OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #31

[Betty P]

No body is saying that this is something that happens on a frequent basis. Obviously, it doesn't. Just because people can hold a grudge or can shun family does not mean they will kill them. Nowhere did I say that our region is filled with rage-filled murderers, (In fact, I noted earlier, that my county hadn't had a murder in 10 years), but, there are cases, of retribution. Could someone known to the Rs, have planned this out? I think they could have. I'm not saying it isn't drugs, or it isn't contract killers, I'm just saying, it might be about something more personal, at the end of the day, and someone close, might very well have provided info, and been there that night.

I also agree with amauet, avid hunters, maybe w/some sort of LE or military background, (neither uncommon) and yes, I think they could plan this out. When this first happened, Dewine said that somebody, who was in on this, had to be familiar with the properties. Reader had BCI called within an hour or so of finding the bodies. By 2:30 or so, that day, they'd figured out that this was specifically targeted to eradicate this family, and, basically, no one else was in danger. This could very well have been business, but that doesn't mean it wasn't very personal. There was a whole lot of hate aimed at these folks, imo. As LM himself said;

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...rs-abound-pike-county/sw88H0SRjuYVltzKX3xXUO/



http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law...ed-knew-the-territory/lzgfo60J12ruE4BjV9NosN/

I think we're in agreement that the killers were familiar with the homes and habits of the family and that information may have been gained through visits or through interaction with unknowing close friends or family members.

Unknowing: BJM and other M family members

Knowing: W family and associates

Assumptions not yet validated:

That the Rhoden family had close friends who were psychologically prepared, motivated and sufficiently experienced and equipped to massacre their entire family, then return to normal everyday lives without showing any signs of having done this.

That the killers had to be people who had been in the homes of the victims and had personal relationships with them.



Motives:

Money
Drugs
Revenge or retribution for alleged criminal activities
Custody issues over child of HR


Known facts:

CR1 & KR were involved in an MJ grow op and other activities (cars, etc.) that brought them into regular contact with organized criminal groups.

Rhodens had been engaged in a conflict with members of the W family about custody of HR's child

Killers revealed they had adequate skills to get into and out of the UHR area without being observed
Killers were able to obtain weapons and dispose of them in a way LE could not track
Knew the best time of night to attack without
Killers were adequately armed, possibly including special equipment to navigate dark homes (flashlights, night vision, etc.)
Killers knew how to enter the homes and work quietly and quickly in the dark to find and execute multiple victims before they could raise an alarm and without causing collateral damage to children and themselves
Killers were able to take steps to hinder the LE investigation in each of the 4 homes

LE has executed multiple search warrants
LE is known to have taken DNA samples, examined computer & cell phone records from:

Manley family - LM, BJM, JM

Wagner family

Discussion:

The killers didn't have to have been in the homes before the murders. They could have been watching the homes before the murders, hence heightened activity by CR1 and others in the weeks leading up to the murders. Could be they noticed suspicious vehicles patrolling the area around their homes. They also seemed aware that someone was planning to attack them.

Were Rhodens hearing rumors? Had something happened recently to put them on alert? Business deal gone wrong? Escalating war of words over custody? Falling out between CR1 & G Wagner?

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...-case-because-authorities-clueless/431678001/

What we need to figure out is who realistically had the skills (not knowledge of properties) to pull off these murders and evade detection. We keep getting bogged down with the assumption that the killers had to be people who knew the Rhodens and visited their homes frequently. That's not required to pull off these murders. Worse, it puts us in the position of narrowing our focus and falling victim to confirmation bias.

After searching around, I found some ideas for overcoming confirmation bias in criminal investigations. One of the suggestions from experts is to take the people you suspect of the crime and find ways to prove them innocent. Try to poke holes in your own theory. I've been trying to do that myself over time. It helps to keep an open mind.


Maybe we'll make more progress by analyzing suspects and theories to see who we can take off the list. Is there any single item of information that could rule out a suspect or theory?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../tunnel-vision-in-the-criminal-justice-system

Another goal would be to make sure we have all the solid information that's available to use in investigating these murders. Things reported, then forgotten or overlooked, etc.

The last big suggestion is to find ways to advocate for these victims and keep the investigation moving forward in a productive way.

Just some suggestions.

 

[Betty P]

BBM
What drug boss? If the Ws were into the drug game, they were doing a very poor job. Also, they couldn't just walk up to a drug boss and make up a story to get another person murdered, and then walk away, to Alaska, w/o a care in the world. If there was a high level drug boss, that both families answered to, and both the Ws and the Rs were in it jock strap deep, walking away is the last thing that either family would have been able to have done.

I do think that CR1 could have gotten into something, that he thought he could make some fast, easy, money and then get out. That's when the $h*t hit the fan. When you tell someone who is into a lot of illegal dealings, dealings that could put them in prison, for a very long time, and you happen to be privy to those dealings, that you're leaving the business, it doesn't go over very well. They turn from being your "friend", and your "employer" to being a threat. They see you as a turncoat, and a liability. They took you into their confidence, they helped you make something of yourself, they trusted you, and you have the audacity to say; It's been real, thanks, but, I'm out. Nope, that wouldn't set well.

