GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #1

[Steely Dan]

I'm certainly not a lawyer, don't claim to understand most of it and realize I may be reading this wrong, but how differently can one read this?



Judicial notice, as I understand it, is kind of a short cut around rules of evidence & how it is normally entered into a trial. If the judge takes notice, that means whatever the evidence is is taken as undisputed fact. From the following quote, I'm wondering if what Madison was trying to do was avoid witnesses from that video being questioned under oath.

(http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_201)

You're right, I missed the part about it not being entered into evidence. That's a mistake by the prosecution, IMO. They should introduce the video and call MCN as a witness too. JMO

 

[LinTX]

I'm sure the prosecution would like to use it, but we'll just have to wait to see if they can get it in once the trial gets underway. I suspect it will be challenged as hearsay, but they might have an argument against that. MN says he didn't witness an assault, but he did see the victim, IIRC. That might be enough to get him on the stand because if he wasn't an eye witness, I have a feeling he saw the now missing rape video and that could come out under questioning.

 

[Steely Dan]

I'm sure the prosecution would like to use it, but we'll just have to wait to see if they can get it in once the trial gets underway. I suspect it will be challenged as hearsay, but they might have an argument against that. MN says he didn't witness an assault, but he did see the victim, IIRC. That might be enough to get him on the stand because if he wasn't an eye witness, I have a feeling he saw the now missing rape video and that could come out under questioning.

I don't want to listen to the video again because it nauseates me, but I believe he makes some incriminating remarks against himself as having witnessed or possibly participated.

I believe that he names MR and TM as doing it, so he should be a witness for that reason alone. He also talks about how dry her :censored: was, IIRC, and that nobody sleeps through a :censored: in their :censored:

He also laughs about how she is so raped and makes more comments (supposed to be jokes) about how raped she is. This makes me believe that more than MR and TM were involved in this. He knows A LOT more about this than that video shows.

All of the above is JMO

 

[hollyjokers]

And again, he was interviewed at least twice, his phone seized and analyzed, the video analyzed; he is not considered a witness by either pros or defense.

It's been awhile since I watched it, but I don't believe he refers to MR & TM; the boys on the couch do.

 

[LinTX]

Unless they can put MN in the room at the time of the assault - or possibly admit to watching the video of it - anything he says is hearsay and would not be allowed in court. I agree that he knows a lot more than he's saying...most of those kids do, IMO, but for the purposes of this trial they can only testify to what they saw or heard themselves - and he claims he was not in the room. If the prosecution can prove otherwise, he'll be on the stand and will be facing some obstruction charges as well but I'm not counting on that happening.

 

[Tugela]

The blogger McCain is one of Stranahan's buddies. As for that supposed quote by the prosecutor, that is Stranahan's version - I've searched through quite a few MSM articles that covered that hearing in detail, and none of them support Stranahan's interpretation of the request, this supposed statement by the prosecutor or the decision on the video.

Madison asked for judicial review of the video and the court's opinion on both it's criminality and whether or not it could be constitutionally offered as evidence. He wanted to know before the trial if statements that were made in the video would be heard - he was also wanting a ruling or interpretation of the "immunity letters". Guessing he's planning his defense strategy depending on what witnesses would be permitted to say in trial.

The judge did not rule the video would not be used as evidence, despite what Stranahan wants people to believe. He actually said he had not seen the video, did not plan of viewing it (which he would have to do for judicial review) and would only do so if it was admitted into evidence.

This is on page 7 of the decision, which can be read here:
http://www.heraldstaronline.com/pdf/news/582695_1.pdf

I doubt the prosecutor would want the video entered into evidence. I don't know if many of you have ever been teenaged boys (I suspect not). I have, and I know for a fact at that age exaggeration and bravado is rife. Anything even remotely sexually related is going to greatly overstated with a whole lot added on. So, what this kid claimed in that video is probably 95% not true, and most of it can probably be proven not true, which means that it could be used to attack the credibility of the other 5% which might be true. The defence team will probably be able to rip this kid's credibility to shreds if the prosecutor were to offer the video as evidence of what happened, and I doubt they are stupid enough to do that.

What they will do is put him on the stand, and question about the 5% only. As soon as they try to corroborate with the video, the defence will destroy their witness. So they won't do that.

 

[Steely Dan]

I doubt the prosecutor would want the video entered into evidence. I don't know if many of you have ever been teenaged boys (I suspect not). I have, and I know for a fact at that age exaggeration and bravado is rife. Anything even remotely sexually related is going to greatly overstated with a whole lot added on. So, what this kid claimed in that video is probably 95% not true, and most of it can probably be proven not true, which means that it could be used to attack the credibility of the other 5% which might be true. The defence team will probably be able to rip this kid's credibility to shreds if the prosecutor were to offer the video as evidence of what happened, and I doubt they are stupid enough to do that.

