OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

[Tawny]

It was in his waistband, they didn't have time to SEE the "weapon" before firing. Has anyone here watched the video? Tell me when that officer had time to see anything at all before opening fire. It was LITERALLY under 3 seconds from the time he opened his car door to the time he fired the first shot. All he had time to do was get out, run around the hood, and open fire.

They were told someone was pointing a gun at people. They pull up and see a 12 year old boy (look at the pics of Tamir and tell me he looks like a grown man to you), and they open fire.

Why not park farther back? Why not approach with caution? Why not try literally anything else than what they did? A woman was literally just reported to be pointing a gun at police and taunting them to shoot and she's alive. Tell me why this is different?

 

[al66pine]

.... it was a toy being used as a weapon. The orange tip was removed and he was brandishing it in a threatening matter to passersby....This boy was obviously trying to freak people out by using what looked like a real gun, probably trying to look like some of the older kids in the neighborhood.

....cases of these guns getting kids shot by police because of the confusion - hence the placement of the orange tips....the importance of the orange tips.

My kids have these guns and the first thing I told them was if the tips were gone, the guns were gone. And explained to them that they were to only be used in their own yards and never pointed at people. I also explained to them about the dangers of officers confusing the guns with real ones and to immediately drop the weapon and put their hands up if ever confronted. And if they got shot because of their own stupidity, there was unfortunately, nothing I could do for them....This kid knew exactly what he was doing waving that gun around scaring people and his actions caused himself to get killed.

^sbm bbm
Wish more parents gave this kind of ^guidance to their children & wish kids would pay attention. I'm glad your kids followed your guidance.

The 1992 fed 'orange tip' statute* was intended, in part, to allow ppl to distinguish toy guns from real guns. The law sounds warm & fuzzy, as if LEOs and the gen public can depend on orange tipped guns as 'no threat' to them. But IDK how they could, as anyone can wrap orange tape around a gun tip to make it resemble a 'toy' or airsoft or other replica gun.

Conversely anyone can remove, strip, or tape over the orange tip to make it resemble a real gun, the way Tamir's borrowed gun did, tho presumably it had originally been orange-tipped.
JM2cts.

_________________________________________________________________
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_weapon
"Problems with toy weapons that look similar to real firearms can include:

• a robber or other criminal might threaten people with a toy weapon.
• people might flee and panic, or overpower the carrier of a toy weapon.
• police officers or other authorities treating the carrier of a toy weapon as armed may harm him or her, and take measures such as closing an area, causing disruption to the public and needless work for the authorities.
• a child might handle a real weapon confusing it with a toy.

* "In the United States, in 1992 the Department of Commerce prohibited the manufacture, sale, or shipping of toy firearms unless they have an orange tip or are entirely brightly colored. The regulation does not prohibit end-users from modifying the toys.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft
".... the similarity between genuine firearms and airsoft replicas is close enough to provoke interaction with local law enforcement personnel if an airsoft gun is carried openly in public."

 

[seattlechiquita]

Do you have a link that discussed not rendering medical attention or that that is even the officers responsibility. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just hadn't read that and not sure if it is even proper protocol for the shooting officer to render the first aid when I am certain they immediately put the call out.

Yup. Here it is:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...ations-cleveland-police-shooting-6-takeaways

From link: "The reports do not discuss the fact that Loehmann and Garmback did not administer first aid while Rice lay bleeding. Surveillance footage of the incident showed Loehmann and Garmback stood around for about four minutes without attempting to give any medical attention to Rice. When Rice's sister approached, Garmback tackled her to the ground. Later, an FBI agent arrived and began to tend to Rice's wound before an ambulance took him to a hospital. Rice died the next day."

 

[bluesneakers]

Yup. Here it is:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...ations-cleveland-police-shooting-6-takeaways

From link: "The reports do not discuss the fact that Loehmann and Garmback did not administer first aid while Rice lay bleeding. Surveillance footage of the incident showed Loehmann and Garmback stood around for about four minutes without attempting to give any medical attention to Rice. When Rice's sister approached, Garmback tackled her to the ground. Later, an FBI agent arrived and began to tend to Rice's wound before an ambulance took him to a hospital. Rice died the next day."

Sounds familiar.

 

[KaaBoom]

It was in his waistband, they didn't have time to SEE the "weapon" before firing. Has anyone here watched the video? Tell me when that officer had time to see anything at all before opening fire. It was LITERALLY under 3 seconds from the time he opened his car door to the time he fired the first shot. All he had time to do was get out, run around the hood, and open fire.

Sorry to nitpick but it was 3 seconds only if you count the time he was driving up. Not from the time the door opened. The police car came into the frame at 3:30:19. The door opened at 3:30:23. At the same moment the door was opening the kid went down. (that was from the prosecutors own report). Zero warning. It was a cold blooded execution.

Of course everybody saw the video. Most people in the country don’t care what is on the video. The prosecutor didn’t care, the grand jury members didn’t care. Most people in this forum don’t care. Black kid’s lives are expendable in this country. It’s sad, but thats the type of society we are living in.