I don't think that the Ws were into drug dealing, if they were, they weren't very good at it b/c they formerly all lived in a couple trailers on the elder W's land, then they had to live with their sons, and tried raising exotic animals, which seemed to be a bust. They almost had to give them away at the end. I think they liked to bore with a big auger, and it caught up to them. The places that Momma W was seeking to rent, in AK, were not in the high rent areas. JW quit hauling and took a different job, to be home more, for little S, after the murders. Remember, he was tapped out of cash, after all the lawyer fees. If he'd just up and quit hauling for a drug boss, he'd likely been dead before they ever sold that home. I don't blame them for moving, I'd not want my child to grow up down the road from that nightmare. Is it possible that they sat around, like Ben Oxley's ex and bf, and discussed ways of getting rid of them, til they decided to do so, and somehow did? It's possible, and that's why they are around #5, on my Whodunnit List, but I just don't see them as drug dealers.

When I refer to drugs, I'm referring to MJ grow ops as well. If CR1 & KR were selling their MJ, they were coming in contact with people who also dealt in other drugs. Their MJ activity would have brought them into that circle of people, especially if they were doing it for a number of years. CR1 was a pretty smart guy and it's likely he knew a lot about the people he was dealing with, the local hierarchy, etc. Had he not been paying attention to those details, he would not have lasted long in the MJ business. He also would have learned about LE in the area and the criminal justice system, again as part of his interest in conducting business.

I disagree about the W family. JMO, we need to keep an open mind on that. The extended family knew a lot of people in the area. The elder W's had land contracts with a lot of people who have been busted for dealing drugs, MJ operations and manufacturing drugs (see the arrests of people who lived on W property and were busted by PCSO after the raids on the W farms last summer.)

 

[Betty P]

I've been thinking about the number of times each person was shot. It seems like all but one were a "hit and run" type thing where they make sure the victim could not survive and they didn't have to make sure they were dead. Did they have more time with KR? Did they feel they had enough time to do other things and just make sure he was dead before they left? Did they know he could not survive that one shot?

Good question about KR. Might be worth looking at what we can see of his autopsy report to determine the extent of his injuries. As the only victim who was alone at the crime scene, they may have had more time to make sure he was dead. At the other crime scenes they had to work quickly to ensure others still alive could not escape, fight back and call for help. No time to take someone's pulse, so to speak. With KR alone there, they would have more time and assume they were also there to do other work.

If grow op information is accurate, the two places they would have needed to spend some time (robbery, etc.) were at CR1's trailer and KR's. With KR, some have theorized that because he was discovered later, people would have had time to loot whatever MJ and money he had at his place. Some have theorized that some of the killers returned there later that morning to loot product or money. JMO, that would be taking a really big risk, though, with the entire area swarming with dozens of LEO's, helicopters, news media, etc. I remember reading of how the news media was swarming around the area to get some kind of access until LE closed off the roads to the UHR crime scenes. After that, I imagine there were some driving around all those back roads trying to find a way into the UHR crime scenes to get photos, interview someone, etc. Reporters, especially those with national news outlets will go to great lengths to get a story.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

I've been thinking about the number of times each person was shot. It seems like all but one were a "hit and run" type thing where they make sure the victim could not survive and they didn't have to make sure they were dead. Did they have more time with KR? Did they feel they had enough time to do other things and just make sure he was dead before they left? Did they know he could not survive that one shot?

I have a theory about KR, and, I'm going to try to broach it, and if it's against TOS, I apologize in advance. I think that CR1 was likely the top dog of the three men. GR was probably a helper, and KR more of an equal, not sure if FR was in with his Dad, or just "knew" what his family was into, and went on with his life.

The person(s) that killed them, was enraged, with this family. I think that it's possible that KR was hit first. They go to his place, and he knows them and welcomes them in, maybe thinking they were there to consider a deal. They tell him, that it's over, that the R's game is over, and they're all going to die tonight, (I think they would want CR1 & KR to know what was going to happen to DR and the kids, for their transgressions - punishment), KR pulls out money, to try and pay them off, show them their good for it, and will fall back into line, but it's too late, and they just shoot him dead. One of them, being familiar with the property, gathered up the cams, and anything else, and they went on their way to UHR.

CR1 may have been last, so they could tell him, what, exactly, he had brought upon his family, and how they'd died, they then just opened up on him, shooting him the most, but still ended with a head shot, like the others.

In other words,for example; If one hated someone, enough to kill them, and decided to kill their beloved dog too, as extra punishment, what good would it do, if the victim didn't know about their dog? The assailant, I think, would want them to know, before they executed them, every detail about what assailant(s) had done to their beloved pet, and how they, the victim, were the cause of their pet's suffering, and death, before they killed the human victim. Maybe even show them pictures, as proof. Then, kill the hated human, and maybe take their hatred out, with nine shots, just to make them suffer before the head shot.

I'd initially, and haven't completely dropped, my theory that they'd almost lost it at CR1's, but it could have been as simple as watching him suffer, as they told him what he brought down on his family.

