UNSOLVED Oh - Pike County: 8 People From One Family Dead As Police Hunt For Killer(s) #33

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  • #1,581
All property is being held in probate. It’s another way to hold the estates hostage until Le can obtain the evidence they need to prosecute. It’s an old lawyers trick.

I think the youngest were collateral. KR was a killing for something he recently did very wrong to one or more of the master planners. He was most likely a part of that master murder plan and he made someone mad.

It seems a human life has very little value to these people.

What possible evidence could the surviving family members provide? There's nothing left. LE has it all.

It's like the women in the "Gone: Forgotten Women of Ohio" documentary said: If you talk to LE, you end up dead.
Personally, I would like LE to tell us if any of the victims of the Rhoden Family Massacre were working as informants for them at the time of their death.

In the "Gone" documentary, some of the women were pressured to work as informants for LE under threat of losing custody of their children. These women would inform LE of identities and activities of criminals in the local drug & prostitution trade. At some point, LE was suspected of leaking information about these informants to the drug dealers, after which the women informants would disappear or turn up dead. The murders then went cold. The disappearances were written off as "suicide", even when evidence revealed otherwise. Key information (including written notes, texts, voice recordings, etc. gathered by the women informants) disappeared, some after it had been taken into evidence by LE.

Most of the cases highlighted in the "Gone" documentary were in Chillicothe, Ross County, OH and Scioto County, OH, both counties adjacent to Pike County.

'Gone' is gone but cases remain in limbo
 
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  • #1,582
For those who think there's an absolute need for DeWine and LE to keep punishing the surviving relatives of the Rhoden family victims, can you explain why the family who has been under "laser focus" has not been punished in any way? DeWine & LE have not thrown up any roadblocks available to them to put pressure on the "laser focus family". No pressure. Their properties were not searched prior to them leaving for AK. No restrictions have been put on their movements. Not a single member of the family has been called in for questioning.

How do you investigate your prime "laser focus" in a heinous murder investigation if you never question them and wait until they leave the state to search their properties and possessions they left behind? How do DeWine, Junk and the local courts allow the "laser focus" family to gain full legal custody of HR's young daughter, when the father is the focus of the investigation into the murder of her mother and family? Custody has been denied parents based on far less evidence than DeWine, Junk and the courts had available.
 
  • #1,583
Does this family own a tremendous amount of land that has now been passed down or resold after the murders? Even if some of the victims were just at the wrong place at the wrong time?

By the way. Which victims do y'all think was just collateral damage?

The land is not what I'd call a "tremendous" amount. It's not been passed down yet, nor sold.

If I had to choose collateral damage? Maybe CR2. I go back and forth on that though. HG ended up dead b/c she fell in love with FR, but, she had to go. GR was close to the family. If he was traveling back and forth, they waited for him.
 
  • #1,584
Has anyone here ever wondered why local LE offers no protection or assistance to surviving Rhoden family members in light of:

  • the heinous and extremely violent nature of the murders of 8 people
  • the continued presence in the community of the people who murdered their family members
  • the prevalence of dangerous, unprosecuted criminals in the area involved in drug activity
  • ongoing occurrences of murders in the area by criminal factions related to drugs and other organized criminal activity
  • the alleged presence of the violent gang MS 13, according to the local sheriff

Sheriff: MS-13 gang heading to Pike County to spread heavily laced heroin, “take out snitches”

Instead, all they're told is that they need to keep a gun. It should come as no surprise that their cousin Violet was killed. These people have been living the last nearly 3 yrs as if they have a target on their back.
 
  • #1,585
For those who think there's an absolute need for DeWine and LE to keep punishing the surviving relatives of the Rhoden family victims, can you explain why the family who has been under "laser focus" has not been punished in any way? DeWine & LE have not thrown up any roadblocks available to them to put pressure on the "laser focus family". No pressure. Their properties were not searched prior to them leaving for AK. No restrictions have been put on their movements. Not a single member of the family has been called in for questioning.

How do you investigate your prime "laser focus" in a heinous murder investigation if you never question them and wait until they leave the state to search their properties and possessions they left behind? How do DeWine, Junk and the local courts allow the "laser focus" family to gain full legal custody of HR's young daughter, when the father is the focus of the investigation into the murder of her mother and family? Custody has been denied parents based on far less evidence than DeWine, Junk and the courts had available.

