OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #76

[justtrish]

Why is Prosecutor changing her statement about Jake testifying? In opening statement it was when you hear Jake testify and now When and if. Why is the if in there at all?

I don't think she's changing her statement. She was arguing for this evidence specifically and saying that since Jake hasn't taken the stand and he's a co conspirator, they can't introduce this video to try to discredit his testimony before he even takes the stand. She said they can cross examine him when and if he takes the stand. I think that is a reasonable statement given that he has agreed to testify, she plans to call him to testify, but he can still refuse. It would mean his deal is null and void, but he can refuse so saying when and if makes sense to me.

 

[Betty P]

FW has property with mobile homes on them she sells (leases??). Wonder why mother didn't do business with son. I'm sure she had a few reasons.
I remember she sold, foreclosed, rinse, repeat.

Her land contracts. Cincinnati Enquirer did an article about that, IIRC.

Matriarch of Wagner family accused in Pike County massacre spent decades building wealth

Fredericka Wagner is accused in attempted cover-up of the Rhoden family massacre in Pike County.

www.cincinnati.com

She had over 100 land contracts.

More than 100 land contracts​

Those who rented or attempted to purchase land from Fredericka Wagner described her as driven by one thing: money.

Fredericka Wagner's properties – listed under her name, a trust bearing her name or under her real estate company – are worth more than $4 million and span 1,767 acres, according to Pike County Auditor’s Office records.

Over decades, she and her late husband, George "Bob" Wagner, entered into at least 132 land installment contracts in an apparent attempt to sell off smaller portions of their land. The contracts allowed the Wagners to retain deeds on the land as buyers attempted to pay off their principal and interest.

Some contracts included interest rates of 10 percent or higher, including at least three above 13 percent.
If buyers made all their payments, they’d eventually become owners of the land.

It rarely played out that way.

Twelve contracts were satisfied.

Nearly 80 percent were ultimately terminated without a corresponding deed transfer, indicating the land returned to Wagner possession.

 

[Betty P]

She didn’t say he wasn’t she just used the word if jmo

True, I think I heard that. Not sure it means he won't, though.

 

[Betty P]

What I found interesting in connection to AC's argument this was an enmeshed family is Angie telling Billy she wanted the boys to move out into their own houses. Also Billy refusing to come back until Jake and George were moved out. Angie asking Billy if he had found them a house yet so she could move in with him so it would be only Billy and Angie living together alone.

Even "enmeshed families" have disagreements. It's part of the dysfunctional dynamic. After this disagreement, what happened? They all pooled their money, sold the farm and moved to AK to live together in the same house. They made all those decisions as a team and all went together.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Those brief phone convos gave good insight into Wagner family dynamics. Seems to be much discord within that tight knit group

Enmeshment creates discord. The people in the family don't have normal boundaries, can't easily seek or work for what they want personally. The boundary between parent and child is compromised. On one hand the[adult] child is expected to take on roles normally reserved for the partner or for the disordered parent; on the other, the parent infantilizes the [adult] child and does not support separation and individuation. Lots of conflict comes from the struggle over control over the kids' lives. My mother and my younger sibling were enmeshed. They did not live together but he couldn't make a move without her input.

 

[Cool Cats]

With all this dysfunction and chaos going on in this family in 2016 like Billy not wanting to live with the boys, it's sure interesting that all of them up and moved together in May 2017. Suddenly Billy is good to go on living with the boys, good to go on moving 4,000 miles away from everything they knew. Can't be the pressure was on them then because it doesn't seem like George was even interviewed yet and they had no search warrants on their houses yet, nothing from the outside seemed to be pointing to them so why the sudden change of heart and one big happy family moved to Alaska, where they lived together.

5/21/17 George 4 interviewed (JW Discovery)

5/12/17 Peterson Rd searches (articles)
5/13/17 Flying W searches (2BPV's found)
5/13/17 Interview Angela (JW Discovery)
5/16/17 Interview Angela (JW Discovery)
5/17/17 Jake interviewed (JW Discovery)
5/21/17 Jake interviewed (JW Discovery)
5/21/17 George 4 interviewed (JW Discovery)
5/21/17 Angela interviews (JW Discovery)
5/21/17 Billy interviewed (JW Discovery)
6/8/17 Days Inn Trash Pull (AW Discovery)
June 9, 2017 - BCI has a Warrant and starts recording the Wagner's. They hear and/or read Chris Graves' communication with them.
Wednesday June 21, 2017 - MSM puts out the DeWine laser focus article.
6/23/17 (Friday) Conklin Neighbor talks to Billy & Jake and states they arrived in 2 vehicles (article)
7/2017 3 possible search warrants in Montana (1 not executed - AW Discovery)
July 7, 2017 - Another 30 day extension granted, on the Warrant to record the Wagners.

