OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #78

[CIA Team Member]

I can understand this way of thinking about it all. Someone in a previous thread not too long ago posted about enmeshed families and how often it's chaos and constant fighting, but ultimately it's them against the outside world. We do see that theme here and again I don't see any attempt on George's part to separate from that. The chaos is likely all they ever knew, but when it came down to it, they stuck together. Billy was still involved in their lives even not living there. They all seemed equally concerned and focused on the children and keeping anyone and everyone they deemed bad away.

This is how fundamentalists think:
Don't read books, don't watch TV, only believe what "I" tell you to believe, don't talk to anyone outside "the family," and don't bring around any newcomers unless they're like-minded, etc., etc.
JMO

 

[joe jones]

I don't think there is any evidence that AW was at the scenes. Testimony given so far shows her more as a puppet master. Directing from the back. She gets others to do her dirty work. There is evidence to show that GW4 and BW were at the scenes however.

what evidence, shoe prints for GW possibly, JW has to say he wore them, and for BW what evidence I must have missed it, IMO

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

While I would love to know what exactly happened the night of the murders and how these people came to decide they had the right to kill anyone who was present that night, it doesn't matter to me if Angela was there or not. She's the Charlie Manson figure in this conspiracy, creating the cult-like environment and twisted thinking that sent the others to do her dirty work. Given her age and the stress of prison, I suspect 30 years is a life sentence for her. But what probably pains her most is that the grandchildren are out of her control and with their mothers' families, and in Bulvine's case, his actual mother.

It's been proven over and over in this trial that the number one thing Angela cared about was her grandbabies. There's no way she left them that night. There's no way she took them and drove the getaway car. She was probably baking cookies and telling them an extra bedtime story because she was as happy that evening as she'll ever be. She had her baby chicks under her wing and she'd sent her personal army out to do battle.

All my opinion.

 

[justtrish]

I don't think there is any evidence that AW was at the scenes. Testimony given so far shows her more as a puppet master. Directing from the back. She gets others to do her dirty work. There is evidence to show that GW4 and BW were at the scenes however.

I agree.

I think we see George and Jake signing those documents because they were both going to be in harms way that night and it was a safety net to ensure Angela got the kids. He main focus was not murdering anyone. If everyone would have left her and the grandkids alone to do what she wanted, there would be no murder plot. I don't think her end goal was killing people, her end goal was having her grandchildren in her care whatever that took, even the possibility of one of her sons being killed or injured that night. She still would have control of Sophia and Bulvine.

All the talking and planning before this was not plans to murder people, it was plans on how to get Sophia and those discussions included court. Ultimately the decision was made that Jake would not be likely to get sole custody and something else had to be done... talks of turning Chris Sr. in for drugs, etc.. that was ruled out so it turned to murder. I don't think Angela would have wanted anyone murdered if she felt she could get the kids some other way.
I think Angela would have wanted to keep clean hands in all of it so if anyone did get caught that night she still had what she wanted and that was those 2 grandbabies.

 

[rsd1200]

Turbulent morning/day. Of course. I'm just now getting to the first break, on BethA's testimony. O.O What an ordeal. I noticed her hands trembled at times. She may have been naive but she knew to get out of that house. Cannot get over the "friend" who said to call him any time if she needed help. Then; Calm down little lady, I'm sure he's only joking. (What a great friend!) She's fortunate to be alive, jm2.

 

[dgfred]

Goodness. If they did have a bugging detector that thing might have exploded. lol

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I am just flabbergasted that you don't think it matters, that AW could have been the one murdering innocent people as they slept, IMO

What I'm saying is that she in fact DID murder those people, just as Charles Manson murdered those he sent his "family" to kill. She is 100% responsible whether she pulled a trigger or not.

 

[CIA Team Member]

I hold a completely different viewpoint, if somebodies' testimony has been bought then I don't think they are telling the truth, they are telling a version of the truth, IMO. I can quite easily see AW doing some of the murders the longer this trial has gone on, or even BW not even being there, thus far a month in nobody has been placed at the scene by the evidence, not even GW

and if I am expected to solely take JW word on who did what at the crime scenes then for me the state will not have proven their case,

who knows how much longer the state's case will be before we get to JW and AW,

I try to remember the jurors have little to no information on this case. We know much more than will be presented in this trial. We all came here biased, in one way or another. So, with that thinking I went into this trial trying to think that way. Personally, just my useless 2 cents here, prosecution has not convinced me George participated. But I KNOW he was involved because I/we know so much more than the jurors will ever know. Of course we want them convicted. I'm waiting this "evidence" to prove AC's comment of "we didn't need them (JW and AW) as we have enough evidence to convict them." (I can't recall where I heard/saw that particular comment.)