BBM
They have been questioned. They may still be being questioned, their properties were just recently searched. I've not seen them looking at anyone else for some time. We aren't even sure they left town for more than a couple months, and, their dna in those trailers would not be uncommon. Especially GW4's, and JW's. This is said to have been well planned. As you said, folks know more about dna now, and they'd prefer not to leave it at the crime scene(s), or if they did, they knew it was dna that was likely going to show up anyway, and not be suspicious for it to be there. IF, it were professionals, they likely aren't going to be in the database, if they did get sloppy and leave something behind.

What about the red truck? It may have been seen in the neighborhood tooling around the area a few weeks prior. You can't pin a conviction on someone because their truck was seen somewhere. We do not know who was driving that vehicle unless there is a witness to put that person in that vehicle. My ex's car was found at the site of a shake and bake. Although he was not a good human being for the large part of his life, he didn't have a thing to do with that, that was too much like work. He was clueless, and the car was deemed useless.

From a jurist standpoint, I don't see a conviction, of the folks that they have a focus on, with what I've been given
 
  • #1,586
Check out the links provided above and in Violet's thread here at WS. DeWine's office was hinting at suicide early on (why DeWine's office was taking the lead in this investigation, as well as the lead in releasing info to the news media is interesting in and of itself). When social media and reporters began questioning such a quick declaration, they backed off. It's been 2 months now, toxicology, DNA and other reports should be available by now, but there's only silence.

There are some posts in Violet's thread here where we were posting responses to hints of suicide in the news media. Those news reports were later changed to say "undetermined". It was interesting.
I’m truly not hit picking, but want to clarify.

There is a named suspect in VRT’s case and next week will be 3 months.

Follow the connections of that suspect and it’s eye opening.
 
  • #1,587
BBM
They have been questioned. They may still be being questioned, their properties were just recently searched. I've not seen them looking at anyone else for some time. We aren't even sure they left town for more than a couple months, and, their dna in those trailers would not be uncommon. Especially GW4's, and JW's. This is said to have been well planned. As you said, folks know more about dna now, and they'd prefer not to leave it at the crime scene(s), or if they did, they knew it was dna that was likely going to show up anyway, and not be suspicious for it to be there. IF, it were professionals, they likely aren't going to be in the database, if they did get sloppy and leave something behind.

What about the red truck? It may have been seen in the neighborhood tooling around the area a few weeks prior. You can't pin a conviction on someone because their truck was seen somewhere. We do not know who was driving that vehicle unless there is a witness to put that person in that vehicle. My ex's car was found at the site of a shake and bake. Although he was not a good human being for the large part of his life, he didn't have a thing to do with that, that was too much like work. He was clueless, and the car was deemed useless.

From a jurist standpoint, I don't see a conviction, of the folks that they have a focus on, with what I've been given

  • Re the red truck, LE seemed sufficiently convinced it was used in "a murder" that it was allowed as grounds to place a GPS tracker on it and arrest James Manley when he removed it. A judge would require some pretty solid evidence on the use of that red truck in the murder before allowing placement of the monitor. Yet the person who owned the truck at the time of the Rhoden murders was never arrested or even questioned.

  • If the DNA is so weak and insignificant to the case, why has LE asked so many people to submit DNA. Given their county government budget concerns, they must have pretty good reason to be taking those samples. They would already expect JM, LM, and BJM DNA to be at the scenes as they're close relatives who visited there. So why go to all the trouble and expense of making them submit DNA samples? JMO, the DNA samples they have come from a significant source, perhaps blood shed by the perps at the scene. It's reasonable to assume one or more of the killers was injured, most likely when fighting with CR1.
  • Since LE never bothered to search the properties of the W family until after they were in AK, it's probably safe to assume they didn't ask them to submit to DNA testing. Given they also had a defense attorney, he has probably not allowed them to do so since then.
  • Why hasn't DeWine or anyone from Pike County LE gone to AK to question the W family?
 
  • #1,588
I’m truly not hit picking, but want to clarify.

