OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[pearl]

LE cannot legally remove a child from the biological parent; the state's department of child protective services has to do that[/B]

I wasn't clear enough with this part of my post. LE can physically remove a child from the scene of arrest, murder, etc. Removing the child from parental custody is accomplished by child services in front of a judge (juvenile judge if available). LE will accompany child protective service personnel if requested to do so. I taught school for 32 years. Teachers are mandated to report suspected child abuse, neglect, etc. Child protective services were at our school often.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

By the way. I had to have permission to take my son at age 9 with me. I also had to pay the $2,000 worth of travel to his fathers twice a year.

45 states do have an agreement if I remember right it’s the interstate compact for child custody and support. It allows for a streamlined process among other things to locate and return to a custodial parent a child removed illegally from anywhere in the us with very little paperwork.

Yes, this! Mine allows me to go 100 miles without permission. Anything over that, I’m supposed to get the approval of the court and my ex can contest it. However, people break that rule all the time and custody disputes from one state to another are very difficult to get anything done about when someone is in violation.

For example, my best friends 17 year old daughter moved to Georgia with her dad and decided she didn’t like it. My friend still had legal custody the entire time. My friend drove to GA when the father got put in jail and her child was left with the stepmom. GA LE became involved and they refused to help my friend get her daughter from the stepmoms care. They told her it was the state of GA and they didn’t issue the custody agreement. It was a mess.

In the case of B being taken to Alaska, his mother could and should file complaints over and over with the local family courts. GW will be supeoned to a show cause hearing because what he did was wrong and most likely in violation of the court orders. The courts can call it wrong all day long, they can find him in contempt, they can demand he send the child on a plane, but at the end of the day if he doesn’t do it, prosecution takes years and repeated trips to court. It’s a catch 22 and the one who gets hurt is the child.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I agree, and, JW has actually never been named a suspect.

Edit: He may have had some court proceedings, since they were unmarried, to name him as bio dad if they never signed that special form. Most don't. If they didn't, then, he had no rights according to Ohio custody laws. Most folks don't realize that there can be problems when you don't formalize paternity, if you are unwed.

My oldest was born in Ohio and we were not married at the time. The paternity affidavit is signed at the hospital right when the birth certificate is filled out. The only way it’s not signed by the father is if the fathers name is not going on the birth certificate or if the father is unknown.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I think when a parent dies, the remaining biological parent has custody if he wants it. It doesn't go through the courts, no questions are asked. Families are sacred: it's not up to police or the courts to decide what happens to children, unless there is a dispute between parents, or proof of serious neglect or abuse. It doesn't matter if you're a suspect in a murder case, that doesn't negate your rights as a parent to bring up your own child.

The only way it is disputed besides if the other parent murders the custodial parent, is if the custodial parent has a will and names someone as a guardian of a child in the event the parent passes away. It doesn’t mean the person named in the will is guaranteed to get the child. What it means is an opportunity is created where the person named in the will can challenge custody with the supporting will documents and a judge will make a final decision. I only know because I’ve covered my bases when it comes to my own children and if something were to happen to me before they are of legal age. They have a dad who is involved . However because he has not always made the best choices nor always set the best examples, he would not stand a chance against my mother if they were to be compared side by side.

 

[rsd1200]

My oldest was born in Ohio and we were not married at the time. The paternity affidavit is signed at the hospital right when the birth certificate is filled out. The only way it’s not signed by the father is if the fathers name is not going on the birth certificate or if the father is unknown.

It must be different here. It was a big ordeal because of no dna, in my granddaughter's 1/2 sib's case, when their father passed. Now this was back a few years ago, when my kid's friend had his child, in Ohio. He had zero rights. He had to chase the mother down to submit to dna, go to court, then, when he finally got that done, through the courts, he then had to go on to another family court, for visitation to be set in stone, and, then, he later got custody (she was a mess, she'd just disappear and drop the child on folks, and not return for days and days). It took him years though.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

But if JW was under suspicion for the murders early on, why was he given permanent custody of S in the first place? That was the first mistake. Even if LE didn't have enough evidence to charge him, LE had enough probable cause to delay granting him custody of S. They certainly were able to provide enough probable cause to temporarily place the other children in foster care, locations hidden from the public.

