GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #1

[i.b.nora]

I love how we have to walk back from the victim being drunk assertion because sworn witness testimony is not as reliable as individual gut-feelings. Laughter.

Not sure how far removed some of you are from the partying years, Back when I was 16-19, drinking vodka would have been akin to drinking gasoline. My options were limited since I rarely had enough to buy a 4pk of wine coolers & have something left to tip the vagrant who bought it for me. But that is not the case today. Go take a gander at your local liquor store. Marshmallow, raspberry, caramel, whipped cream, watermelon...probably 40+ flavors of vodka that when dumped in the familiar round orange cooler of gatorade tastes better than any Boone's Farm & 3-4 times more potent. If we are to believe the victim was familiar at all these parties, but not a drinker, surely someone was deprived of their designated driver that night! I'm sure making a statement like that makes me a victim basher. Its called reality. Young girls and binge drinking is growing at such an alarming rate, the CDC is very concerned.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/10/chug-chug-chug-why-more-women-are-binge-drinking/

Now that I have seen more of the transcript, (thanks to Lois Lane's link to the additions made at that blog) the whole picture is becoming much clearer to me. When it first went up and I saw it, there were only 4 tiny snippets, now it begins to tell a more cohesive story of that night. I am thankful for that.

In addition to the Time magazine article that hollyjokers linked to, there is a recent compelling article in The Intelligencer / Wheeling News Register:

http://www.theintelligencer.net/pag...y/1420/Kids-and-alcohol--A-dangerous-mix.html

Kids and alcohol: A dangerous mix
Momsense
January 14, 2013 - Betsy Bethel

snip

"Let me start by saying I'm lucky to be alive. Most of us are. When we look back on the follies — OK, downright stupidity — of our youth, you sometimes have to wonder how some of us made the thinning-of-the-herd cut.
But now I'm all grown up, I have seen tragedy strike too many times, I have a better knowledge of how our bodies and brains work, and I now understand how dangerous certain things can be.

Binge drinking, for instance.

(Full disclosure: I serve as a volunteer on the Ohio County Substance Abuse Prevention Coaltion, one of the main purposes of which is "to prevent and reduce substance abuse with youth and families in Ohio County.")"

Much more...

I guess I just think there are bigger issues being brought to the fore by this case and that we as a society need to address those issues, all of them, and hopefully find some viable solutions. Teenage drinking has always been an issue but something new is happening. IMO.

 

[human]

Now that I have seen more of the transcript, (thanks to Lois Lane's link to the additions made at that blog) the whole picture is becoming much clearer to me. When it first went up and I saw it, there were only 4 tiny snippets, now it begins to tell a more cohesive story of that night. I am thankful for that.

In addition to the Time magazine article that hollyjokers linked to, there is a recent compelling article in The Intelligencer / Wheeling News Register:

http://www.theintelligencer.net/pag...y/1420/Kids-and-alcohol--A-dangerous-mix.html

Kids and alcohol: A dangerous mix
Momsense
January 14, 2013 - Betsy Bethel

snip

"Let me start by saying I'm lucky to be alive. Most of us are. When we look back on the follies — OK, downright stupidity — of our youth, you sometimes have to wonder how some of us made the thinning-of-the-herd cut.
But now I'm all grown up, I have seen tragedy strike too many times, I have a better knowledge of how our bodies and brains work, and I now understand how dangerous certain things can be.

Binge drinking, for instance.

(Full disclosure: I serve as a volunteer on the Ohio County Substance Abuse Prevention Coaltion, one of the main purposes of which is "to prevent and reduce substance abuse with youth and families in Ohio County.")"

Much more...

I guess I just think there are bigger issues being brought to the fore by this case and that we as a society need to address those issues, all of them, and hopefully find some viable solutions. Teenage drinking has always been an issue but something new is happening. IMO.

Teen drinking is an issue, I agree. But the adults in this case need some kind of intervention as well. It appears drunk partying teens are acceptable.

We do not know if the girl was drunk or she was given drugs. And I wonder if anyone would ever tell.

 

[i.b.nora]

Teen drinking is an issue, I agree. But the adults in this case need some kind of intervention as well. It appears drunk partying teens are acceptable.

We do not know if the girl was drunk or she was given drugs. And I wonder if anyone would ever tell.

Which is why I said: "we as a society need to address those issues, all of them". We need to look at the culture of our schools, of our sporting activities, of our home lives, how we parent, how we drink, how we are as kids, how we use the internet, how we do this and how we do that. It isn't simple, but it can be done in my opinion especially by a small group of people such as those living in and around Steubenville.