There is a named suspect in VRT’s case and next week will be 3 months.

Follow the connections of that suspect and it’s eye opening.

Yes, it's interesting. A named suspect, but no charges filed. No news on the results of VRT's other testing (toxicology, DNA, etc.). Have they sent the case to the Pike County Grand Jury yet or are they just going to let it sit with no charges filed? Total silence on that case, which is unusual considering the history of the suspect.
 
  • #1,589
  • Re the red truck, LE seemed sufficiently convinced it was used in "a murder" that it was allowed as grounds to place a GPS tracker on it and arrest James Manley when he removed it. A judge would require some pretty solid evidence on the use of that red truck in the murder before allowing placement of the monitor. Yet the person who owned the truck at the time of the Rhoden murders was never arrested or even questioned.
  • If the DNA is so weak and insignificant to the case, why has LE asked so many people to submit DNA. Given their county government budget concerns, they must have pretty good reason to be taking those samples. They would already expect JM, LM, and BJM DNA to be at the scenes as they're close relatives who visited there. So why go to all the trouble and expense of making them submit DNA samples? JMO, the DNA samples they have come from a significant source, perhaps blood shed by the perps at the scene. It's reasonable to assume one or more of the killers was injured, most likely when fighting with CR1.
  • Since LE never bothered to search the properties of the W family until after they were in AK, it's probably safe to assume they didn't ask them to submit to DNA testing. Given they also had a defense attorney, he has probably not allowed them to do so since then.
  • Why hasn't DeWine or anyone from Pike County LE gone to AK to question the W family?
You don't know who has or who has not been questioned or had DNA taken.

Because I have no connection to the case I can be objective and not try to make things be that aren't. The emotionalism seems to cloud minds and make the unreal seem real.
 
  • #1,590
You don't know who has or who has not been questioned or had DNA taken.

Because I have no connection to the case I can be objective and not try to make things be that aren't. The emotionalism seems to cloud minds and make the unreal seem real.

If LE has been taking DNA samples from their primary suspects, why has no one been arrested. They've already indicated they have quite a bit of evidence, according to their most recent anniversary statement. They could also submit the perp's DNA to Parabon for a phenotype profile. Could also submit it to an online, open source web site for analysis of familial DNA.

One of my top theories from the start was that the murders were linked to "snitching" or suspected "snitching" activity by higher ups in drug trafficking who wanted to take the heat off and send a message to others in the drug network. I've always assumed it might have been CR1, KR or GR who had been tapped by LE to snitch.

But what if, like the cases of women snitches in Chillicothe & Scioto county, LE had forced one of the victims to work as an informant or face losing custody of their children? Custody was the main motivator used by LE to force many of the Chilli & Scioto County women to snitch. It's just something to think about, just a theory.

It's also worth considering that the major problems LE in southeast Ohio is having with managing their drug trafficking/informant/plea bargaining problem is the result of being "outfoxed" by drug kingpins. Maybe the higher ups in drug trafficking have learned how to game LE's drug informant program to use it against them. To put LE and prosecutors in the position of having to protect dangerous murdering drug dealers out in their communities because they began as informants. I can see where clever criminals can manipulate the process to put LE in a compromising position over and over by making them think they're getting ahead by giving plea deals or protecting known dealers, only to have them start murdering informants. Next thing they know, LE is having to cover up more and more messes in hopes of landing the big drug sting that always seems to be just around the corner. As it moves along, it keeps pulling in LE who are higher and higher up the criminal justice food chain. Pretty soon, it becomes a big complicated mess that's impossible to unwind without causing some real damage. JMO, just something to think about.
 
  • #1,591
  • Re the red truck, LE seemed sufficiently convinced it was used in "a murder" that it was allowed as grounds to place a GPS tracker on it and arrest James Manley when he removed it. A judge would require some pretty solid evidence on the use of that red truck in the murder before allowing placement of the monitor. Yet the person who owned the truck at the time of the Rhoden murders was never arrested or even questioned.
  • If the DNA is so weak and insignificant to the case, why has LE asked so many people to submit DNA. Given their county government budget concerns, they must have pretty good reason to be taking those samples. They would already expect JM, LM, and BJM DNA to be at the scenes as they're close relatives who visited there. So why go to all the trouble and expense of making them submit DNA samples? JMO, the DNA samples they have come from a significant source, perhaps blood shed by the perps at the scene. It's reasonable to assume one or more of the killers was injured, most likely when fighting with CR1.
  • Since LE never bothered to search the properties of the W family until after they were in AK, it's probably safe to assume they didn't ask them to submit to DNA testing. Given they also had a defense attorney, he has probably not allowed them to do so since then.
  • Why hasn't DeWine or anyone from Pike County LE gone to AK to question the W family?