What they will do is put him on the stand, and question about the 5% only. As soon as they try to corroborate with the video, the defence will destroy their witness. So they won't do that.

I was a teenage boy for 6 years. None and I repeat none, of my friends made rape jokes or :censored: a dead girl jokes. If anyone in our group had they would have been ostracized immediately. My friends and I, and even the kids I knew a little bit would have never made a video like that.

I also have friends with teenage boys. None of them would behave that way either. Teenage boys drive cars over the speed limit, attempt stupid stunts like the ones all over Youtube, pull stupid practical jokes, drink under the legal age, smoke pot, and other things that I'm amazed hadn't killed me or one of my friends when we were younger. If one of us had seen a girl being raped we would have stepped in and called the police. Rape "humor" is not normal for a teenage boy.

MCN is not being a teenager, that's being a psychopath. JMO

BTW, I'm a little offended that you think that's a normal reaction from a teenage boy.

 

[hollyjokers]

The boys I went to school with were easily that crude in talking about girls, and that was over twenty years ago. Perhaps it's the rust belt mentality.

 

[LinTX]

I doubt the prosecutor would want the video entered into evidence. I don't know if many of you have ever been teenaged boys (I suspect not). I have, and I know for a fact at that age exaggeration and bravado is rife. Anything even remotely sexually related is going to greatly overstated with a whole lot added on. So, what this kid claimed in that video is probably 95% not true, and most of it can probably be proven not true, which means that it could be used to attack the credibility of the other 5% which might be true. The defence team will probably be able to rip this kid's credibility to shreds if the prosecutor were to offer the video as evidence of what happened, and I doubt they are stupid enough to do that.

What they will do is put him on the stand, and question about the 5% only. As soon as they try to corroborate with the video, the defence will destroy their witness. So they won't do that.

First, this "boys will be boys" attitude you describe is thankfully not shared by the majority of men who have reacted to that video online, in print, or who show up at the demonstrations to support JD. I may not have ever been a boy, but I've raised one, and I can guarantee he would be as disgusted as most are about that video.

Second, I'm not so sure that it's as inaccurate as you seem to think. The testimony of witnesses goes along with a lot of what he describes, and while I do think in part he's parroting what he was told or saw in video or pictures about the rape itself, he still has information about that night regarding the attitude and related behaviors of the two accused. And as a reminder, it wasn't the prosecution that was trying to avoid it being seen, it was the defense.

 

[LinTX]

The boys I went to school with were easily that crude in talking about girls, and that was over twenty years ago. Perhaps it's the rust belt mentality.

This wasn't locker room talk about girls. This was a very real night of rape and humiliation for this girl, and MN showed in real time video what kind of attitude existed in this group of boys that resulted in her treatment that night. That should concern anyone within driving distance of that town who has a daughter, niece or just simply cares about any girl who may come in contact with them. IMO.

 

[hollyjokers]

Well, all the would-be sleuthers can continue to speculate and draw inferences that aren't there, but the fact remains that the real investigation moved past this video six months ago.

I find MC's testimony a little more intriguing. He seemed to say he returned to JH's party after AC & EM left his house. If he only wanted to give his friends privacy, he could have gone in his bedroom & closed the door, or retreated upstairs. But he says he came back from JH's again with FM. I wonder if he went to get a girl to help get the victim dressed & get her out of there, but the three were asleep by the time he got back. Just a theory. I hope we hear more details about this at the trial.

 

[Steely Dan]

The boys I went to school with were easily that crude in talking about girls, and that was over twenty years ago. Perhaps it's the rust belt mentality.

I'm sorry you went to a school like that. My experiences were 26-30 years ago.

This wasn't locker room talk about girls. This was a very real night of rape and humiliation for this girl, and MN showed in real time video what kind of attitude existed in this group of boys that resulted in her treatment that night. That should concern anyone within driving distance of that town who has a daughter, niece or just simply cares about any girl who may come in contact with them. IMO.

BBM

I never played organized sports, bit I took a lot of gym classes and never heard anyone talk like that.

Well, all the would-be sleuthers can continue to speculate and draw inferences that aren't there, but the fact remains that the real investigation moved past this video six months ago.

I find MC's testimony a little more intriguing. He seemed to say he returned to JH's party after AC & EM left his house. If he only wanted to give his friends privacy, he could have gone in his bedroom & closed the door, or retreated upstairs. But he says he came back from JH's again with FM. I wonder if he went to get a girl to help get the victim dressed & get her out of there, but the three were asleep by the time he got back. Just a theory. I hope we hear more details about this at the trial.