 

[LMDlong]

Does anyone remember the number and letter of the case text regarding the recording from today

Never mind found it .

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Even "enmeshed families" have disagreements. It's part of the dysfunctional dynamic. After this disagreement, what happened? They all pooled their money, sold the farm and moved to AK to live together in the same house. They made all those decisions as a team and all went together.

And enmeshment doesn't require the kids to live with the parents. I came from an enmeshed family. I got married too young (21) to get out. My brother was right behind me. And still my mother's unhappiness, her ideas about our lives, what she needed, etc. was more important than our own lives. What got me out of that was therapy--over 30 years of it.

 

[Cool Cats]

FW has property with mobile homes on them she sells (leases??). Wonder why mother didn't do business with son. I'm sure she had a few reasons.
I remember she sold, foreclosed, rinse, repeat.

She let them live in her Bethal Hill Rd. trailer. I thought she owned it. She let Billy work for her.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Jmo kinda blows up the state theory of a tight knit family almost cult like. Billy couldn’t stand the little Bxxxx. And Jake wanted George to see if he could get the R to help him, who I took as Billy. State maybe shouldn’t have shown that conversation. And if that was the best of the conversation they had to prove conspiracy they may have problems. But of course is just foundation I guess.

There's a difference between a "close-knit family" and an enmeshed one: "In an enmeshed family, there are no boundaries between the family members. Instead of the strong bonds that signal a well-functioning family unit, family members are fused together by unhealthy emotions." That doesn't mean the people in the family are happy or don't fight with each other.They don't even have to live with each other. The indicator is that there are no boundariess--where the parents' lives end and the child's life begins. In a healthy family, separate and individuation happens in late adolescence and the early 20s. See, for example, that Hanna Rhoden and her kids were living with Dana but she was planning to move out to have a home with her new boyfriend. She was close to her mother but not enmeshed.
Edited to add the source: Enmeshed Family: What It Is and Its Impacts

 

[LMDlong]

I don't think she's changing her statement. She was arguing for this evidence specifically and saying that since Jake hasn't taken the stand and he's a co conspirator, they can't introduce this video to try to discredit his testimony before he even takes the stand. She said they can cross examine him when and if he takes the stand. I think that is a reasonable statement given that he has agreed to testify, she plans to call him to testify, but he can still refuse. It would mean his deal is null and void, but he can refuse so saying when and if makes sense to me.

From what I found under Ohio case law Rule 801 the defense cannot challenge JW statements unless he is present to be crossed.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Jmo they couldn’t even live together

And yet they did.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Yet they were talking in front of a female witness about incriminating things. And talking at Fred's.

Why not just have all normal conversations like your innocent? To be scared to talk shows guilt.

I've said it before and will say it again, the Wagner's learned about committing murder through shows like CSI in my opinion because...

They were extra careful about the crime scenes, not being seen at the crime scenes, killing witnesses, not bringing their phones, getting rid of evidence, tampering with the crime scenes, taking down security cameras, buying a truck for that night, using suppressors, phone jammers, sneaking around with people in bed, leaving no fingerprints or DNA. Getting past dogs and getting into the homes. On and on.....

But I think what happened and why they got caught and the other 2 will get caught, is because they did not plan enough about the before and after. They were so busy not to leave evidence at the scenes or to be seen that night that what they did before and after the crimes is sinking them. They didn't think enough about the before and after.

Such as:

Many Murder Kit purchases easy to trace, running to AK, admitting they can't talk freely, gun lists and gun purchases, custody fights, fake custody documents, threats to Hanna, the stuff on Jake's phone and keeping his phone, lying to BCI, lying to Chris Graves, incriminating statements, silencer in the cistern, casings on their property, keeping Angela's laptop with - gun list, plus TX downloaded custody documents with the wrong dates plus many screenshots of hacked Facebook conversations, all on Angela's laptop.