The truck didn't murder anyone. Ya gotta see the perps IN the truck, at the time of the murder or riding around. Someone may have, or they may have just seen a red truck, and took note of the plates. We watch out for each other, odd vehicles, strangers, etc... in my little area here.

I'd say they did, since JW is S's father, however;
You have the right to refuse to allow police to conduct a cheek swab. It is legal for police to ask for a voluntary DNA sample but they must be careful about how they phrase the request. A Fourth Amendment violation can occur if police mislead an individual; for example, by saying he or she has a duty to provide a sample or saying that the person will be treated as a suspect for refusing. The courts have repeatedly determined that the taking of DNA constitutes a “search” under the Fourth Amendment. It is also improper for police to threaten to report names to the press of those refusing to provide a sample.

FWIW, they'd have to have a court order to get mine, whether I was involved in a crime, or not.

http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/pageDocuments/I6W7Q3D7RM.pdf
 
  • #1,592
The truck didn't murder anyone. Ya gotta see the perps IN the truck, at the time of the murder or riding around.
...
I'd say they did, since JW is S's father, however;
You have the right to refuse to allow police to conduct a cheek swab.

Respectfully snipped for reply

Re the red truck, yes we can assume LE identified the person who was driving the truck the night of the murders. That information should have brought them much farther along in their investigation, though. For LE to use the red truck against JM, when they likely knew someone sold it to him to set him up to look guilty is a whole other kettle of fish. Why would they do that? Didn't BCI, Junk & PCSO realize this move would make their motives look suspect? If they were so eager to use trumped up evidence against JM, why didn't they exhibit the same zeal to go after the person who was driving it the night of the murders?

If the driver of the red truck was JW or someone close to him, LE should have had an arrest on some charge before he was given custody of S and allowed to move to AK. If LE had access to JW's DNA, as a result of a paternity test, and it matched DNA found at the crime scene, why was there no arrest or sting of some kind? Is LE trying to protect JW and family in hopes of going for bigger fish in the drug trafficking network? If so, why did they try to set up JM, then force him into the PC Grand Jury system? Are they trying to get more evidence and information or trying to squelch discovery of more?

JMO, linking JW to the red truck LE claims was connected to the murders coupled with being the last person to see HR and the ongoing custody battle should have been enough to warrant an arrest before he was allowed to move to AK. Add in DNA evidence and it should be a slam dunk. Even if the DNA at the crime scene came from someone else in the W family, the familial DNA connection should be sufficient to make an arrest. I can't imagine JW's other family members spent much time hanging out, leaving DNA in the Rhoden homes.
 
  • #1,593
Respectfully snipped for reply

Re the red truck, yes we can assume LE identified the person who was driving the truck the night of the murders. That information should have brought them much farther along in their investigation, though. For LE to use the red truck against JM, when they likely knew someone sold it to him to set him up to look guilty is a whole other kettle of fish. Why would they do that? Didn't BCI, Junk & PCSO realize this move would make their motives look suspect? If they were so eager to use trumped up evidence against JM, why didn't they exhibit the same zeal to go after the person who was driving it the night of the murders?

If the driver of the red truck was JW or someone close to him, LE should have had an arrest on some charge before he was given custody of S and allowed to move to AK. If LE had access to JW's DNA, as a result of a paternity test, and it matched DNA found at the crime scene, why was there no arrest or sting of some kind? Is LE trying to protect JW and family in hopes of going for bigger fish in the drug trafficking network? If so, why did they try to set up JM, then force him into the PC Grand Jury system? Are they trying to get more evidence and information or trying to squelch discovery of more?