JMO, but I doubt we'll learn much at the trial. I think it will be quick and the punishments light. There will be more outrage, but the town knows it will peter out eventually and just go away. Knightsec's site has been taken down by the board owner and I haven't seen a new one.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I was a teenage boy for 6 years. None and I repeat none, of my friends made rape jokes or :censored: a dead girl jokes. If anyone in our group had they would have been ostracized immediately. My friends and I, and even the kids I knew a little bit would have never made a video like that.

I also have friends with teenage boys. None of them would behave that way either. Teenage boys drive cars over the speed limit, attempt stupid stunts like the ones all over Youtube, pull stupid practical jokes, drink under the legal age, smoke pot, and other things that I'm amazed hadn't killed me or one of my friends when we were younger. If one of us had seen a girl being raped we would have stepped in and called the police. Rape "humor" is not normal for a teenage boy.

MCN is not being a teenager, that's being a psychopath. JMO

BTW, I'm a little offended that you think that's a normal reaction from a teenage boy.

Thank you for your response regarding "regular boy talk"...

I thought I had misinterpreted the original post..

Isn't the justification of such talk a step towards normalizing such behaviors?

Isn't that what we wish to eliminate?

JMO

 

[erik28]

Anyone hear any news on this?

From Twitter (posted about 2:30pm PST 4/5/13)
Eric Minor ‏@EricWTOV9
USAG Holder speaks on Steubenville teen rape case, Live at Five. @WTOV91

I've searched through Google News & asked directly via Twitter for an update and/or link to the coverage but have received no reply.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Anyone hear any news on this?

From Twitter (posted about 2:30pm PST 4/5/13)
Eric Minor ‏@EricWTOV9
USAG Holder speaks on Steubenville teen rape case, Live at Five. @WTOV91

I've searched through Google News & asked directly via Twitter for an update and/or link to the coverage but have received no reply.

Whooaahhh... As in US Attorney General Eric Holder?

I am very curious what he has to say regarding the Steubenville Case!

:waitasec:

 

[Steely Dan]

Whooaahhh... As in US Attorney General Eric Holder?

I am very curious what he has to say regarding the Steubenville Case!

:waitasec:

IIRC, one of the kids father's is high up on the WTOV9's hierarchy.

 

[human]

I was a teenage boy for 6 years. None and I repeat none, of my friends made rape jokes or :censored: a dead girl jokes. If anyone in our group had they would have been ostracized immediately. My friends and I, and even the kids I knew a little bit would have never made a video like that.

I also have friends with teenage boys. None of them would behave that way either. Teenage boys drive cars over the speed limit, attempt stupid stunts like the ones all over Youtube, pull stupid practical jokes, drink under the legal age, smoke pot, and other things that I'm amazed hadn't killed me or one of my friends when we were younger. If one of us had seen a girl being raped we would have stepped in and called the police. Rape "humor" is not normal for a teenage boy.

MCN is not being a teenager, that's being a psychopath. JMO

BTW, I'm a little offended that you think that's a normal reaction from a teenage boy.

Thank you for that. As the mother of an adult son, I could smile now at the tricks and fast driving. Yes. I could sit on my deck and listen to them talking. They did not know I could hear them talking in the garage.

Exploits of speeding. Used to scare me so much.

My son was the captain of his football team. Football is no big deal where I live. He did not tolerate any bullies for any reason

 

[LisaB]

I've never heard anyone use the term 'rape' in a way that had nothing to do with assaulting women. If this is a common term in football culture or something, I hope that this case will bring light to the fact that this is completely gross and inappropriate.

I came across this video a while ago, and think it brings up some really good points about how ideas about rape are perpetuated (this random guy was a lot better than Dr. Phil, at least!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TQHsjYpYGwc

It isn't just football players. My daughter (21) has been using the term for years. I suppose it may have been what they were allowed to say in school, which the "F-word" and even "screwed" were frowned upon? I personally hate it, but she says worse now...

 

[LisaB]

Presumption of innocence is for the jury and only the jury. It doesn't apply here.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Since when does this not apply to judges?

"...the presumption of innocence is essential to the criminal process. The mere mention of the phrase presumed innocent keeps judges and juries focused on the ultimate issue at hand in a criminal case: whether the prosecution has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the alleged acts..."
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/presumption+of+innocence

 

[LisaB]

http://www.channels.com/episodes/sh...ubenville-Rape-Crew-s-Disgusting-Brags-VIDEO-

I never noticed how he names MR and TM in the MCN video. Still it's hearsay, but he should be called as a witness. JMO

It may not specifically name either defendant, however it DOES substantiate claims that the girl was raped and sodomized, and was unconscious at the time.