If, as we're speculating, the other child was hidden to avoid the possibility of kidnapping, why would the court proceed to allow a subject of the murder investigation to have permanent custody of S?

BBM

I have been thinking that might be the reason his legal fees for custody were so high. He may have had a fight with the state to get that permanent custody racking up some big attorney bills.

Being under suspicion is not enough reason to take kids from a parent. So many spouses have murdered their significant other but yet retain custody of the kids until they are arrested.

I believe that is the way with JW. They know he did it, they just can't prove it so a judge had to give him custody.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Yes, this! Mine allows me to go 100 miles without permission. Anything over that, I’m supposed to get the approval of the court and my ex can contest it. However, people break that rule all the time and custody disputes from one state to another are very difficult to get anything done about when someone is in violation.

For example, my best friends 17 year old daughter moved to Georgia with her dad and decided she didn’t like it. My friend still had legal custody the entire time. My friend drove to GA when the father got put in jail and her child was left with the stepmom. GA LE became involved and they refused to help my friend get her daughter from the stepmoms care. They told her it was the state of GA and they didn’t issue the custody agreement. It was a mess.

In the case of B being taken to Alaska, his mother could and should file complaints over and over with the local family courts. GW will be supeoned to a show cause hearing because what he did was wrong and most likely in violation of the court orders. The courts can call it wrong all day long, they can find him in contempt, they can demand he send the child on a plane, but at the end of the day if he doesn’t do it, prosecution takes years and repeated trips to court. It’s a catch 22 and the one who gets hurt is the child.

BBM
The Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act, a federal law, prevents an abducting parent from ever obtaining legal custody in another state where the court might be unaware that the child has been kidnapped. Under the Act, the court's order would be invalid.

Parental abduction of a child is a grave matter, and any parent who believes his child is at risk should take certain precautions, including: See Link

Ohio Divorce Online Parental Abduction Of Child

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

I have been thinking that might be the reason his legal fees for custody were so high. He may have had a fight with the state to get that permanent custody racking up some big attorney bills.

Being under suspicion is not enough reason to take kids from a parent. So many spouses have murdered their significant other but yet retain custody of the kids until they are arrested.

I believe that is the way with JW. They know he did it, they just can't prove it so a judge had to give him custody.

JMO

If they'd wanted to stop them, GW4's child was the route to take. They could have taken that route, legally, too. The Ws were not covering their tracks in their planned move to AK. Anyone with a computer and an internet connection, could have seen that coming.

 

[Betty P]

I think when a parent dies, the remaining biological parent has custody if he wants it. It doesn't go through the courts, no questions are asked. Families are sacred: it's not up to police or the courts to decide what happens to children, unless there is a dispute between parents, or proof of serious neglect or abuse. It doesn't matter if you're a suspect in a murder case, that doesn't negate your rights as a parent to bring up your own child.

Really? I'm sorry but I have to disagree. If a parent is suspected of murdering a child's parent, they don't automatically get custody.

Think of it this way: If the same situation happened (murder of 8 family members, including the mother of the child, other parent abusive, in custody battle) but the victims, child and suspect were all black people living in an urban area, would the outcome be the same?

 

[Betty P]

BBM

I have been thinking that might be the reason his legal fees for custody were so high. He may have had a fight with the state to get that permanent custody racking up some big attorney bills.

Being under suspicion is not enough reason to take kids from a parent. So many spouses have murdered their significant other but yet retain custody of the kids until they are arrested.

I believe that is the way with JW. They know he did it, they just can't prove it so a judge had to give him custody.