JMO, linking JW to the red truck LE claims was connected to the murders coupled with being the last person to see HR and the ongoing custody battle should have been enough to warrant an arrest before he was allowed to move to AK. Add in DNA evidence and it should be a slam dunk. Even if the DNA at the crime scene came from someone else in the W family, the familial DNA connection should be sufficient to make an arrest. I can't imagine JW's other family members spent much time hanging out, leaving DNA in the Rhoden homes.

Well, no, we can't assume they knew who was driving that red truck. Who saw that person(s) in that truck and could make them out, in the middle of the night? Just because someone's vehicle was somewhere it shouldn't be, doesn't mean they were inside of it, or knew it was even there. We can assume that someone saw the red truck tooling around, and that LE had been looking for it, and when it showed up in JM's driveway, they had enough to go to the judge, and get a warrant, to put a tracker on the truck. They had to have convincing evidence to do so.

JM is probably under a gag order, so we don't know what he told the grand jury. I don't think that JM is stupid. Especially not stupid enough to fall for a set up, re; the truck, in your scenario. This region may be denigrated by others, and we may have our own language, and way of life, but we are far from stupid. He knows cars and trucks. He's knowledgeable in that area, and my guess is, he's knowledgeable about people who try to screw you, especially if you don't have a lot, and would see a set up coming, a mile away.

We also do not know how many other trackers were put on other folks' vehicles. Only reason we know about JM, is that he took it off and destroyed it (I'd have likely left it on and drove the same ole boring route to work and back each day, or, it would have "fallen off" on my way to work...

That text may have perked their ears up too. The one that JW claims never happened, JM's Dad said it did happen. I guess only LE knows for sure. The Ws handed over their electronics to LE early on, gave their DNA, were repeatedly interviewed by BCI, and told authorities that they were moving to AK, have had their properties, the properties of their acquaintance, and their family members, searched, twice now, that we know of, so yes, they've been treated with a focus from the git go.

I've been up to my elbows in alligators, so, I'm not remembering JW, or any of the Ws, owning that old red truck. Dropping off or picking up a child, as one has, for the past several years, is not enough to charge someone with murder. If stopping by someone's home, prior to their being murdered, is a reason to jail and convict someone, then this country has strayed far from our constitution.

The Ws may have very well done this, or had it done, (I recall repeatedly stating that I believe it to be possible, jut not custody as the primary cause, but I'm allowed other theories as well.), but, dropping off a child, or, riding around in an old truck, does not show me the burden of proof that they murdered a family of eight in a most heinous, manner. I'd have to have more proof than what I've seen, thus far, to send them to jail for life. Four percent of the folks on death row are innocent. That may not seem like a lot, but it does if you are in that four percent.

I'm not privy to what LE has or doesn't have. Anyone on here connected to Pike County LE who might be knowledgeable about that?
 
  • #1,594
Check out the links provided above and in Violet's thread here at WS. DeWine's office was hinting at suicide early on (why DeWine's office was taking the lead in this investigation, as well as the lead in releasing info to the news media is interesting in and of itself). When social media and reporters began questioning such a quick declaration, they backed off. It's been 2 months now, toxicology, DNA and other reports should be available by now, but there's only silence.

There are some posts in Violet's thread here where we were posting responses to hints of suicide in the news media. Those news reports were later changed to say "undetermined". It was interesting.

Her death went from probable, likely, or possible suicide(not sure of exact wording) to under investigation and never a word since. Also nothing more about the man beat to death, either...
 
  • #1,595
Well, no, we can't assume they knew who was driving that red truck. Who saw that person(s) in that truck and could make them out, in the middle of the night? Just because someone's vehicle was somewhere it shouldn't be, doesn't mean they were inside of it, or knew it was even there. We can assume that someone saw the red truck tooling around, and that LE had been looking for it, and when it showed up in JM's driveway, they had enough to go to the judge, and get a warrant, to put a tracker on the truck. They had to have convincing evidence to do so.

JM is probably under a gag order, so we don't know what he told the grand jury. I don't think that JM is stupid. Especially not stupid enough to fall for a set up, re; the truck, in your scenario. This region may be denigrated by others, and we may have our own language, and way of life, but we are far from stupid. He knows cars and trucks. He's knowledgeable in that area, and my guess is, he's knowledgeable about people who try to screw you, especially if you don't have a lot, and would see a set up coming, a mile away.