Hacking into Facebook accounts, planning to accuse Tabby of abandonment, abusing Jake's EX and threatening to kill her family, the 4 phones together, using Jake's address and rewards card, leaving custody documents and receipt for shoes, buying shoes at the store with the most security, the photo of Angie, Jake, George and kids in truck in Walmart parking lot when Angie bought the shoes......

The list goes on and on......I want to add, they seemed to forget murder has no statue of limitations and that there is this thing called BCI, not just local pike county LE. They thought the local LE would consider it unsolvable, Cartel drug related etc....and then stop investing it, considering it's a cold case.

They didn't bank on 8 murders down in very rual Pike County -- looking like they could be related to marijuana and drugs whatever -- as bringing in so much attention. Not just from LE and the Attorney General but also from a ton of social media. They saw the investigation wasn't going away and that's probably why they sold the Peterson Rd. farm and got passports.

Dave Cullen, the author of the definitive book on the Columbine massacre, notes in his book that prior to that attack, school shooters planned right up to the point where the shooting starts but had no idea what would happen after that. I think you are right on this.

 

[Myland]

There's a difference between a "close-knit family" and an enmeshed one: "In an enmeshed family, there are no boundaries between the family members. Instead of the strong bonds that signal a well-functioning family unit, family members are fused together by unhealthy emotions." That doesn't mean the people in the family are happy or don't fight with each other.They don't even have to live with each other. The indicator is that there are no boundariess--where the parents' lives end and the child's life begins. In a healthy family, separate and individuation happens in late adolescence and the early 20s. See, for example, that Hanna Rhoden and her kids were living with Dana but she was planning to move out to have a home with her new boyfriend. She was close to her mother but not enmeshed.

Jmo I have to disagree Billy had a boundary of not living with them. He couldn’t take it. It sounded like their has been some pretty big disagreements. I would have like to seen the other conversation between Billy and Angela. Actually I would like to see the conversations in April 2016. Billy went to Alaska to be with Angela not those boys in my opinion. Remember Happy Wife jmo

 

[Cool Cats]

MSN

After a few calls from Billy Wagner’s son, George IV, on the morning of the murders, Forney said several entries stood out to her.

“The last outgoing call from this device that night of April 21st was to Christopher Rhoden Sr.,” she said Wednesday.

It was just before 6 p.m. said Forney and Billy Wagner’s cell phone put him in the area of his mother’s Flying W Farm.

“And then we have a series of four incoming calls during 10:22 p.m. and ending at 10:55 p.m. from Chris Sr. that all got routed to voice mail,” Forney explained. “The last three indicated routed to voice mail.”

Prosecutors say Chris Sr. and his cousin, Gary, were killed just after 11 p.m. and claim Billy Wagner was using a phone registered to Angela Wagners’ brother, Dennis Carter.

John Parker, attorney for George IV: “You don’t know if Carter ever utilized that phone or not.

Forney: “We were never able to identify a Carter.”

Another BCI agent, Julia Eveslage, looked at the cell phone history of Angela Wagner.

Eveslage said they found Google search history for homes for sale in Alaska.
Eveslage says Angela’s cell phone activity showed several disturbing activities.

“There are first searches on Facebook for Hanna May Rhoden photos,” the BCI agent explained.
Eveslage says Angela was also very interested in the Pike County Massacre three days after the murders.

“On April 27, there was a Facebook search ‘Rhoden family massacre,’ there were reading of comments from the search as well as ‘Rhoden family shootings,’” Eveslage explained to the jury.

Pike County murder trial: Texts highlight Wagner family dynamic, purchases for possible silencer

On Wednesday, witnesses presented cell phone data, including text messages between members of the Wagner family, and investigators set the scene for the Wagners' return from Alaska

www.wcpo.com

Pike County Trial: Ski masks, brass catcher, bug detector found in Wagner trucks, trailers

George Wagner IV's brother and mother are expected to testify against him later this month

www.fox19.com

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I don't know whether I should post these since @Chelly has been posting individual tweets - but here it goes anyway....

James Pilcher
@jamespilcher
·
49m
Parker goes at Eveslage on a different text string - between Billy and Jake. Tries to get her to say it was directly related to murders, but she wants to say it is about family dynamics

On redirect - Canepa points out the family left for Alaska when Ed Carter was sick and dying and that no one, even George came back for the funeral. Everslage also says the messages with Billy and Jake was different because Billy says he was proud of his son.

