OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #75

[Myland]

Jmo but I am questioning whether Angela was at home that night. I find it hard to believe that trusted those three to do it. TC testified Angela was hard to please either made you redo something or Angela would redo it herself. It makes more sense she was there. Jmo

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I'm just curious after looking up that stuff if you might know...Is a confessed (not convicted) killer's testimony to a conspiracy with others, in the same crimes he confessed to, like an automatic stipulation that the conspiracy is a fact in the eyes of the law? Would that carry the absolute evidentiary weigh of a stipulation?

So can the prosecution treat JW's testimony like a stipulation and the judge would then instruct the jury to give it it's due weight...because it's a done deal in the eyes of the law?

JW confessed for his life and his family, not for a any reduced prison term. The defensed can't really said, oh he got a deal so you've got to be cautious and you can't really believe what he says it true...right? He confessed only to live and save his family member's lives, nothing more.

The problem I see is Jake cannot confess for his family, only for himself.

If what you say carried weight then a man who gets busted for murder can always confess to the crime and say his ex wife who he hates was part of it, even if she wasn't. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law does not allow for someone to be sent to jail on another persons confession I would think.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Didn't Jake say he shot 5?

Shot and killed 5 but then also shot a 6th. Some think he shot Chris Rhoden in the arm from outside. In other words, not necessarily a "kill" shot according to autopsy. The other shots to chest, torso, and head killed him.

The arm wound could have made him bleed out and die without help though. We are guessing that Jake shot Chris's arm, only thing that makes sense.

George Wagner Documents | PDF

George Wagner Documents

www.scribd.com

Thus, the State continues to hold the death penalty over George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a 6th victim.

Jake Wagner, 28 pleaded guilty in April to eight counts of aggravated murder.

He admitted to killing five members of the Rhoden family, shooting a sixth, and spying on the family before the killings, tampering with evidence, and obstructing the years-long search for the killers.

Eldest Wagner son didn’t kill anyone in Pike County massacre: court docs

The slayings are considered the state’s biggest and most complex homicide investigation to date

www.fox19.com

 

[RAISINISBACK]

The price I gave came from a family owned business that raises cattle on their farms and owns the slaughterhouse.

The price I gave was from the ranchers and LEO around here who say the cattle are stolen, taken to Mexico, traded to the cartels for drugs, then those drugs are brought back to the USA and sold on the street. They say about 20 to 25 head of prime Angus steers gets the cattle rustlers enough drugs to carry around a 100,00.00 street value in the USA.

But my knowledge is second hand from the ranchers and LEO around here and since I do not own cattle, trade cattle for drugs in Mexico or sell drugs on the street I will bow to your greater knowledge of how many cattle can be traded to drug cartels for a street value of 100,00.00 worth of fentanyl, heroin and cocaine.

JMO

 

[Myland]

Jmo Jake may not have been as afraid of death penalty itself. He may have been more afraid of being alone for years and years and only getting out of his cell for a small amount of time. I don’t think Jake could handle being alone. He has a lot more privileges with life sentence.

 

[Antimony]

How would the W's view a son who had participated in the planning, The preparation and actually gone along to the scenes of the crime and then backed out of the deal when he was needed the most? Everything he did from that point forward would be suspect. He could not be counted to keep his mouth shut and not rat out the family. None of this has happened.
GWIV is toeing the line. Taking it like a man (so far). Jake was the one to rat out the family.
I think George might have been made to shoot someone, even if that someone were already dead. Just to justify his Manhood to the family.
MOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I'm just curious after looking up that stuff if you might know...Is a confessed (not convicted) killer's testimony to a conspiracy with others, in the same crimes he confessed to, like an automatic stipulation that the conspiracy is a fact in the eyes of the law? Would that carry the absolute evidentiary weigh of a stipulation?

So can the prosecution treat JW's testimony like a stipulation and the judge would then instruct the jury to give it it's due weight...because it's a done deal in the eyes of the law?

JW confessed for his life and his family, not for a any reduced prison term. The defensed can't really said, oh he got a deal so you've got to be cautious and you can't really believe what he says it true...right? He confessed only to live and save his family member's lives, nothing more.

I don't know (I am not a lawyer) but I don't think so. I agree with Cool Cats point above. A "stipulation" is something everyone agrees on. That is not the case with Jake's testimony because the defense will try to get around that damning testimony somehow.

Here's an example. Three men rob a bank. Two get caught in the bank. The getaway driver "gets away."
Robber 1 says he's not guilty and lawyers up.
Robber 2 confesses and tells about the planning and the robbery. He confesses to his part in it and identifies the missing 3rd getaway driver. He gets 10 years in state prison with a chance of parole.
Getaway driver is arrested and charged but pleads not guilty.
Robber 1 goes to trial. Robber 2 testifies against him. He's just a witness as to the planning, the plan and the robbery, including testifying against his own involvement. The prosecutor presents other evidence from cell phones, etc. He's found guilty and gets 20 years, no parole.
Getaway driver goes to trial. Robber 2 testifies against him He gets 15 years, chance of parole because he didn't carry a gun into a bank.