We also do not know how many other trackers were put on other folks' vehicles. Only reason we know about JM, is that he took it off and destroyed it (I'd have likely left it on and drove the same ole boring route to work and back each day, or, it would have "fallen off" on my way to work...

That text may have perked their ears up too. The one that JW claims never happened, JM's Dad said it did happen. I guess only LE knows for sure. The Ws handed over their electronics to LE early on, gave their DNA, were repeatedly interviewed by BCI, and told authorities that they were moving to AK, have had their properties, the properties of their acquaintance, and their family members, searched, twice now, that we know of, so yes, they've been treated with a focus from the git go.

I've been up to my elbows in alligators, so, I'm not remembering JW, or any of the Ws, owning that old red truck. Dropping off or picking up a child, as one has, for the past several years, is not enough to charge someone with murder. If stopping by someone's home, prior to their being murdered, is a reason to jail and convict someone, then this country has strayed far from our constitution.

The Ws may have very well done this, or had it done, (I recall repeatedly stating that I believe it to be possible, jut not custody as the primary cause, but I'm allowed other theories as well.), but, dropping off a child, or, riding around in an old truck, does not show me the burden of proof that they murdered a family of eight in a most heinous, manner. I'd have to have more proof than what I've seen, thus far, to send them to jail for life. Four percent of the folks on death row are innocent. That may not seem like a lot, but it does if you are in that four percent.

I'm not privy to what LE has or doesn't have. Anyone on here connected to Pike County LE who might be knowledgeable about that?

On that text message I believe that LM said LE told him that text was made. I don't think he said it was made.
 
  • #1,596
  • Re the red truck, LE seemed sufficiently convinced it was used in "a murder" that it was allowed as grounds to place a GPS tracker on it and arrest James Manley when he removed it. A judge would require some pretty solid evidence on the use of that red truck in the murder before allowing placement of the monitor. Yet the person who owned the truck at the time of the Rhoden murders was never arrested or even questioned.
  • If the DNA is so weak and insignificant to the case, why has LE asked so many people to submit DNA. Given their county government budget concerns, they must have pretty good reason to be taking those samples. They would already expect JM, LM, and BJM DNA to be at the scenes as they're close relatives who visited there. So why go to all the trouble and expense of making them submit DNA samples? JMO, the DNA samples they have come from a significant source, perhaps blood shed by the perps at the scene. It's reasonable to assume one or more of the killers was injured, most likely when fighting with CR1.
  • Since LE never bothered to search the properties of the W family until after they were in AK, it's probably safe to assume they didn't ask them to submit to DNA testing. Given they also had a defense attorney, he has probably not allowed them to do so since then.
  • Why hasn't DeWine or anyone from Pike County LE gone to AK to question the W family?

But...What murder was that truck used when it was used in the commission of a murder? We don't know. We can only assume...
 
  • #1,597
Betty P and rsd1200:
Whew! That was the best discussion I've read on the Rhoden murders in a long time.
 
  • #1,598
  • #1,599
But...What murder was that truck used when it was used in the commission of a murder? We don't know. We can only assume...

JMO, it's not a stretch to deduce that a judge wouldn't have approved placing a GPS tracker on JM's truck (and JW's truck as well) if the truck had been used for some other murder. It seems unlikely that JM was suspected by LE of being involved in two murders. If you check the crime stats for Pike County, there hadn't been many murders there prior to 2016.

Absent a link between the red truck and the Rhoden murders, there was no cause to place the GPS tracker. It was already a stretch for LE to name the red truck as key evidence when JM didn't own it when it was allegedly used for the murders. If LE had other cause to suspect JM, they didn't mention it to the judge.
 
  • #1,600
Betty P and rsd1200:
Whew! That was the best discussion I've read on the Rhoden murders in a long time.

Thanks! When you spend time away from this case while looking at other murder cases, the Rhoden murder investigation looks very unusual when you come back to it. Spend some time looking at, for example, the Mollie Tibbetts or Shanann Watts & children murders and the way LE and prosecutors are handling them, it's so completely different.
 
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