OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

[kimlynn]

I watched it too and disagree. People keep talking about 2-3 seconds. 2-3 seconds is plenty of time to yell commands and see a gun.
If he pulled the gun out as soon as the officer opened the door to get out, they saw it immediately.

That would also explain why he shot so quickly. He thought Tamir was about to shoot.

JMO

We all have our opinions and that is fine. I'm really not interested in a huge debate on the subject. I basically came in to respond to one post which has since went poof and kind of got sucked in.
I never posted much if at all on this thread but did follow along via media and a few reads here and there on this thread.

 

[kimlynn]

I find it ridiculous too. But they had no training. I am trained in CPR as well but would not feel comfortable at all treating a gunshot wound to the abdomen.

Now the officers in Cleveland are being trained and carry basic supplies.

Improvement.

I'm very happy to hear that. Not to brag (lol) but I came in second in my large class as far as scoring and it isn't that difficult to learn how to render aid if need be.

 

[bluesneakers]

I agree. I just can't believe that they had no training. I took a class on CPR and first aid and I worked with youths at the time. It was required.

It was a requirement when I was in the Army and we had to be certified every year. Basic CPR isn't that difficult. I mean, we learned it in First Aid in High School. I can't imagine professional law enforcement officers wouldn't know the basics. They could have tried.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

We all have our opinions and that is fine. I'm really not interested in a huge debate on the subject. I basically came in to respond to one post which has sent went poof and kind of got sucked in.
I never posted much if at all on this thread but did follow along via media and a few reads here and there on this thread.

Sorry you feel you were sucked into a huge debate.
I'm just discussing the case.

 

[kimlynn]

Sorry you feel you were sucked into a huge debate.
I'm just discussing the case.

Oh no. You're fine. I enjoyed the discussion. Just didn't want to seem rude if I don't respond in the future. I'll probably keep my eyes on this one here and there.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It was a requirement when I was in the Army and we had to be certified every year. Basic CPR isn't that difficult. I mean, we learned it in First Aid in High School. I can't imagine professional law enforcement officers wouldn't know the basics. They could have tried.

Even if it meant that their lack of training could've done more harm than good?
What if, in their first aid ignorance, they would have applied too much pressure and damaged an artery or organ more severely? Causing more trauma or more excessive bleeding?

That's my point.

He was shot in the abdomen. There's a lot of "parts" in that area. Important organs.

It's not like he was shot in the foot or arm.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

To render first aid or not to has been a complicated legal issue for many departments. There have been some lawsuits brought against cops for rendering aid at accidents/crime scenes, and some victims have thought they made things worse in a few cases. So some departments have said NO AID just call the EMTS. If they find someone in a swimming g pool they are going to do CPR, obviously. But with gunshot wounds and traffic accidents it can get complicated.

 

[K_Z]

Witness #1 stated that the male then started to act “gangster” by pulling a gun in and out of his waistband and observed that specific motion at least 6 or 7 times. Witness #1 further stated that in 2012 he
had been a victim of a previous assault and because of the actions by the male (Tamir) he became frightened and he refused to make eye contact with him.
Witness #1 recalled that at one point the male pulled the gun out in front of a passerby and pointed the gun directly at the person’s face as she walked by him on the sidewalk. (Surveillance video captures this interaction between Tamir and Witness #6).


Witness #4 stated that before Tamir got shot he would pull the gun in and out of his pants “like robbers do” and he was in front of the Cudell Recreation Center with Witness #3 when they heard the shots. They ran towards the gazebo and witnessed the plain clothes officer (FBI) attend to Tamir. They stayed until Tamir was taken to the hospital.

However, the video surveillance from Camera 1 demonstrates that Tamir and Witness #6 actually met on the sidewalk in front of the gazebo. (Witness #1 was sitting inside the gazebo at that time during the interaction). The video shows Tamir openly carrying the replica firearm then pointing it at Witness #6 as she walked away.

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

Thank you for posting the full 75 page report. With all the multiple camera views, as well as the in depth investigation, and witness reports, and the side by side photos of the Airsoft gun with the real 1911, it's even more obvious to me that the right decision was not to charge the officers.

Sadly, this kid's "gangster practice" actions with that replica gun, over weeks/ months, as well as for hours on the day of his death, were only going to have 2 certain outcomes-- prison, or death. Incredibly dangerous, risky behavior. The outcome was entirely predictable. Sad. But this scenario is played out thousands, if not millions of times, in every major urban area, every day.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but this youth caused his own death, IMO. I blame his parents for their failure at teaching him a lot of things that would have kept him alive. I don't blame the officers at all, for anything they did.

On another note, I wish we could legislate that no real guns could be sold or manufactured in "toy" colors, and that ALL replica and look alike "toy" guns be manufactured in bright candy cane stripe colors that could not be altered or painted. Then it would be obvious from a great distance which are real, and which are replica "toys". It drives me crazy to see Hello Kitty pink and purple "women's" handguns. They look like toys, and will entice toddlers and small kids. The opposite is true for replica guns like "air soft"-- they are specifically chosen BECAUSE they look so real. Tamir's had BOTH the laser sight removed, as well as the orange tip. And really, no one is playing legitimate Airsoft games in the inner city. There is only one reason a 12 yer old and his pals have that exact brand and model of gun, IMO. They are rehearsing, modeling, and posturing to be like the gangsters and criminals they admire, IMO.

 

[EllieBee]

To be clear, no amount of first aid or direct pressure would have made a bit of difference in whether or not TR survived after being shot at very close range. The only thing that gave him a slight chance was rapid transport to a level one trauma center, with advanced life support measures in progress.