Perhaps the underemployed Jefferson County District Attorney could put together and implement a one or two or five year plan for community self improvement. Bring together all the disparate groups in a common cause.

The little bits of transcript from the hearing that I have read, indicate to me that only drinking was going on. Nor have I seen or read in any of the tweets that have been disclosed, that there were drugs. It is entirely possible that there were some drugs involved, but so far I have seen nothing other than speculation, and speculation is not proof of anything. Maybe I overlooked something regarding that issue?

 

[human]

Which is why I said: "we as a society need to address those issues, all of them". We need to look at the culture of our schools, of our sporting activities, of our home lives, how we parent, how we drink, how we are as kids, how we use the internet, how we do this and how we do that. It isn't simple, but it can be done in my opinion especially by a small group of people such as those living in and around Steubenville.

Perhaps the underemployed Jefferson County District Attorney could put together and implement a one or two or five year plan for community self improvement. Bring together all the disparate groups in a common cause.

The little bits of transcript from the hearing that I have read, indicate to me that only drinking was going on. Nor have I seen or read in any of the tweets that have been disclosed, that there were drugs. It is entirely possible that there were some drugs involved, but so far I have seen nothing other than speculation, and speculation is not proof of anything. Maybe I overlooked something regarding that issue?

She could have been given roofies. There is no way to know.

 

[hollyjokers]

<modsnip> I don't think these arguments are debate-worthy, but I will leave you with a few (obvious) points:

* It doesn't matter if a victim was drunk, or what she drank. If she did not consent, or did not have the ability to consent, it is rape

I agree it isn't important, so why do people keep insisting on putting it out there that she was probably roofied, when not one person directly involved has even hinted that? Not her own attorney, the prosecutor, sheriff or police chief. What's up with the roofie-conspiracy folks? Can't throw their support fully behind her unless she's a lily-white, virginal teetotaler? She sounds like a lot of young girls to me. Maybe she made some choices that night she'd like to do differently, or not. But regardless, if she was sexually assaulted at any point while unable to consent, the fault is on the people who committed the assault.

* Someone who is unconscious and does not respond is not "sleeping"

Since neither of us were there, we can't be sure either way. Here's the link to the testimonies:

http://leestranahan.com/category/steubenville/page/3/

*Sex with someone who is unconscious is rape

Agreed 100%

* The description of gang rape is not "locker room talk"

A. 2 people does not constitute a gang rape. And B. if the "witnesses" aren't actually present and are making filthy comments AFTER the fact (or before the fact, i.e. the "No sympathy for " tweet that was made three months prior) then it is little more than "locker room talk". IMO, of course.

* It's "sexual assault" not "being interfered with"

You're right. The prosecutor & witness used the word 'fingered'. I was uncomfortable wording it that way.

* Rape is a crime, not a "bad decision"

Its both.

* Awkward 'lulz' at the expense of a sixteen-year-old rape victim are not funny.

I was mocking the Anonymous Knightsec cowards who have created a giant clusterfart that benefits & supports no one, and now seem to be diving for cover. Lulz, butthurt & oh noes! are their phrases of choice.

Have a nice weekend, all!

You too!

 

[human]

I don't think the issue of the girl being drunk or not has anything to do with her being raped.

But I do not agree with the idea that she should be accused of being drunk. We have no idea if she was drugged.

 

[lonetraveler]

hollyjokers, I respect your perspective, but imo it doesnt matter whether she was partying or not. Hitting that note over and over again seems to distract from her heinous experience being gang raped. And filmed.

In this rape case, there are adults at the beginning of every single bottle of booze consumed that night. I am curious as to why the origin of the liquor has not been publicized far and wide. Surely that was part of the investigation.

JMO but it think that the source of the booze is part of the coverup as well and that is why the adults have not been identified.

 

[LinTX]

hollyjokers, since AbbyR may not be back in this thread to ask, you might want to edit your post to make your own comments not part of the quote from her. Maybe change the font color and make a note of that. The way it posted is a little confusing.

 

[hollyjokers]

Sorry about that, I'm on my phone. I tried to do html code on another post & it didn't work. I'll see what I can do.

 

[wanttohelp]

Cole said he shot a video of sexual conduct in his car between Mays and the victim as they were driving to Cole's house. Cole said he later deleted the video from his phone.

http://hsconnect.com/page/content.detail/id/578936/Teen-rape-case-moves-forward.html?nav=5010

wouldnt this be considered child production?

 

[wanttohelp]

reading transcripts at link, which this guys statement are just ridiculous, asleep!!!!!!

 

[Steely Dan]

Ok HJ, let's say she was drunk. What difference does it make?