JMO

Thanks. Your post made me think of JW'S fundraising campaign in a different way. Maybe he needed a whole lot of money to get the judge to rule in his favor for custody. Greasing the wheels of justice, so to speak. JMO.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

BBM
The Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act, a federal law, prevents an abducting parent from ever obtaining legal custody in another state where the court might be unaware that the child has been kidnapped. Under the Act, the court's order would be invalid.

Parental abduction of a child is a grave matter, and any parent who believes his child is at risk should take certain precautions, including: See Link

Ohio Divorce Online Parental Abduction Of Child

That is how it’s supposed to work. I can tell your from experience when my ex husband took off with my kids to Cincinnati for 3 days, nothing was done because he had visitation rights. It does looks good on paper though. Without putting all my personal details out there, he had no drivers license and also had outstanding warrants in the state of Ohio. There was zip, zero, zilch done. I was told to ride it out and file a complaint. I filed a complaint, nothing happened. And please no one judge me by me sharing what a piece he is...that’s why I divorced him. I’m the polar opposite.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

It must be different here. It was a big ordeal because of no dna, in my granddaughter's 1/2 sib's case, when their father passed. Now this was back a few years ago, when my kid's friend had his child, in Ohio. He had zero rights. He had to chase the mother down to submit to dna, go to court, then, when he finally got that done, through the courts, he then had to go on to another family court, for visitation to be set in stone, and, then, he later got custody (she was a mess, she'd just disappear and drop the child on folks, and not return for days and days). It took him years though.

I’m confused about your granddaughters 1/2 siblings case. Did the father pass before the child was born? And is your friends instance the same case or something different? Sorry, I’m not all there today.

 

[rsd1200]

That is how it’s supposed to work. I can tell your from experience when my ex husband took off with my kids to Cincinnati for 3 days, nothing was done because he had visitation rights. It does looks good on paper though. Without putting all my personal details out there, he had no drivers license and also had outstanding warrants in the state of Ohio. There was zip, zero, zilch done. I was told to ride it out and file a complaint. I filed a complaint, nothing happened. And please no one judge me by me sharing what a piece he is...that’s why I divorced him. I’m the polar opposite.

I completely understand. I won't go into details either but some of the things... geeze, I could write a book. It was just finally to the point of, NO, for the youngest to spend time with mine, unless his very responsible, relative, took them out for lunch somewhere (super nice relative). Then it was lunch, and back home, unless the responsible relative wanted to sit and visit for a spell, at his place (and that was a big ole understandable nopers). The relative went out of their way to do this, and he was absolutely, completely, unappreciative.

 

[rsd1200]

I’m confused about your granddaughters 1/2 siblings case. Did the father pass before the child was born? And is your friends instance the same case or something different? Sorry, I’m not all there today.

Sorry, I'm all over the place. My child's friend's case is totally different, but occurred about 8 or 9 years ago so it may not have been within the time-frame that they changed things, but, she may very well have had the child and not called him to the hospital. She was a nut from what I understand. Drugs probably were not out of the question.

With my granddaughter's 1/2 sib; My daughter and the father of her child, did the whole thing up all legal, and it was still a bit tense at times, while drawing up custody papers. The papers broke it down to who got the child on what holidays, stated that they'd switch holidays every other year, how much child support he'd pay, how many weeks during the summer he would get visitation, etc... They had to complete dna test first, before family court would set it up though, because they were unmarried. So, because they had dotted the i-s and crossed the ts, my granddaughter was covered under his benefits, when he passed. There were no snags at all. My grandchild's father died, after my daughter, and him, had moved on. He had a fiance and another baby on the way. Three days after the baby arrived, he died. His parents, nor the mother, or anyone else, thought anything about any problems, b/c his name was on the birth cert., so, his parents had him cremated... The powers that be, said, we are sorry, but you were unwed, so we have to have dna proof that he was the father, to process his benefits to your child. So, his father, mother, and my grandchild, and her 1/2 sib, all had to go to a place in the city, and submit their dna, because, they couldn't get it from their father. I think they called it familial dna. It was very sad, but had to be done, so she would be legally entitled to benefits.