Purely something that's been rattling around my poor old brain. I just think that this was partially hate/punishment driven, and what good is punishment, if the main people you are punishing, don't know about the other deaths?

 

[rsd1200]

I think we're in agreement that the killers were familiar with the homes and habits of the family and that information may have been gained through visits or through interaction with unknowing close friends or family members.

Unknowing: BJM and other M family members

Knowing: W family and associates

Assumptions not yet validated:

That the Rhoden family had close friends who were psychologically prepared, motivated and sufficiently experienced and equipped to massacre their entire family, then return to normal everyday lives without showing any signs of having done this.

That the killers had to be people who had been in the homes of the victims and had personal relationships with them.



Motives:

Money
Drugs
Revenge or retribution for alleged criminal activities
Custody issues over child of HR


Known facts:

CR1 & KR were involved in an MJ grow op and other activities (cars, etc.) that brought them into regular contact with organized criminal groups.

Rhodens had been engaged in a conflict with members of the W family about custody of HR's child

Killers revealed they had adequate skills to get into and out of the UHR area without being observed
Killers were able to obtain weapons and dispose of them in a way LE could not track
Knew the best time of night to attack without
Killers were adequately armed, possibly including special equipment to navigate dark homes (flashlights, night vision, etc.)
Killers knew how to enter the homes and work quietly and quickly in the dark to find and execute multiple victims before they could raise an alarm and without causing collateral damage to children and themselves
Killers were able to take steps to hinder the LE investigation in each of the 4 homes

LE has executed multiple search warrants
LE is known to have taken DNA samples, examined computer & cell phone records from:

Manley family - LM, BJM, JM

Wagner family

Discussion:

The killers didn't have to have been in the homes before the murders. They could have been watching the homes before the murders, hence heightened activity by CR1 and others in the weeks leading up to the murders. Could be they noticed suspicious vehicles patrolling the area around their homes. They also seemed aware that someone was planning to attack them.

Were Rhodens hearing rumors? Had something happened recently to put them on alert? Business deal gone wrong? Escalating war of words over custody? Falling out between CR1 & G Wagner?

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...-case-because-authorities-clueless/431678001/

What we need to figure out is who realistically had the skills (not knowledge of properties) to pull off these murders and evade detection. We keep getting bogged down with the assumption that the killers had to be people who knew the Rhodens and visited their homes frequently. That's not required to pull off these murders. Worse, it puts us in the position of narrowing our focus and falling victim to confirmation bias.

After searching around, I found some ideas for overcoming confirmation bias in criminal investigations. One of the suggestions from experts is to take the people you suspect of the crime and find ways to prove them innocent. Try to poke holes in your own theory. I've been trying to do that myself over time. It helps to keep an open mind.


Maybe we'll make more progress by analyzing suspects and theories to see who we can take off the list. Is there any single item of information that could rule out a suspect or theory?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../tunnel-vision-in-the-criminal-justice-system

Another goal would be to make sure we have all the solid information that's available to use in investigating these murders. Things reported, then forgotten or overlooked, etc.

The last big suggestion is to find ways to advocate for these victims and keep the investigation moving forward in a productive way.

Just some suggestions.

I agree with your first paragraph, but I'm not sure what you mean with the Unknowing and Knowing list. We really have no way to distinguish who belongs in what list. The Ws may not have been in-laws, legally, but they may as well have been. HMR had practically stayed there, and had even gone on vacations with them, from the time that she was very young, until the break-up, and had worked out a visitation plan with JW. I think that she and JW started dating when she was 14 and she was only 17 when little S was born (Side note: HMR would have been 21, this past Saturday).

It's been said that CR1 and GW were good friends, even if not, they were basically in-laws. How could the Ws have gone on with life and acted normal, if they'd arranged to kill, or they did kill, that entire family, one being the teen mother of their grandchild, lying next to a four day old infant, who their son hoped was his child?

Known Facts:
Weed grows: If you are into something illegal, you will brush elbows with other in illegal activities, be it other illegal drug traffickers, firearm traffickers, thieves, etc... You will have those people coming in and out of the place where you do business. It's just part of it, and if you don't have what someone wants, most dealers will connect you with a dude they know. There's also a big tease to get into the harder stuff, because there's way more money in those, than weed. Usually more danger with it too. I have not yet heard that the R's were in "regular contact with organized crime groups" though. I'm thinking of more like one... As for the vehicles, we just don't know. Iirc, the vehicles came back legal, and 15 of them were registered to DR. Her victim's payment went through, so that, to me, cleared her of criminal activity.

All of that getting into and out of homes, shows more proof to me that someone was familiar with, at the very least, CR1's and KR's places. I have to agree with LE in that at least one person had to be knowledgeable of the properties.. They were obviously not afraid of the dogs at any of the homes, able to move around in the dark, knew where video cameras were, and took them, and acted quickly. That shows familiarity to me. As far as the firearms, it's not really a problem to purchase any kind of firearm that you want, need, or desire. If gun shop doesn't have it, the guy down the street will.

As for me, I'm willing to look at all angles, I'm just not set in stone that it was the Ws, or it was a hit man. I'm also not set in stone that it was the other W (but do feel he's pretty sketchy). I'm not set in stone that it was family member(s), but do feel that someone, within the closeness, of friend, or kin, has knowledge that they're not sharing.

