

[Seattle1]

I don't think they are going to have to disclose EW's address. If they call her as a witness, they can cross examine her. If they don't call her, then no harm. If they really want to call her as their own witness, they need to locate her on their own.

IMO, if they were able to locate her by now, doubt they'd be bothering with this today with all on their plate. Not sure what the prosecution used to first satisfy good cause pursuant to Rule 16 non-disclosure, and seems per the defense motion, they are further relying on case law cited at State v McKelton. As I already mentioned, why open any appeal window? JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

If this alleged fight took place a few weeks prior to the murders and Chris beat Billy up (again just going on possibilities since nothing official is out there), then why would Chris agree to a meeting, even a drug meeting or whatever it might have been set up as? If I were a smaller guy who had beat up or at least "won" a fight a few weeks prior and then that person wanted to meet up for any reason, I'd think I would say no and definitely not at my house, where I have family living and close by, especially knowing somewhat of the reputation Billy had. Nothing seems right with this, but maybe it just won't. Maybe they fought and that was that so this "meeting" didn't feel like a set up to Chris. If there was a meeting though, why not have your family gone and a few men for back up just in case something was shady about it?

I believe Billy did everything he could to convince Chris all was fine between them. I believe he did everything he could to make peace, even apologize etc... Then letting Chris know that to cement the peace he wants to share a lucrative drug deal with him. Let by bygones be bygones.

In other words Billy put on an act that everything was forgiven and fine between them.

Since there was supposedly a history of friendship between them, it gave Chris a point of reference to look back on. Billy could have drawn from their past friendship. Etc.....

Chris had no clue that Billy was planning to ambush him. Chris thought Billy was coming alone. Perhaps Billy felt safe having Gary there also. With Gary it was 2 against 1.

Also, Billy wasn't asking Chris to meet him somewhere which is more suspicious, Chris would feel safer in his own house.

 

[altojack]

I recollect someone on this thread saying Chris and Billy had had fall outs before but soon made up due to the length of their friendship.

 

[Betty P]

Since JW and GW4 drove a truck over the road, it's possible they were out of town when that fight occurred. JMO if either of them had been there, they would have jumped in and helped their dad and the outcome wouldn't have been so much in CRSRs favor since it would have been 2 or 3 against 1. Just my thoughts

Agree. We know the Wagners were psycho killers who like to sneak up on their victims. Had Jake and GW4 been at the fight, they probably would have joined in.

I'm thinking it might have been Leonard Manley. He may have given a statement to LE about seeing the fight. Motion 96 was filed on June 21, 2022. Len passed away on December 12, 2021.

Leonard E. Manley | People's Defender

Leonard E Manley, 70 years of age, of Peebles, passed away on Sunday, December 12, 2021, at his residence. Leonard was born on September 5, 1951, in Peebles, Ohio, the son of the late James and Dessie…

www.peoplesdefender.com

Prosecution probably argued their interview, video, etc. with Len would suffice, but defense saw an opportunity to eliminate this evidence from the trial. Rules of evidence require that a witness be available for cross-examination.

Yes, Kenneth might have been there, too. Also possibly other Rhoden family members who were later murdered by the Wagners.

All JMO ICBW

 

[Betty P]

I recollect someone on this thread saying Chris and Billy had had fall outs before but soon made up due to the length of their friendship.

If it was someone from the Wagner family saying it, I would disregard it. I've never believed anything any of them have said about prior relationships between Chris & Billy or any of the family.

Remember what Charlie Reader said: "All the lies they told us."

 

[Seattle1]

O/T -- I'm recalling the Rhoden family matriarch doing her best to attend court over the years. Does anybody know if she's still living?