JMO/useless 2 cents

 

[PrairieWind]

what evidence, shoe prints for GW possibly, JW has to say he wore them, and for BW what evidence I must have missed it, IMO

What evidence? Great evidence. The testimony of JW. Will GW4 and BW get up and refute it? Probably not.

 

[Pru2U]

as per my long post explaining my thoughts, I have moved from AW staying at home to her being at the crime scenes and maybe killing some of the victims, I don't know if she was there, same as I don't know if BW or GW were there, but out of all the witnesses we have heard from and the constant use of the word controlling in relation to her I think there is a possibility that she could not leave anything to chance, and so she went along to ensure the job was done to her satisfaction IMO

I'm catching what you're pitching. I waffle back and forth on AW being there, I always have (at least since they were arrested) and like you, that feeling grows a little stronger with each witness. That being said, I do not feel less confident about GW or BW being there. Nothing would please me more than for the truth to confirm exactly who was there either way. I'm not sure we'll ever get that, I'm only saying the jurors have to weigh JW's & AW's testimony, as is, the same as all the rest of the evidence.

You & Raisinback (with your intriguing counter arguments) have gotten me this far helping me keep an open mind. I want very much to keep it open. Raisin seems convinced it was AW not GW, it sounds like you might be leaning that direction now as well? I'll say it again, the prosecution is not finished and the defense hasn't started, we've got a long way to go. But I sure do enjoy your posts.

I can agree with you on one thing though; I think the world is so hungry for the details, and the prosecution had all this evidence to share... they may be going a tad broad by trying to get it all in instead of really drilling down on GW, but that's just my opinion. I'm soaking it all up though - no denying that!

As for the W-4 dynamics, I hope whoever writes the book on this doesn't take any short cuts & will dig deep into their family dynamics. See, I think Billy WAS a constant in their lives, no matter where he hung his hat, but man, if ever there was one, THIS is the family who put the func in dysfunctional.

 

[Pru2U]

I try to remember the jurors have little to no information on this case. We know much more than will be presented in this trial. We all came here biased, in one way or another. So, with that thinking I went into this trial trying to think that way. Personally, just my useless 2 cents here, prosecution has not convinced me George participated. But I KNOW he was involved because I/we know so much more than the jurors will ever know. Of course we want them convicted. I'm waiting this "evidence" to prove AC's comment of "we didn't need them (JW and AW) as we have enough evidence to convict them." (I can't recall where I heard/saw that particular comment.)

JMO/useless 2 cents

Same here! It's a challenge. With your two cents and my two cents, we only need about five or six more dollars to get one of those fancy Starbucks drinks.

 

[Chelly]

https://twitter.com/pattinewberry
Patricia Gallagher Newberry
https://twitter.com/pattinewberry
@pattinewberry

In cross exam in the #PikeCountyMassacre trial of #GeorgeWagnerIV this afternoon, former Wagner IV sister-in-law Elizabeth Armer said she had little contact w/Wagner IV himself. She met him just twice in Alaska, then for a few days in Missouri, then lived w/them in Ohio. 1/8

@pattinewberry
·
1h

Replying to
@pattinewberry
Once back in southern Ohio with the Wagners, Armer was offended by what she considered sexist jokes that Wagner IV told. Did she call him a blowhard when interviewed by investigators?, Wagner IV attorney John Parker asked. "That sounds reasonable," she replied. 2/8

 

[Tillicum]

Anyone else gonna have to go on a diet when this trial is over?

 

[sunshineray]

I hold a completely different viewpoint, if somebodies' testimony has been bought then I don't think they are telling the truth, they are telling a version of the truth, IMO. I can quite easily see AW doing some of the murders the longer this trial has gone on, or even BW not even being there, thus far a month in nobody has been placed at the scene by the evidence, not even GW

and if I am expected to solely take JW word on who did what at the crime scenes then for me the state will not have proven their case,

who knows how much longer the state's case will be before we get to JW and AW,

I respect your viewpoint

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Well another long day of Jake and Angie. I am getting really sick of their names.