The search warrants have not turned up anything to call anyone "suspects", thus far, and as of May last year, there were "several dozen" search warrants executed, so all that we all are doing here, is tossing out theories. (1)

I look for commonalities. What commonalities did all of those who were murdered, have in common? That's what's lead to my pet theories. Not that my theories, or my way, are anymore right than anyone else's.

Edit: Some of the Rs, are sm friends, and are watching little S grow, on her Dad's account.


(1) https://www.cbsnews.com/news/evidence-tampering-charge-in-probe-of-ohio-family-massacre/

 

[Betty P]

I have a theory about KR, and, I'm going to try to broach it, and if it's against TOS, I apologize in advance. I think that CR1 was likely the top dog of the three men. GR was probably a helper, and KR more of an equal, not sure if FR was in with his Dad, or just "knew" what his family was into, and went on with his life.

The person(s) that killed them, was enraged, with this family. I think that it's possible that KR was hit first. They go to his place, and he knows them and welcomes them in, maybe thinking they were there to consider a deal. They tell him, that it's over, that the R's game is over, and they're all going to die tonight, (I think they would want CR1 & KR to know what was going to happen to DR and the kids, for their transgressions - punishment), KR pulls out money, to try and pay them off, show them their good for it, and will fall back into line, but it's too late, and they just shoot him dead. One of them, being familiar with the property, gathered up the cams, and anything else, and they went on their way to UHR.

CR1 may have been last, so they could tell him, what, exactly, he had brought upon his family, and how they'd died, they then just opened up on him, shooting him the most, but still ended with a head shot, like the others.

In other words,for example; If one hated someone, enough to kill them, and decided to kill their beloved dog too, as extra punishment, what good would it do, if the victim didn't know about their dog? The assailant, I think, would want them to know, before they executed them, every detail about what assailant(s) had done to their beloved pet, and how they, the victim, were the cause of their pet's suffering, and death, before they killed the human victim. Maybe even show them pictures, as proof. Then, kill the hated human, and maybe take their hatred out, with nine shots, just to make them suffer before the head shot.

I'd initially, and haven't completely dropped, my theory that they'd almost lost it at CR1's, but it could have been as simple as watching him suffer, as they told him what he brought down on his family.

Purely something that's been rattling around my poor old brain. I just think that this was partially hate/punishment driven, and what good is punishment, if the main people you are punishing, don't know about the other deaths?

If this was a rage killing, any idea what the motive would be? It would have to be something really strong to motivate someone to kill so many people, mostly innocent victims

Rage killers usually work alone, it's pretty rare for them to work with other people. In this case, it involved at least one other person, possibly more.

Rage killers are usually impulsive people, not prone to planning or enlisting partners. Rage killers have planned murders in the past, but they're in the minority. That particular profile usually comes with mental illness. Would the partner also be mentally ill?

Rage killings are also usually fueled by alcohol or drug consumption. Does that square with a well planned execution of 8 people at 4 different crime scenes. We have to keep in mind, these murders were very difficult for the perps to commit. Time consuming, physically, mentally and emotionally demanding.

JMO, there are also elements of execution style murder in this case. DeWine and others have used the term.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...deaths-relatives-ohio/uiSYC1VcDIeGdBj4bjzarM/

Just trying to develop a profile of these killers. What do you all think?

 

[Bootsctr]

I think the R's had to have been under surveillance for some time. Whether it was LE or an opposing family cartel - I don't know. I think CR1 rubbed arms with the wrong people. I think whomever did this knew the R's wouldn't go without a fight!!! I don't know if there was an attempt to extract some information from CR1 that night, but I would not doubt it. This was at least 2 or more people. There were people who surveyed the property every night and day. There was someone who made contact with BJM, JM and possibly the W's (JW), maybe others, but they never suspected the R's were being set up for a massacre. There might have been thoughts among these same individuals something just wasn't quite right in the days leading up to the massacre, but I don't think they expected 8 people to have been executed. I would love to know what the text was between JM and JW, but I don't think they are the murderers. This was professional with inside information of the homes and the grows. Someone brought an undercover agent or an opposing drug family into the fold. There was surveillance not known to the families.
Amphetamines and heroine have also been mentioned. I think LE is involved, bigger than local LE Nothing else makes much sense at this point. They shut LM up and the rest of the M's too. The W's left Ohio. As someone said earlier, there is something really wrong with this case. It feels much different than it being family killing family. CR1 lacked the man power to protect his home, his family and his land. Whatever he was doing, I think he was good at doing and it caught the attention of someone high up the ladder that took notice - and not in a good way.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/04/24/ohio-killings-marijuana-grow-operations-nick-valencia.cnn

 

[Hapworth]

The way DS recounts finding KR deceased, it sounds as if KR was in a upper bunk type bed. “I walk up, to the foot of the bed, and I drape, raised my head up and seen blood in his eyes.” Unsure if he says draped/drape. If it’s true that KR was shot once through the eye, wouldn’t it be difficult to shoot someone that way, positioned in an upper bunk? Did KR live in a 5th Wheel type trailer?

https://youtu.be/hwBNUji0RHY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Betty P]

I agree with your first paragraph, but I'm not sure what you mean with the Unknowing and Knowing list. We really have no way to distinguish who belongs in what list. The Ws may not have been in-laws, legally, but they may as well have been. HMR had practically stayed there, and had even gone on vacations with them, from the time that she was very young, until the break-up, and had worked out a visitation plan with JW. I think that she and JW started dating when she was 14 and she was only 17 when little S was born (Side note: HMR would have been 21, this past Saturday).