 

[LinTX]

According to this article, yes, it was gang rape, and no it wasn't locker room talk - it was a continuation of humiliating the victim. It may have also been an attempt to shame the victim into silence:

What is Gang Rape?
Gang rape is when two or more offenders act together to rape the same victim. The offenders include those who actually obtain sexual relations with the victim as well as those who threaten or use force to make the victim submit but do not themselves have sexual relations.

Gang rape tends to have added humiliation to the victim, beyond that experienced by a single-assailant acquaintance rapes. There are many individuals who watched, participated, or were in the other room knowing what was going on and doing nothing to stop it. The humiliation grows after the attack as the persons involved in the gang rape brag about their conquest. The victim may also feel very betrayed by people that are seen in everyday life.

BBM
More in this article, including characteristics of a gang rape, why/how the victim is chosen, etc. Quite a bit here that sounds familiar to this case, IMO.
http://www.gmu.edu/depts/unilife/sas/definitions/types/gang.php

 

[Steely Dan]

Since neither of us were there, we can't be sure either way. Here's the link to the testimonies:

http://leestranahan.com/category/steubenville/page/3/

Respectfully snipped for brevity. Let's examine that link. First we'll look at MC's testimony. Here's the part I want to focus on. The red lines were added by me.

JMO, but the prosecutor seems to be asking leading questions. I don't know if this is ok in grand jury trials or not.

First MC says that she had her underwear on. The prosecutor then asks did she have any shorts, a skirt or jeans on?

Then the answer becomes she had jean shorts on.

How did we go from having her underwear on, to she had jean shorts on?

 

[i.b.nora]

It was not a grand jury hearing, it was a probable cause hearing with a judge only. It is a hearing in a District Court with sworn testimony where the judge, the defendant's attorney, the prosecutor from the District Attorney's Office and any victim or witness subpoenaed are present. The purpose of the hearing is to establish a) that a crime has been committed and b) that the defendant/s committed it. It is an intermediate step and is not a finding of guilt or innocence.

According to the timeline from the Herald Star Online :

"Oct. 12, (2012) probable cause hearing — Lipps rules there is probable cause for rape charges to continue against the suspects, along with a charge of illegal use of a minor in nudity-oriented material against Mays. He dismisses a kidnapping charge against both defendants. Lipps said there was eyewitness testimony that sexual conduct occurred Aug. 11-12 between the suspects and the alleged victim. The judge said there was probable cause the victim was drunk and impaired and the juveniles charged knew it.
Also during the hearing:..."

The Timeline continues with more detail about what each witness said.

The Timeline is located at:
http://www.heraldstaronline.com/pdf/news/582064_1.pdf

 

[hollyjokers]

I just feel that there is a need to absolve the victim of any wrongdoing whatsoever, when common sense says she was just drinking along with the rest of them. To keep repeating the drugged theory, when there is no evidence to support it, is a waste of time, IMO. Trying to make more boys guilty of a crime they didn't do is not fighting for the victim. If the boys had access to roofies, why didn't MR pick a girl for himself? The party in the video looked like a far cry from Project X, why didn't all those boys have comatose girls of their own to use as toys? I thought the transcripts would have opened some people's eyes that they have been mightily misled by the narrative that's been put out, but I guess not. It may interest you to know the "busted b-tches & internet stalkers" blogger has removed all backlinks to Locallinks because she no longer trusts the information. An Anon issued a letter of apology to Steubenville residents yesterday for the innocent people who've been dox'ed & says he's moving on to other op projects. Most of them are just disappearing as suddenly as they came.

Where is the evidence THESE boys called themselves 'The Rape Crew'? The real Big Red Rape Crew graduated '10, '09, '08. The nickname had nothing to do with assaulting women. More of a "we are totally going to rape those Tigers." It's a somewhat common phrase among the younger crowd.

 

[LinTX]

From Rachel Dissell, who did interview some of the locals - she mentioned talking to McCafferty, for one:

http://dartcenter.org/content/steubenville-rape-case-conversation-with-rachel-dissell#.UPwudyc0WSo

And this young lady had no recollection of most of the night. From the way she tells the story, investigators are pretty sure she was drugged: she passed out so quickly. These guys tweeted about it, distributed videos, took pictures. Somebody even sent one of the pictures to her father. And pretty much most of the town knew about what had happened before it was ever reported to the police. That was what immediately grabbed my attention.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/09/rape_charges_divide_football_t.html

Officials continue to investigate details of the reports — that the girl was drugged into unconsciousness, ferried from party to party, raped and urinated on before ending up at home where her parents, discovering she was disoriented, took her to a local hospital.

and

Police said they were still awaiting results on other physical and biological evidence collected at a crime scene and a local hospital. Lab tests should also reveal whether the victim was drugged.