But we did learn a few things about George. He likes the ladies. <modsnip: censored for a reason>. He likes to stay out all night on weekends. Dare I say drinking as CN said? (gasp) No wonder Angie told George he was going to Hell. I believe he could have even been drinking while he was with a <modsnip: censored for a reason>. After all he is a single man so he has no business running around with women and staying out all night. Or hanging out with Chris, drinking (per CN). If fact she said he was hardly ever around, so much so that she didn't see him much at all, just heard him coming and going from the house, except for the times he was arguing with Jake and Angie, I guess about his philandering ways.

Seriously Beth helped George enormously. When he threatened violence against DeWine and BCI agents Beth said it was a bluff, George was just blowing off steam, and that George was just a blowhard, that he didn't mean what he said. Well let's kick that threatening violence toward law enforcement to the garbage heap. Something Canepa made up to deny him bond. Now we see why when Yost took over the Ohio AG office he fired her and pushed her off on Pike county.

While we are on Canepa, Beth debunked that cultish, enmeshed family theory AC threw out there. But that has been the theme from all the witnesses who are not LE. I think the only reason George stayed was because he needed a babysitter for his son. Otherwise he would have left that bat shyte crazy mom and brother of his and moved into his own house long before Angie and Jake killed an entire family.

George told them he was taking his son and moving back to Ohio, whether AW and JW came or not. Billy had already gone back, probably having had enough of Angie and Jake and their, let's see how did Beth put it, "High and mighty ways." I could see how that judgmental attitude could wear on a persons nerves. (one reason my Bible thumping son is only allowed to visit me for one hour. lol)

On the other hand I think Beth did great!!!!!! Very smart, steady, firm young lady who would not allow the defense to twist her words. She said what she meant and meant what she said. I very much admired her, especially when she walked out of that courtroom with her head held high. She went through hell with Jake and Angie and came out alive and it would appear very stable.

But Beth helped George a lot. She didn't really have anything bad to say about him other than he yelled, but apparently that is the way they discussed things. First she showed how he was away most of the time. He worked through the week and on weekends he left and stayed out late. He hung out with Chris and Randa. He liked the ladies for sure. He told off colored jokes that she didn't approve of but in todays world we have an ex leader who told a reporter in an interview how he would grab women's private parts, and even strict Christians called it "just locker room talk" and voted for him anyway.

But coming from an Amish community she probably didn't appreciate those jokes. She told how he fought with Angie and Jake over a lot of things, meaning he did not go along with their bat shyte crazy ideas at all. How he told them flat out he was taking his son and moving back to Ohio, showing he and Billy was not part of a cultish, enmeshed family. Chris said basically the same thing, that George didn't stay home much.

There was some very disturbing things in her testimony though.

How at first she thought Jake and Angie were a couple. Don't want to get into that sickness but I was hoping the defense would ask her why she thought that.

The fact that Jake slept with SW in the bed between Beth and him or with him between Beth and SW. Screams pedophile to me and shows why he was so determined that Hannah would not take SW from him. And why he even tried to get KR, perhaps to groom a girl from infancy for his pleasure. I would also add as more evidence that he was a pedophile, Beth testified she and him only had sex once a week. I could believe that if he was an older man married for 20 years with a houseful of kids. But a young man like that, newly married, he shows he definitely was not attracted to Beth who at 25 was too old for him.

That he believed Angie over his wife, similar to him believing Angie over Hannah. Even to the point that he believed Angie when she said Beth molested SW. I can't even imagine how that poor girl felt when AW and JW confronted her with that. Beth must have been horrified. Especially when Jake and Angie threatened to tie her up, beat her to death with a ball bat behind the barn, then burn the barn down. I noticed she did not tell BCI agents that she believed that Jake and Angie were just bluffing when they threatened her with violence. Huge difference between AW and JW and George in Beth's mind.

And once again we see the pattern of Jake picking vulnerable, naive girls who have been sexually molested as a child.

Many things about her testimony concerning Jake and Angie was very disturbing.

But she made George come off looking like a normal young man, who went out with girls, stayed out all night and told off color jokes and hung out with his uncle drinking. Pretty common for young men everywhere.

JMO

 

[Chelly]

as per my long post explaining my thoughts, I have moved from AW staying at home to her being at the crime scenes and maybe killing some of the victims, I don't know if she was there, same as I don't know if BW or GW were there, but out of all the witnesses we have heard from and the constant use of the word controlling in relation to her I think there is a possibility that she could not leave anything to chance, and so she went along to ensure the job was done to her satisfaction IMO

If AW was at the crime scene, I wonder who stayed home with the kids?