It's been said that CR1 and GW were good friends, even if not, they were basically in-laws. How could the Ws have gone on with life and acted normal, if they'd arranged to kill, or they did kill, that entire family, one being the teen mother of their grandchild, lying next to a four day old infant, who their son hoped was his child?

Known Facts:
Weed grows: If you are into something illegal, you will brush elbows with other in illegal activities, be it other illegal drug traffickers, firearm traffickers, thieves, etc... You will have those people coming in and out of the place where you do business. It's just part of it, and if you don't have what someone wants, most dealers will connect you with a dude they know. There's also a big tease to get into the harder stuff, because there's way more money in those, than weed. Usually more danger with it too. I have not yet heard that the R's were in "regular contact with organized crime groups" though. I'm thinking of more like one... As for the vehicles, we just don't know. Iirc, the vehicles came back legal, and 15 of them were registered to DR. Her victim's payment went through, so that, to me, cleared her of criminal activity.

All of that getting into and out of homes, shows more proof to me that someone was familiar with, at the very least, CR1's and KR's places. I have to agree with LE in that at least one person had to be knowledgeable of the properties.. They were obviously not afraid of the dogs at any of the homes, able to move around in the dark, knew where video cameras were, and took them, and acted quickly. That shows familiarity to me. As far as the firearms, it's not really a problem to purchase any kind of firearm that you want, need, or desire. If gun shop doesn't have it, the guy down the street will.

As for me, I'm willing to look at all angles, I'm just not set in stone that it was the Ws, or it was a hit man. I'm also not set in stone that it was the other W (but do feel he's pretty sketchy). I'm not set in stone that it was family member(s), but do feel that someone, within the closeness, of friend, or kin, has knowledge that they're not sharing.

The search warrants have not turned up anything to call anyone "suspects", thus far, and as of May last year, there were "several dozen" search warrants executed, so all that we all are doing here, is tossing out theories. (1)

I look for commonalities. What commonalities did all of those who were murdered, have in common? That's what's lead to my pet theories. Not that my theories, or my way, are anymore right than anyone else's.

Edit: Some of the Rs, are sm friends, and are watching little S grow, on her Dad's account.


(1) https://www.cbsnews.com/news/evidence-tampering-charge-in-probe-of-ohio-family-massacre/

Thanks for the correction.

Known facts refers to the facts (few) that we know from the news media, LE, court docs, autopsy reports, etc.

Unknown really refers more to speculation, inferences, rumors, things LE has sometimes hinted at.Things we read and discuss that are not information revealed in the usual news media sources.

Speaking of hints, what do you think Reader & DeWine meant last year when he said that investigating these murders revealed criminal activity LE was unaware of that had been going on in Pike county for multiple decades?

Bringing it up meant this criminal activity had something to do with the Rhoden murders. It also implies organized type of criminal activity. JMO that broadens motive from some family grudge, (being left out of a will), etc or personal disagreement to include a combination of:

personal issues (custody)
crime business disagreement
legitimate business disagreement
non-drug/MJ related business disagreement
robbery
revenge related to any of the above


Again, I'm posting this in hopes we can review what we know in order to rule out suspects, motives, etc.

Other miscellaneous:

In a podcast interview around the anniversary last year, Rhoden said that the killers are local/knows the family/homes, etc. or is someone who was familiar with locals who knew about properties, family routines, etc.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-new...f-talks-rhoden-family-massacre-one-year-later

Discussion begins around 23:07 mark

 

[Betty P]

The way DS recounts finding KR deceased, it sounds as if KR was in a upper bunk type bed. “I walk up, to the foot of the bed, and I drape, raised my head up and seen blood in his eyes.” Unsure if he says draped/drape. If it’s true that KR was shot once through the eye, wouldn’t it be difficult to shoot someone that way, positioned in an upper bunk? Did KR live in a 5th Wheel type trailer?

https://youtu.be/hwBNUji0RHY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, KR was in a 5th wheel type of trailer. Some of the layouts of that kind of trailer I've seen online have the bed in the top portion that is positioned over the bed of the pick up truck. They're somewhat higher than the main floor and they usually have steps going up to them.

Here are some photos of those upper level bedrooms

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...Ci6Twh-9GiKvFrc1KLfLBxx6u4MVxz_pIZb-HmpE97vVA

View with steps and bed beyond, next to door

https://www.bluedogrv.com/blog/wp-c...ver-Wildcat-Maxx-Fifth-Wheel-RV-Interior.jpeg

These are usually to the right of the entry door, so yeah, DS was probably telling the truth about that. If KR was lying on his side or back, such a wound would have been visible from where DS was standing.