 

[rsd1200]

Hope it's not against TOS, but I read that HHG's grandpa passed. Thought I'd share so folks could send up some prayers, good vibes, or warm thoughts, for comfort for her grandma, and the family.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Sorry, I'm all over the place. My child's friend's case is totally different, but occurred about 8 or 9 years ago so it may not have been within the time-frame that they changed things, but, she may very well have had the child and not called him to the hospital. She was a nut from what I understand. Drugs probably were not out of the question.

With my granddaughter's 1/2 sib; My daughter and the father of her child, did the whole thing up all legal, and it was still a bit tense at times, while drawing up custody papers. The papers broke it down to who got the child on what holidays, stated that they'd switch holidays every other year, how much child support he'd pay, how many weeks during the summer he would get visitation, etc... They had to complete dna test first, before family court would set it up though, because they were unmarried. So, because they had dotted the i-s and crossed the ts, my granddaughter was covered under his benefits, when he passed. There were no snags at all. My grandchild's father died, after my daughter, and him, had moved on. He had a fiance and another baby on the way. Three days after the baby arrived, he died. His parents, nor the mother, or anyone else, thought anything about any problems, b/c his name was on the birth cert., so, his parents had him cremated... The powers that be, said, we are sorry, but you were unwed, so we have to have dna proof that he was the father, to process his benefits to your child. So, his father, mother, and my grandchild, and her 1/2 sib, all had to go to a place in the city, and submit their dna, because, they couldn't get it from their father. I think they called it familial dna. It was very sad, but had to be done, so she would be legally entitled to benefits.

Oh wow. That’s terrible about your granddaughters half sibling and your granddaughter losing their father. So sad for the kids. I know the SSA is very strict about DNA in the event a newborns parent passes away. I don’t know the specifics, but I know of one person who’s boyfriend died while she was pregnant with the child, but somehow they knew to obtain the mans DNA before he was buried.

And in regards to your daughter and him having to go through all that, I’m not sure either. Maybe OH changed the paperwork after I had my oldest, which was years ago. We signed the paternity affidavit in the hospital AND it had to be done because we weren’t yet married. They wouldn’t allow his name on the birth certificate without it. I remember my ex had to go get something notarized before they would let him sign. When he got back they brought the paternity affadvit in along with the birth certificate. I actually never even knew what the paternity affidavit was until my ex’s insurance at the time requested it for insurance coverage on our son. Reading the back of it, it states an unwed mother is assumed custody of the child.

Anyways, I wonder if JW was ever made to take a paternity test for S after HMR died. He may not have been. I feel like since he had S at the time of HMR’s death, he probably filed for emergency custody and as soon as a death certificate was issued, he probably went back and filed the final paperwork. As well as going to the SSA office to get his monthly check for S. It’s not expensive to file those papers in the family courts for custody, especially when no one is contesting your request.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Hope it's not against TOS, but I read that HHG's grandpa passed. Thought I'd share so folks could send up some prayers, good vibes, or warm thoughts, for comfort for her grandma, and the family.

So sad. Prayers, good vibes, and love going out to Hannah’s family. I’m sure she welcomed him home with a big hug and now he has all the answers he wondered about the last years of his life.

 

[Betty P]

So

Hope it's not against TOS, but I read that HHG's grandpa passed. Thought I'd share so folks could send up some prayers, good vibes, or warm thoughts, for comfort for her grandma, and the family.

So sorry to hear that news. Their family has experienced so much tragedy. Prayers for them in coping with another loss.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

But if JW was under suspicion for the murders early on, why was he given permanent custody of S in the first place? That was the first mistake. Even if LE didn't have enough evidence to charge him, LE had enough probable cause to delay granting him custody of S. They certainly were able to provide enough probable cause to temporarily place the other children in foster care, locations hidden from the public.

If, as we're speculating, the other child was hidden to avoid the possibility of kidnapping, why would the court proceed to allow a subject of the murder investigation to have permanent custody of S?