Crime TV shows, both reality and fiction always include the interrogators reminding individuals who participate in joint crimes and conspiracy that the first person who flips gets the best deal. Robber 2 gets the best deal he could because he helped the police and prosecutors. In our case, Jake got the best deal because LWOP in a death penalty case for 5 murders he did himself is way better than the death penalty. And he got that form of lenience (if you will) for the whole family because he confessed to the crimes and told about the planning, the execution and the coverup, featuring his own participation but naming what others did too. Jake did get a deal but LWOP for a man that young? That's no sweetheart deal. He will die in prison. He probably will never see his daughter again. The defense can argue what it likes but both Jake and Angela have serious sentences that essentially end their lives out in the free world.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

But JW has also...I guess "accused" is the right word?...GW and BW of participation in the crimes he confessed to freely.

But if JW and AW confess to a crime and accuse BW and GW of the same crime, what happens if both BW and GW deny it and accuse AW and JW of acting alone with out their participation? It then becomes a tie. Maybe they can vote on it around the kitchen table? lol

JMO

 

[Myland]

I am wondering when Jake and Angela was offered the plea deal was it prosecutors presented to their attorneys and it was negotiated back and forth thru attorney prior to speaking face to face with Jake and Angela at first with the final story? Or did prosecutors present it to Jake or Angela with their attorney sitting there and prosecutors saying that is not enough you have to give us more.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Jake says that he doesn't know who shot who yet knows George didn't shoot. Figure that one out. Even the prosecution says they don't know who shot who.

Except for the 6 Jake shot.

Jake says that he doesn't know who shot who yet knows George didn't shoot. Figure that one out

BBM

Could be CC Jake doesn't know who George shot because George wasn't there.

I think we should consider that Jake may be covering for Angie. This could have been something they all cooked up in AK because they knew George stayed home and Angie went and therefore there was never any evidence against George, so he walks. Who knows with this family?

But more and more, hearing all this stuff about Angie, having guns, getting guns, threatening to kill people with guns, spying on her son's ex's, hacking ect makes me think it is more likely she was there instead of George.

One reason is AC saying in her opening statement that was posted a few pages back that she told Billy that her and Billy should have just handled this themselves and left the boys out of it.

That's kind of a hard nosed statement for a sweet little old grandma. lol

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I am wondering when Jake and Angela was offered the plea deal was it prosecutors presented to their attorneys and it was negotiated back and forth thru attorney prior to speaking face to face with Jake and Angela at first with the final story? Or did prosecutors present it to Jake or Angela with their attorney sitting there and prosecutors saying that is not enough you have to give us more.

Or give us George in exchange for your mama getting 30 years?

JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

BBM

. It is not normal or typical or healthy for the mother to dictate the sons' sex lives or to insist that a new baby sleep with the grandparents. It's not normal for the family of origin (in this case, Angela, Jake, George and Billy, when he's present) to make decisions that the wives/partners of the sons are not allowed to be part of. threatening their wife with a gun.

I would like to point out that until EW testifies we only have Tabitha's testimony to any of this. Tabitha reversed so much of her testimony on cross examination that I did not find her to be a credible witness on most things. I do believe she was sexually abused as a child since she confirmed on cross that is why George did not want his son or her around her family.

But I will say I find it extremely hard believe that Angie allowed Tabitha aged 11 and George aged 13 to sleep together for a year but yet wait until they are married and aged 19 and 22 to suddenly have this "sex" talk with them both. If the order were reversed and T&G were 11 and 13 I might believe Angie had this "sex" talk with them both.

But from that point of view, if Tabitha and George were aged 11 and 13 then that "sex" talk dictating whether they could have sex or give BJ's in her house would not seem unusual at all. In fact I might have given my son that same talk if he was 13 and I caught him in bed with an 11 year old girl. In a matter of fact, I would have probably said a whole lot more. I am sure most mothers of 13 year old boys on here would have told them not to be having sex or getting BJ's at that age.

As for infant GK's sleeping with GP's I have no personal knowledge of, since I think it would be very dangerous for any adult to sleep in the bed with an infant child. But I would think it would not be unusual if the home were crowded.

We, as of this time, have only testimony from Tabitha that Angie threatened to get a gun. For that matter until we get other testimony, I am considering, but waiting on corroboration from other witnesses on the "voting" matter.

It was very obvious that Tabitha hated Angie and blamed her for the breakup of her and George's marriage. She also openly admitted she still loved George and believed had they worked things out that night they would still be married. I would think, watching that it would be taken into account in her testimony. Tabitha didn't have much bad to say about George but she slung a dump truck load of dirt on Angie.

JMO

I think she said she still had feelings for George. That seems fairly common for people to still "love" people, even though they don't deserve it.