 

[rsd1200]

If this was a rage killing, any idea what the motive would be? It would have to be something really strong to motivate someone to kill so many people, mostly innocent victims

Rage killers usually work alone, it's pretty rare for them to work with other people. In this case, it involved at least one other person, possibly more.

Rage killers are usually impulsive people, not prone to planning or enlisting partners. Rage killers have planned murders in the past, but they're in the minority. That particular profile usually comes with mental illness. Would the partner also be mentally ill?

Rage killings are also usually fueled by alcohol or drug consumption. Does that square with a well planned execution of 8 people at 4 different crime scenes. We have to keep in mind, these murders were very difficult for the perps to commit. Time consuming, physically, mentally and emotionally demanding.

JMO, there are also elements of execution style murder in this case. DeWine and others have used the term.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...deaths-relatives-ohio/uiSYC1VcDIeGdBj4bjzarM/

Just trying to develop a profile of these killers. What do you all think?

I didn't say it was a "rage killing". I said that I think that the assailants were "enraged" with the Rs. Two very different things.

A "rage killing" would be something on the order of being at a party, and someone becomes enraged, and unglued, and immediately begins to kill everyone or anything, in site. Anyone familiar with this case, knows that it is highly unlikely that this is what happened in this case.

I said "The person(s) that killed them, was enraged, with this family." The Rs had made them furious, angry, incensed, etc... I'm okay with any of those other choice of words if you don't like enraged.

I agree with LM though, it's almost like a hate crime. Whether they hired someone to do kill them, or killed them themselves, whether it was business related, or related to not wanting to go through the courts to get a custody change, I feel that part of this was about anger and hate.

 

[rsd1200]

Thanks for the correction.

Known facts refers to the facts (few) that we know from the news media, LE, court docs, autopsy reports, etc.

Unknown really refers more to speculation, inferences, rumors, things LE has sometimes hinted at.Things we read and discuss that are not information revealed in the usual news media sources.

Speaking of hints, what do you think Reader & DeWine meant last year when he said that investigating these murders revealed criminal activity LE was unaware of that had been going on in Pike county for multiple decades?

Bringing it up meant this criminal activity had something to do with the Rhoden murders. It also implies organized type of criminal activity. JMO that broadens motive from some family grudge, (being left out of a will), etc or personal disagreement to include a combination of:

personal issues (custody)
crime business disagreement
legitimate business disagreement
non-drug/MJ related business disagreement
robbery
revenge related to any of the above


Again, I'm posting this in hopes we can review what we know in order to rule out suspects, motives, etc.

Other miscellaneous:

In a podcast interview around the anniversary last year, Rhoden said that the killers are local/knows the family/homes, etc. or is someone who was familiar with locals who knew about properties, family routines, etc.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-new...f-talks-rhoden-family-massacre-one-year-later

Discussion begins around 23:07 mark

BBM

I truly do think about this case every single day, and bug the daylights out of people who will sit and let me run it by them, and ask their thoughts. It is truly a unique and very weird case.

We don't know a whole lot, except, as Boots says above, that the Rs did have weed grows. The only reason that I take that as the gospel from LE, is that KR2 admitted that she knew, only she said it was not in the amount that LE implied. Reader says it was a couple little grows. So, here again, we have another set of conflicting statements. That's one thing that gets me with this case, so many conflicting statements. It's such a huge case too and the Rs had quite a bit of drama in their lives, that there's so many areas to look at. I still think about the kids, they ran off, who were driving through UHR. Were they doing some scoping for someone, or were they just out driving? Why did the Rs react the way they did? Were they expecting something? Who else would have known if they were?

I think that Boots may be close. The Rs rubbed elbows with a lot of different folks and some of those folks may be what I'd call "frienemies". They got along to a point, but didn't mind talking about the Rs, to other folks. I'd read that the area was much quieter now, after the Rs were murdered. I didn't take that as a slam, but, if you're in a type of business, like drug sales, and selling cars/car parts, you are going to have folks coming in and out a whole lot. Also, all the kids had cars and likely run up and down the road from sibling's home to Mom's, to KR's and cousin's, etc... Such a huge and tight nit family, but, I'm sure they fussed on each other too, to people, just like other families.

If anyone dished info, I don't think they did it to deliberately get the Rs killed. It was probably thought of as dishing gossip. I really think that the Rs could have gotten themselves into something and, like I said earlier, wanted out, or there's the possibility that they wanted more, and to unseat the person who brought them in. That would not sit well either. Some of these folks could even be involved in the car sales, auctions, and the derbies, so it was easy to talk to folks who were "familiar with locals who knew about properties, family routines, etc." (BBM from your post).

Just some scattered thoughts.

Edit: Eating now so can't look up, but, while it's on my mind, wasn't there evidence, that at least CR1, had also been beaten?

 

[Dudly]

BBM

I truly do think about this case every single day, and bug the daylights out of people who will sit and let me run it by them, and ask their thoughts. It is truly a unique and very weird case.