Ya know, I don’t understand this at all. Especially with the statements about the family being targeted. It was played off well by JW that it was a coincidence that S was not home at the time. Even with the coincidence of her not being at home, one side of her entire immediate family targeted and murdered while 3 other very young minors were present. It just seems that fact alone would have been enough to warrant putting S in protective custody as well, regardless of who the suspects were or weren’t. I would almost guarantee that B and CRob, had some kind of protection and were not staying somewhere that could easily be known in the first days after the murders.

 

[rsd1200]

Oh wow. That’s terrible about your granddaughters half sibling and your granddaughter losing their father. So sad for the kids. I know the SSA is very strict about DNA in the event a newborns parent passes away. I don’t know the specifics, but I know of one person who’s boyfriend died while she was pregnant with the child, but somehow they knew to obtain the mans DNA before he was buried.

And in regards to your daughter and him having to go through all that, I’m not sure either. Maybe OH changed the paperwork after I had my oldest, which was years ago. We signed the paternity affidavit in the hospital AND it had to be done because we weren’t yet married. They wouldn’t allow his name on the birth certificate without it. I remember my ex had to go get something notarized before they would let him sign. When he got back they brought the paternity affadvit in along with the birth certificate. I actually never even knew what the paternity affidavit was until my ex’s insurance at the time requested it for insurance coverage on our son. Reading the back of it, it states an unwed mother is assumed custody of the child.

Anyways, I wonder if JW was ever made to take a paternity test for S after HMR died. He may not have been. I feel like since he had S at the time of HMR’s death, he probably filed for emergency custody and as soon as a death certificate was issued, he probably went back and filed the final paperwork. As well as going to the SSA office to get his monthly check for S. It’s not expensive to file those papers in the family courts for custody, especially when no one is contesting your request.

The guy in Ohio was just one of my kid's friends. No children involved between him and my child. He had a terrible time tracking that woman down, who he fathered a child with, trying to get visits and then, ultimately, custody.

If he had not, for S to be eligible for his benefits, and to prove he was the bio father, he likely would have had to have taken the dna if he hadn't prior. It would have cost him too. That stuff isn't free (Unless you turn out to be NOT the father, then you aren't charged.).

Here's more about the ways to establish paternity;

It is important to note that establishing paternity is not the final step in establishing a man’s rights to a child as the father. The father, after legally establishing paternity in the State of Ohio, must petition the Court and seek orders establishing parental rights including parenting time (visitation), custody, child support, and the right to claim the child as a dependent on tax returns.

How Does an Unmarried Father Establish Paternity in Ohio


Kentucky

A child born to a married couple is considered legitimate in the eyes of the law. However, the fact that a person's name appears on a birth certificate is not conclusive proof of paternity. Since there is no requirement that a father sign a birth certificate, a mother may list anyone whom she believes is, or wants to be, the father.

Paternity also secures the right to inherit, the right to access personal information about the known health risks and profiles of the paternal family, and the right to sue for harm or death of the father, resulting in loss to the child. Likewise, a child for whom parentage has been established may also be eligible to receive workers' compensation benefits resulting from the father's death, or other dependent-based governmental assistance.

www.divorceinkentucky.com/paternity-in-Kentucky.htm

Edit: I've known of instances where there has been issues with the young parents fighting before the baby even arrives. No one wants the father on the birth cert. Mom nor Dad. Then, later, they get back together, and never think about it. It's completely voluntary that they sign off on the paperwork. The fathers cannot know, 100%, unless it is a very committed and long term relationship, that the child is theirs, sometimes, so they may be reluctant to sign til a dna test is done. Finances, for young people, dictate that they put that off, if they get back together, and are all happy again. They split? Then the subject of dna comes back up b/c of visitation and child support. Young kids just don't think of these things. I actually nudged my daughter along into doing the whole custody and dna thing in family court. I like stuff written in stone, all nice and legal.