I believed Tabitha. She testified in public and had to admit to a lot of things she would normally not talk about in public--sexual abuse when she was a child, a sexual relationship with a much older man (also in my view abuse, but MOO), and so on. She was dignified even when challenged on cross.The text messages between her and Hanna and her mother and Hanna bolster her claims about how Wagners handled custody, as does the calendars kept by Angela documenting any little thing Hanna did that could be brought up in court. But I think Jake and Angela will cover a lot of this ground, however reluctantly. Something made both of them believe that a deal was in their best interests. The ammunition and casings, the guns, the murder truck--all of that is still to come.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Or give us George in exchange for your mama getting 30 years?

JMO

I do think if that was the deal we would have to know about that.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

The problem I see is Jake cannot confess for his family, only for himself.

If what you say carried weight then a man who gets busted for murder can always confess to the crime and say his ex wife who he hates was part of it, even if she wasn't. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law does not allow for someone to be sent to jail on another persons confession I would think.

JMO

He can, though, testify against them, telling the same story.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

True, but will G3 go along with that? The two who have confessed, as far as we know, have broken the family table meeting code. Is JW lying? Is AW lying? You can see that they wanted at least 50/50 custody. Was AW there and G4 was home with the kids? If the firearm they stated, belonged to G4 and he couldn't handle it, that seems odd. Not so much if AW was there attempting to shoot it and it want stray, and JW had to take over. She sure was obsessed with S, and G3, I feel, was obsessed with a biz he saw GR entering, instead of him. Just pondering, G3 does not have to testify at all though. Probably be in his best interest that he not. Edit: Based on his recorded interview.

Was AW there and G4 was home with the kids? If the firearm they stated, belonged to G4 and he couldn't handle it, that seems odd
BBM
I could see that. Jake said George refused outright to go and tried to talk them out of it. Did Angie go instead with George's 30 caliber rifle and not be able to handle it so Jake sticks his pistol in his waistband and takes it from her? Actually that is more believable than a big guy like George not being able to handle the gun so Jake had to take it from him.

HMMM.... going to have to give that some more thought.

JMO

 

[LMDlong]

Excellent question! I am not a lawyer and I would love to know the answer to this.

From the stipulations mentioned in GWIV’s trial , I thought it was something presented that the state and defense agreed on . I too would Like to know the answer.

 

[Cool Cats]

But if JW and AW confess to a crime and accuse BW and GW of the same crime, what happens if both BW and GW deny it and accuse AW and JW of acting alone with out their participation? It then becomes a tie. Maybe they can vote on it around the kitchen table? lol

JMO

First off, George is already denying his involvement regardless of what Jake or Angie say. George's attorneys are already saying George knew nothing about it. Billy would deny it too if he goes to trial.

What happens? What happens is who the jury finds credible and that includes the totality of the evidence presented. Jake and Angela never said George did not participate and wasn't at the crime scenes yet they could have stuck to that story if they had had years to practice telling it that way.

They are giving so much testimony that lines up with BCI interviews, ballistic evidence, evidence that was purchased including parts to make silencers and a murder truck being purchased and modified, evidence that was forged, BCI evidence recorded on phones and texts and in the truck, evidence that was hidden at FWF.....ETC....

So much evidence that lines up with the evidence that BCI recovered plus witness and expert witness testimony ETC....

The totality of all this evidence and testimony makes it that I just don't find it reasonable that all 12 jurors will simply not believe a word of Angela's and Jake's testimony. I believe they will believe enough of their testimony along with other presented evidence, to find George guilty of murders, burglaries, tampering with evidence, murder conspiracy and signing fake custody documents.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

My guess, Jake's wife.

As for important papers missing from Billy, my guess, Mommy pays from her bank accounts. There is a Wagner Motion that lists many of FW's bank accounts.

She spent a lot ordering things for her kid's on line, gave Billy a trust account, paid for his attorneys apparently from the past, gave him FWF employment, let him leave Angela and live at FWF etc....

But weren't those ledgers of bills paid left behind in the trailers when they went to AK? Jake didn't get married until they moved up there so how would Angie know to get his wife a passport before they even left to go?

Was his marriage arranged before they left in some kind of agreement with EW's parents? No proof, just wondering.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Jmo but I am questioning whether Angela was at home that night. I find it hard to believe that trusted those three to do it. TC testified Angela was hard to please either made you redo something or Angela would redo it herself. It makes more sense she was there. Jmo

Once again a great point. Tabitha did testify that Angie would make you do something over or do it herself if she wasn't happy with the job you did. That's why I think she was along for the ride. That and @rsd1200's point that the rifle was George's gun and he should have been able to handle it. But Angie may not have been able to handle it and that may be why Jake had to take it and shoot it himself.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

But weren't those ledgers of bills paid left behind in the trailers when they went to AK? Jake didn't get married until they moved up there so how would Angie know to get his wife a passport before they even left to go?

Was his marriage arranged before they left in some kind of agreement with EW's parents? No proof, just wondering.

JMO

Good point. Jake didn't get with Elizabeth until AK so if Angela was figuring out the passport prices before June 2017, then it would have to be for somebody other than Elizabeth. There are any number of friends and relatives and business partners they could have thought about driving to AK with. FW no way. She was taking care of her sick husband before the Wagner's moved up there. He passed in August 2017. Wagner's arrived June 2017. Wedding application taken out January 2018.