We don't know a whole lot, except, as Boots says above, that the Rs did have weed grows. The only reason that I take that as the gospel from LE, is that KR2 admitted that she knew, only she said it was not in the amount that LE implied. Reader says it was a couple little grows. So, here again, we have another set of conflicting statements. That's one thing that gets me with this case, so many conflicting statements. It's such a huge case too and the Rs had quite a bit of drama in their lives, that there's so many areas to look at. I still think about the kids, they ran off, who were driving through UHR. Were they doing some scoping for someone, or were they just out driving? Why did the Rs react the way they did? Were they expecting something? Who else would have known if they were?

I think that Boots may be close. The Rs rubbed elbows with a lot of different folks and some of those folks may be what I'd call "frienemies". They got along to a point, but didn't mind talking about the Rs, to other folks. I'd read that the area was much quieter now, after the Rs were murdered. I didn't take that as a slam, but, if you're in a type of business, like drug sales, and selling cars/car parts, you are going to have folks coming in and out a whole lot. Also, all the kids had cars and likely run up and down the road from sibling's home to Mom's, to KR's and cousin's, etc... Such a huge and tight nit family, but, I'm sure they fussed on each other too, to people, just like other families.

If anyone dished info, I don't think they did it to deliberately get the Rs killed. It was probably thought of as dishing gossip. I really think that the Rs could have gotten themselves into something and, like I said earlier, wanted out, or there's the possibility that they wanted more, and to unseat the person who brought them in. That would not sit well either. Some of these folks could even be involved in the car sales, auctions, and the derbies, so it was easy to talk to folks who were "familiar with locals who knew about properties, family routines, etc." (BBM from your post).

Just some scattered thoughts.

Edit: Eating now so can't look up, but, while it's on my mind, wasn't there evidence, that at least CR1, had also been beaten?

BJM said as much in the 911 call. She said it looked like someone beat the hell out of him. That may have been because he was bloodied up and looked bruised from GS wounds. I think the Autopsy report mentioned bruising also.

 

[pearl]

What baffles me the most is there have been no info given in news leaks. Consider the number of people who witnessed a part of the investigation: a large local and state LE presence, crime scene investigators (on site and in lab), medical personnel, funeral home staff, the people that physically moved the trailers, and others I probably know nothing about. Who or what is insuring that this investigation stays quiet?

 

[amauet1]

No body is saying that this is something that happens on a frequent basis. Obviously, it doesn't. Just because people can hold a grudge or can shun family does not mean they will kill them. Nowhere did I say that our region is filled with rage-filled murderers, (In fact, I noted earlier, that my county hadn't had a murder in 10 years), but, there are cases, of retribution. Could someone known to the Rs, have planned this out? I think they could have. I'm not saying it isn't drugs, or it isn't contract killers, I'm just saying, it might be about something more personal, at the end of the day, and someone close, might very well have provided info, and been there that night.

I also agree with amauet, avid hunters, maybe w/some sort of LE or military background, (neither uncommon) and yes, I think they could plan this out. When this first happened, Dewine said that somebody, who was in on this, had to be familiar with the properties. Reader had BCI called within an hour or so of finding the bodies. By 2:30 or so, that day, they'd figured out that this was specifically targeted to eradicate this family, and, basically, no one else was in danger. This could very well have been business, but that doesn't mean it wasn't very personal. There was a whole lot of hate aimed at these folks, imo. As LM himself said;

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...rs-abound-pike-county/sw88H0SRjuYVltzKX3xXUO/



http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law...ed-knew-the-territory/lzgfo60J12ruE4BjV9NosN/

In my posts I am considering the neighborhood and the people that someone dealing in drugs would associate with. It's been said that all that's there are "hillbillies" or people that have moved from the "hills" to Southern Ohio. The Rhoden's came from Greenup Ky and from their? I don't find the word "hillbilly" offensive. It just describes a person, like Irish or whatever. Heck, I'm one of thousands that can be described as a "hillbilly", why are some acting like it's a bad thing?

 

[amauet1]

I've been thinking about the number of times each person was shot. It seems like all but one were a "hit and run" type thing where they make sure the victim could not survive and they didn't have to make sure they were dead. Did they have more time with KR? Did they feel they had enough time to do other things and just make sure he was dead before they left? Did they know he could not survive that one shot?

I think about that one shot to KR to Dud, It seemed almost like an after thought. Like we don't need anything (info) from him and bam.

 

[amauet1]

I think we're in agreement that the killers were familiar with the homes and habits of the family and that information may have been gained through visits or through interaction with unknowing close friends or family members.

Unknowing: BJM and other M family members

Knowing: W family and associates

Assumptions not yet validated:

That the Rhoden family had close friends who were psychologically prepared, motivated and sufficiently experienced and equipped to massacre their entire family, then return to normal everyday lives without showing any signs of having done this.

That the killers had to be people who had been in the homes of the victims and had personal relationships with them.



Motives:

Money
Drugs
Revenge or retribution for alleged criminal activities
Custody issues over child of HR


Known facts:

CR1 & KR were involved in an MJ grow op and other activities (cars, etc.) that brought them into regular contact with organized criminal groups.