AFAIK we don't have access to the complete transcripts of the probable cause hearing, but haven't seen anything from the victim. Snippets are quoted from 3 of the boys regarding when they first became aware of her at the first party they attended themselves. I have read that she was first approached about going with these guys at a soccer party in her town, so it's possible that the 3 witnesses that testified have no first hand knowledge of that. More could come out in trial, or maybe what is said in these transcripts is true - I don't know. None of us do...

 

[Steely Dan]

I just feel that there is a need to absolve the victim of any wrongdoing whatsoever, when common sense says she was just drinking along with the rest of them. To keep repeating the drugged theory, when there is no evidence to support it, is a waste of time, IMO. Trying to make more boys guilty of a crime they didn't do is not fighting for the victim. If the boys had access to roofies, why didn't MR pick a girl for himself? The party in the video looked like a far cry from Project X, why didn't all those boys have comatose girls of their own to use as toys? I thought the transcripts would have opened some people's eyes that they have been mightily misled by the narrative that's been put out, but I guess not. It may interest you to know the "busted b-tches & internet stalkers" blogger has removed all backlinks to Locallinks because she no longer trusts the information. An Anon issued a letter of apology to Steubenville residents yesterday for the innocent people who've been dox'ed & says he's moving on to other op projects. Most of them are just disappearing as suddenly as they came.

Where is the evidence THESE boys called themselves 'The Rape Crew'? The real Big Red Rape Crew graduated '10, '09, '08. The nickname had nothing to do with assaulting women. More of a "we are totally going to rape those Tigers." It's a somewhat common phrase among the younger crowd.

There is a tweet from MR saying he's going to get into trouble for doing a friend a favor. (Not exactly worded that way)

 

[Foxfire]

I just feel that there is a need to absolve the victim of any wrongdoing whatsoever, when common sense says she was just drinking along with the rest of them. To keep repeating the drugged theory, when there is no evidence to support it, is a waste of time, IMO. Trying to make more boys guilty of a crime they didn't do is not fighting for the victim. If the boys had access to roofies, why didn't MR pick a girl for himself? The party in the video looked like a far cry from Project X, why didn't all those boys have comatose girls of their own to use as toys? I thought the transcripts would have opened some people's eyes that they have been mightily misled by the narrative that's been put out, but I guess not. It may interest you to know the "busted b-tches & internet stalkers" blogger has removed all backlinks to Locallinks because she no longer trusts the information. An Anon issued a letter of apology to Steubenville residents yesterday for the innocent people who've been dox'ed & says he's moving on to other op projects. Most of them are just disappearing as suddenly as they came.

Where is the evidence THESE boys called themselves 'The Rape Crew'? The real Big Red Rape Crew graduated '10, '09, '08. The nickname had nothing to do with assaulting women. More of a "we are totally going to rape those Tigers." It's a somewhat common phrase among the younger crowd.

hollyjokers, ever heard of the "Tiger Force"?
http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html

On October 19, 2003, the Ohio-based newspaper the Toledo Blade launched a four-day series...

 

[Steely Dan]

It was not a grand jury hearing, it was a probable cause hearing with a judge only. It is a hearing in a District Court with sworn testimony where the judge, the defendant's attorney, the prosecutor from the District Attorney's Office and any victim or witness subpoenaed are present. The purpose of the hearing is to establish a) that a crime has been committed and b) that the defendant/s committed it. It is an intermediate step and is not a finding of guilt or innocence.

According to the timeline from the Herald Star Online :

"Oct. 12, (2012) probable cause hearing — Lipps rules there is probable cause for rape charges to continue against the suspects, along with a charge of illegal use of a minor in nudity-oriented material against Mays. He dismisses a kidnapping charge against both defendants. Lipps said there was eyewitness testimony that sexual conduct occurred Aug. 11-12 between the suspects and the alleged victim. The judge said there was probable cause the victim was drunk and impaired and the juveniles charged knew it.
Also during the hearing:..."

The Timeline continues with more detail about what each witness said.

The Timeline is located at:
http://www.heraldstaronline.com/pdf/news/582064_1.pdf

According to this article; http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/content.detail/id/542055.html

The three students testified on Oct. 12th. It was published Oct. 16th and the preceding Friday would have been the 12th.

In the question and answer period they refer to the questioner as ma'am. So it isn't Tom Lipps who replaced Jane Hanlin they are talking to. So who is it?

I'm going to deconstruct each part of the testimony from this site that hollyjokers posted; http://leestranahan.com/category/steubenville/page/3/