 

[Tiff23fr]

Are there opinions on where the defense is going with George's weight?
I would like to hear others thoughts but have a lingering wonder if it could relate to weight loss and shoe fit somehow. Does that seem far fetched?

ETA: like he lost weight and the shoe size at the scene is still too tight.

I'm just really curious why they keep bringing it up.

 

[justtrish]

I'm catching what you're pitching. I waffle back and forth on AW being there, I always have (at least since they were arrested) and like you, that feeling grows a little stronger with each witness. That being said, I do not feel less confident about GW or BW being there. Nothing would please me more than for the truth to confirm exactly who was there either way. I'm not sure we'll ever get that, I'm only saying the jurors have to weigh JW's & AW's testimony, as is, the same as all the rest of the evidence.

You & Raisinback (with your intriguing counter arguments) have gotten me this far helping me keep an open mind. I want very much to keep it open. Raisin seems convinced it was AW not GW, it sounds like you might be leaning that direction now as well? I'll say it again, the prosecution is not finished and the defense hasn't started, we've got a long way to go. But I sure do enjoy your posts.

I can agree with you on one thing though; I think the world is so hungry for the details, and the prosecution had all this evidence to share... they may be going a tad broad by trying to get it all in instead of really drilling down on GW, but that's just my opinion. I'm soaking it all up though - no denying that!

As for the W-4 dynamics, I hope whoever writes the book on this doesn't take any short cuts & will dig deep into their family dynamics. See, I think Billy WAS a constant in their lives, no matter where he hung his hat, but man, if ever there was one, THIS is the family who put the func in dysfunctional.

I haven't followed any other conspiracy type trials this closely so I admit my understanding of this is more limited.

I get the feeling they have to go broad to include everything for all of them because the crimes they committed individually are ALL included and combined to equal the larger conspiracy charge. What one does means all have done (in the eyes of the law) so they have to show it all. They have to give the background on all, the details of Hannah and Jake because that was the motive and even thought George wasn't in that relationship, he was part of the conspiracy to commit the murders and the motive is super important.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

for today, Friday, 10/21

James Pilcher
@jamespilcher
Good morning from Pike Co murder trial - first up is Jake's ex-wife Elizabeth Armer who is allowing video. She married Jake when they met in Alaska and she moved back to Ohio with them. She has opted in for video.

Grew up in Amish Mennonite community in Tennessee

View attachment 374591

She had gone to Alaska to fry high school education and get more standard way of living

Attended a fundamental Baptist church on Kennai penninsula

First time she saw Wagners was in church, saw Jake and Angela and the kids - and she thought they were a couple.

Remembers "intense feeling" when she noticed Jake watching her - thought it was attraction.

Jake asked her out on Facebook - she said she was not interested in going out with someone she didn't know - so he introduced himself later

They started dating - his daughter Sophia would tag along sometimes.

At some point, pastor of church got up in front of congregation and said they should welcome Wagners in despite negative stories in media out of Ohio

Jake also told her that the family had been hounded by the news media, and that people were putting him under suspicion because his ex-girlfriend and Sophia's mom was killed

Jake proposed after nine months. She also met family for first time and they were all yelling - never heard anyone yell that much or loudly in her life.

Jake said they would initially be engaged for two years, but kept moving it up and up. Then it was just one month out. Said he was moving - said she could break it off or come with him. He said they were moving to Missouri.

He also told her he didn't live with his family, they lived separately and they rented from him. But then she discovered they all lived together.

The plan was for she and Jake to live separately with Sophia. Then she and Jake got married at a friends house "a beautiful cabin"

She is one of eight kids - seven brothers. One was there at the wedding. Beth says George and Billy sat in corner skulking.

Spent wedding night at local hotel. She asked that marriage not be consummated that night, Beth says Jake initially agreed but did not honor it. He then immediately asked for all her personal info like passwords, social security number, bank info - also synced phones

Angela and Jake also asked her to sign agreement document that she wouldn't try to get custody of Sophia in case of a divorce.

That was signed before the wedding.

link: https://twitter.com/jamespilcher

They were renting a house from Jake. What a liar. More fuel for P&N's fire when they tear Jake a new one on the stand. lol

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

This poor girl. Jake is clearly a predator. First 13 year old Hannah, then poor innocent Elizabeth, who might as well have been 13. She was so innocent and Jake was such a liar.

Don't forget SW and little KR.

JMO