Rhodens had been engaged in a conflict with members of the W family about custody of HR's child

Killers revealed they had adequate skills to get into and out of the UHR area without being observed
Killers were able to obtain weapons and dispose of them in a way LE could not track
Knew the best time of night to attack without
Killers were adequately armed, possibly including special equipment to navigate dark homes (flashlights, night vision, etc.)
Killers knew how to enter the homes and work quietly and quickly in the dark to find and execute multiple victims before they could raise an alarm and without causing collateral damage to children and themselves
Killers were able to take steps to hinder the LE investigation in each of the 4 homes

LE has executed multiple search warrants
LE is known to have taken DNA samples, examined computer & cell phone records from:

Manley family - LM, BJM, JM

Wagner family

Discussion:

The killers didn't have to have been in the homes before the murders. They could have been watching the homes before the murders, hence heightened activity by CR1 and others in the weeks leading up to the murders. Could be they noticed suspicious vehicles patrolling the area around their homes. They also seemed aware that someone was planning to attack them.

Were Rhodens hearing rumors? Had something happened recently to put them on alert? Business deal gone wrong? Escalating war of words over custody? Falling out between CR1 & G Wagner?

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...-case-because-authorities-clueless/431678001/

What we need to figure out is who realistically had the skills (not knowledge of properties) to pull off these murders and evade detection. We keep getting bogged down with the assumption that the killers had to be people who knew the Rhodens and visited their homes frequently. That's not required to pull off these murders. Worse, it puts us in the position of narrowing our focus and falling victim to confirmation bias.

After searching around, I found some ideas for overcoming confirmation bias in criminal investigations. One of the suggestions from experts is to take the people you suspect of the crime and find ways to prove them innocent. Try to poke holes in your own theory. I've been trying to do that myself over time. It helps to keep an open mind.


Maybe we'll make more progress by analyzing suspects and theories to see who we can take off the list. Is there any single item of information that could rule out a suspect or theory?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../tunnel-vision-in-the-criminal-justice-system

Another goal would be to make sure we have all the solid information that's available to use in investigating these murders. Things reported, then forgotten or overlooked, etc.

The last big suggestion is to find ways to advocate for these victims and keep the investigation moving forward in a productive way.

Just some suggestions.

On the motives, can we include "long simmering resentments unknown to us"
And do we need to include RRL incident the kids going after CRjr and showing up around his home. I understand what your saying I think. We need to simplify.

 

[amauet1]

I have a theory about KR, and, I'm going to try to broach it, and if it's against TOS, I apologize in advance. I think that CR1 was likely the top dog of the three men. GR was probably a helper, and KR more of an equal, not sure if FR was in with his Dad, or just "knew" what his family was into, and went on with his life.

The person(s) that killed them, was enraged, with this family. I think that it's possible that KR was hit first. They go to his place, and he knows them and welcomes them in, maybe thinking they were there to consider a deal. They tell him, that it's over, that the R's game is over, and they're all going to die tonight, (I think they would want CR1 & KR to know what was going to happen to DR and the kids, for their transgressions - punishment), KR pulls out money, to try and pay them off, show them their good for it, and will fall back into line, but it's too late, and they just shoot him dead. One of them, being familiar with the property, gathered up the cams, and anything else, and they went on their way to UHR.

CR1 may have been last, so they could tell him, what, exactly, he had brought upon his family, and how they'd died, they then just opened up on him, shooting him the most, but still ended with a head shot, like the others.

In other words,for example; If one hated someone, enough to kill them, and decided to kill their beloved dog too, as extra punishment, what good would it do, if the victim didn't know about their dog? The assailant, I think, would want them to know, before they executed them, every detail about what assailant(s) had done to their beloved pet, and how they, the victim, were the cause of their pet's suffering, and death, before they killed the human victim. Maybe even show them pictures, as proof. Then, kill the hated human, and maybe take their hatred out, with nine shots, just to make them suffer before the head shot.

I'd initially, and haven't completely dropped, my theory that they'd almost lost it at CR1's, but it could have been as simple as watching him suffer, as they told him what he brought down on his family.

Purely something that's been rattling around my poor old brain. I just think that this was partially hate/punishment driven, and what good is punishment, if the main people you are punishing, don't know about the other deaths?

On the camera thing. Couldn't they just take the vcr/computer they were attached to? I don't know about trail cams.

 

[amauet1]

What baffles me the most is there have been no info given in news leaks. Consider the number of people who witnessed a part of the investigation: a large local and state LE presence, crime scene investigators (on site and in lab), medical personnel, funeral home staff, the people that physically moved the trailers, and others I probably know nothing about. Who or what is insuring that this investigation stays quiet?

I know, the consequences of anyone saying anything most be immense. To me only "higher ups" have that kind of power.

 

[molly1255]

I keep going back to what LM had to say in his first interview, the day the murders were discovered. He said there had been a child custody thing. IMO, it appears to have been one of his first thoughts as to "why" these murders happened.

In my process of elimination of possible persons of interest, there's only one person who fits. And he now has sole custody, has moved away from the area and LE has searched properties that are connected to him and his family.

IMO, LE doesn't have the evidence they need to bring charges.