His IVC (inferior vena cava) was shredded, the bullet bounced around, and lodged in his lower abdomen near his pelvis, according to the ME's report. No amount of first aid or "direct pressure" will make a difference in that situation.

I'm not debating whether or not the officers were bound by law or statute to try and render first aid. Only pointing out the facts of the ballistic injury.

Yep. When you blow away a 12 year old the very nanosecond you roll up, administering first aid is prolly way down on your priority list.

Nevermind that I was REQUIRED to be certified in first aid and as such, legally required to administer said aid, in a job much less crucial than that of a first responder. But if course, poor LE, how can we expect THEM to be law abiding citizens?

So sick of the bs crap excusing LE for EVERYTHING! Geez, where does it END?

 

[drjones]

On a lot of websites I read I see people that proclaim to care so much about this case yet they dont even know the basic facts of the case. So many times on other websites I wonder if the people made even the most basic attempts to research the issues they comment on.

I wonder if it might be public knowledge whether or not Cleveland police were trained, equipped, or required to provide first aid? How could anyone possibly know that?

I wonder if because of this exact case there was a policy change? How could we possibly know that? If only there was some way...

 

[K_Z]

To be factual, Tamir was not a bystander or victim. He was a criminal suspect brandishing a gun and threatening and intimidating members of the public. The 75 page report makes that abundantly clear. It was the highest priority call that the officers were responding to. And correctly so, IMO.

It's too bad Tamir died. But entirely predictable and understandable, IMO. The officers responded appropriately, IMO.

And I personally don't think the relatives should receive any kind of payout from the civil suit. I don't think they have any valid damages under the law. I understand they have emotional distress, yes, but not actionable damages. JMO.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

On a lot of websites I read I see people that proclaim to care so much about this case yet they dont even know the basic facts of the case. So many times on other websites I wonder if the people made even the most basic attempts to research the issues they comment on.

I wonder if it might be public knowledge whether or not Cleveland police were trained, equipped, or required to provide first aid? How could anyone possibly know that?

I wonder if because of this exact case there was a policy change? How could we possibly know that? If only there was some way...

I've read they were not trained, equipped, or required to provide first aid.
I posted the link a page or so ago.

And IMO I do believe this case brought on the policy change. Now officers in the area are being trained and every patrol car is equipped with at least basic supplies. They've already made a difference and have germ used.

So yeah, improvement.

 

[K_Z]

On a lot of websites I read I see people that proclaim to care so much about this case yet they dont even know the basic facts of the case. So many times on other websites I wonder if the people made even the most basic attempts to research the issues they comment on.

I wonder if it might be public knowledge whether or not Cleveland police were trained, equipped, or required to provide first aid? How could anyone possibly know that?

I wonder if because of this exact case there was a policy change? How could we possibly know that? If only there was some way...

Im kind of confused about the first aid comments myself. There is really no question that lack of first aid contributed to his death. He died from a close range GSW that shredded the IVC. First aid is a deflection/ distraction. Lack of first aid didn't kill Tamir. No authorities have even floated that idea. Only those that want to pin more misplaced blame on the officers focus on the first aid thing, IMO.

 

[K_Z]

<modsnip>

Tamir was a criminal suspect at the time of his shooting. That is not in dispute by any authorities.

 

[EllieBee]

To be factual, Tamir was not a bystander or victim. He was a criminal suspect brandishing a gun and threatening and intimidating members of the public. The 75 page report makes that abundantly clear. It was the highest priority call that the officers were responding to. And correctly so, IMO.

It's too bad Tamir died. But entirely predictable and understandable, IMO. The officers responded appropriately, IMO.

And I personally don't think the relatives should receive any kind of payout from the civil suit. I don't think they have any valid damages under the law. I understand they have emotional distress, yes, but not actionable damages. JMO.

He was a TWELVE YEAR OLD CHILD.

Ethan Couch killed four people. Probation.

Tamir commited NO CRIME AT ALL. Death by cop.

Yeah. Equality.

 

[drjones]

Right? A 12-year-old kid playing in a park is shot and killed but is not a victim. I don't get it.

JMO

I know right? This was just a little kid playing in the park and the police drove up and executed him. Is this America??

 

[bluesneakers]

He was black, see.

If he were white, he would be Ethan Effing Couch.

And yet, no one is mad about some little white murderer who mowed down 4 innocent people.

But a black 12 year old who KILLED NO ONE..... Hell, yeah! Shoot his criminal CHILD azz.

Really?????

Did you see the link I posted about the woman pointing a weapon at police officers? Because yeah, it's getting harder and harder to pretend it's not what it so obviously is.

 

[ArianeEmory]

He was black, see.

If he were white, he would be Ethan Effing Couch.

And yet, no one is mad about some little white murderer who mowed down 4 innocent people.

But a black 12 year old who KILLED NO ONE..... Hell, yeah! Shoot his criminal CHILD azz.

Really?????

Respectfully, lots of people were ENRAGED about Affluenza Boy, and he was just arrested in Mexico. People, including LE, do care about that situation.

 

[EllieBee]

Tamir was a criminal suspect at the time of his shooting. That is not in dispute by any authorities.

Well, let's just say that in this case, the "authorities" leave a lot to be desired.

 

[EllieBee]

Respectfully, lots of people were ENRAGED about Affluenza Boy, and he was just arrested in Mexico. People, including LE, do care about that situation.

And yet, he was allowed his day in court. And will be again.

He is alive. Not shot dead. And he actually MURDERED 4 people.

Who did Tamir hurt? NO ONE!!!!!!!