The grandfather who got robbed is on the Carter side - Angela's father.



Correction - BCI's Ryan Scheiderer returns to stand.

BCI plan was to intercept the Wagners at the Canadian border on the way back from their scouting trip. Had ping orders on their phones in real time - only when they called or got texts. Not content.

Scheiderer had special training to apply for intercept warrant which allows them to listen in to phone calls. Huge legal process.

Also got a wiretap warrant to put in their Suburban Yukon. This is June 2017 All four were in the same vehicle along with Sophia and Bulvine. Were planning to intecept them in North Dakota

Had individual interview folders made up with records etc. They flew up to North Dakota and Air Force went with them. Big team including special prosecutors etc.

Once got there and got cell phone service, found out the Wagners planned to come back via Sweetgrass Montana. So they flew there as soon as they could

"We scrambled" ... had to coordinate on the fly with Montana officials over the weekend. Also altered wiretap arrangements to include body wire.

Each Wagner was to get two separate BCI agents for interviews. They were treated as suspects "the gig was up at that point"

Each person notified as to their Miranda rights against self-incrimination.

And under Ohio law, agents are required to record all interviews with suspects in serious crimes (rape, aggravated murder) .

After those interviews, they were released. Billy released first, then Angela, then George and his son Bulvine, then Jake and his daughter Sophia .

Border patrol seized some items from the SUV - laptop and ipad. This was when the listening devices were being installed

Not getting into what the interviews turned up at this point. But at this point all four phones being tapped as well as listening devices in the vehicle.

Now moving onto the burned up item found in fire pit at Wagner house at Peterson Road.

BCI bought an indentical unit to the one found on the receipt they got from the search warrant. And it appears to be same make and model of the one found in burn pit.

Room A of the Flying W where all the weapons were found was Robin Wagner's bedroom - she's Billy Wagner's sister.

Parker on cross - got Scheiderer to admit they couldn't get anything on wiretap of the SUV - the quality of the audio was unusable.

Also tried to videotape interview with body worn camera, but he turned it off by accident instead of turning it on.

Scheiderer says Jake lied in interview at the border, as did Angela. Asked about Billy and they approach the judge's bench as prosecution objects.



link: https://twitter.com/jamespilcher

The more info, the better. Thanks for all you do.

 

[sunshineray]

I'm going to listen again and try to make sense of it. It made somewhat sense as she was arguing it, but I feel it had something to do with the conspiracy part not in general you can't use these, but because this is a case involving conspiracy and multiple defendants, it can't be used to try to show one is more guilty than another or less guilty than another. Basically the defense wants to play Jake's and it will make Jake look bad right now. The prosecution can't play George's in order to show George lied too. In a conspiracy I think if one person has any part big or small they are just as liable as the one with the most parts.

With all these caveats it's like the prosecution's hands are being tied to use a man's own words against him...because he has the right to remain silent? Did they Mirandize the 4 W's before their interviews? Would they of had to before they were interviewed because they were "detained" (I would call it "arresting" their free movement myself but know not the legal distinction between those two words in relation to undeclared POI's)?

 

[sunshineray]

Why is Prosecutor changing her statement about Jake testifying? In opening statement it was when you hear Jake testify and now When and if. Why is the if in there at all?

Only thing I can think of is just to keep the defense guessing. That "if" bothered me too.

 

[sunshineray]

Really? Jake has to testify. Did Canepa change the direction of her case?

Jake testifying is a mandatory part of his plea. Obviously I missed too much important testimony today.

She said, "...if and when" JW testifies. I was kind of stunned by that myself...the "if".

 

[pittsburghgirl]

This is crazy...defense gets to redirect but the prosecution can follow up after that until tge morning.

Am I understand this right, JW's audio interview at MT border crossing may be considered hearsay...until and when JW testifies?

It's direct evidence--a recording of what Jake said about issues that he has first-hand knowledge of. It can either be a truth or a lie but we know who said it and what he said.

Here's an example of hearsay: Person A tells her boss that Person B took an extra hour at lunch. Then Boss tells Big Boss Person B took at extra hour. That's hearsay because the Boss doesn't have first-hand knowledge.