 

[katydid23]

Sorry to nitpick but it was 3 seconds only if you count the time he was driving up. Not from the time the door opened. The police car came into the frame at 3:30:19. The door opened at 3:30:23. At the same moment the door was opening the kid went down. (that was from the prosecutors own report). Zero warning. It was a cold blooded execution.

Of course everybody saw the video. Most people in the country don’t care what is on the video. The prosecutor didn’t care, the grand jury members didn’t care. Most people in this forum don’t care. Black kid’s lives are expendable in this country. It’s sad, but thats the type of society we are living in.

Blck kids lives do seem to be expendable. Who is killing 98% of them? Is it the cops?

 

[Tawny]

Sorry to nitpick but it was 3 seconds only if you count the time he was driving up. Not from the time the door opened. The police car came into the frame at 3:30:19. The door opened at 3:30:23. At the same moment the door was opening the kid went down. (that was from the prosecutors own report). Zero warning. It was a cold blooded execution.

Of course everybody saw the video. Most people in the country don’t care what is on the video. The prosecutor didn’t care, the grand jury members didn’t care. Most people in this forum don’t care. Black kid’s lives are expendable in this country. It’s sad, but thats the type of society we are living in.

No need to be sorry, thanks for the clarification.

Blck kids lives do seem to be expendable. Who is killing 98% of them? Is it the cops?

This always goes directly to this argument. That black people kill more black people than cops kill black people. It's misdirection, so that we'll be forced to debate THAT instead of the very real problem of persons in authority killing unarmed black men and women, which needs to be addressed and fast if LEO wants to maintain the trust of the general population. They're losing ground and it's because things like THIS keep on happening. More and more unarmed, innocent black people are added to the list of the dead daily. And we scramble to find "reasons" why they're dead.

How about we scramble to retrain officers so it doesn't happen? How about we prosecute the officers who screw up so badly that an innocent person dies? How about we scramble to make an example of not only the bad LEOs but the good? Why don't we focus on fixing THAT problem, so that the community can at least trust law enforcement again. JMO of course.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Sorry to nitpick but it was 3 seconds only if you count the time he was driving up. Not from the time the door opened. The police car came into the frame at 3:30:19. The door opened at 3:30:23. At the same moment the door was opening the kid went down. (that was from the prosecutors own report). Zero warning. It was a cold blooded execution.

Of course everybody saw the video. Most people in the country don’t care what is on the video. The prosecutor didn’t care, the grand jury members didn’t care. Most people in this forum don’t care. Black kid’s lives are expendable in this country. It’s sad, but thats the type of society we are living in.

Of course we care! To say otherwise is ridiculous.

However, some here see things different than others. That IN NO WAY
means people here don't care about a lost life.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I think you are correct.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/inde...olice_radio_workers.html#incart_story_package

Errors by police radio worker 'significant' factor in fatal shooting of Tamir Rice, prosecutor says

McGinty said Monday that the shooting might have been avoided if a police radio worker had relayed to the officers important information provided by a 911 caller. The caller reported that the person with the gun was "probably a juvenile" and that the gun might be fake.

But the officers were told to investigate a report of someone with a gun scaring people outside the center.

McGinty is wrong on this and he knows it. Ohio is an open carry state. There have been numerous instances when police have received calls complaining about men walking around with guns, yet none of them were shot at or even arrested.

Here's a recent example of a man in Akron (just south of Cleveland) walking around downtown businesses carrying an assault rifle and a handgun. No one shot or arrested him, even though local business owners complained.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/gun-carrying-man-scaring-many-in-akron-neighborhoods-says-weapons-are-for-self-protection-1.645252

Other than the fact that the man with the assault rifle was white, can someone explain why police responded differently to this situation?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

McGinty is wrong on this and he knows it. Ohio is an open carry state. There have been numerous instances when police have received calls complaining about men walking around with guns, yet none of them were shot at or even arrested.

Here's a recent example of a man in Akron (just south of Cleveland) walking around downtown businesses carrying an assault rifle and a handgun. No one shot or arrested him, even though local business owners complained.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/gun-carrying-man-scaring-many-in-akron-neighborhoods-says-weapons-are-for-self-protection-1.645252

Other than the fact that the man with the assault rifle was white, can someone explain why police responded differently to this situation?

Was he pointing it at people?

Because Tamir was. It's on video.

ETA:

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

911 Caller: I’m sitting here in the park by West Boulevard by the West Boulevard Rapid Transit Station. There’s a guy with a pistol. It’s probably fake, but he’s like pointing it at everybody.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

IMO the difference has nothing to do with race. It has to do with actions.

The man was walking around with the guns strapped to him. Not pointing them at people.

Tamir was pulling his out and pointing it at people. Witnesses said he was acting like he was robbing people. (IIRC)

Actions/not race

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

If you watch the video, the most clearly compelling case for exonerating the officer is the frame immediately following the first shot. Watch it...the officer clearly and immediately RETREATS toward the back of the vehicle. To me, this is all of the evidence that is required for his defense - proof positive that he was in fear for his life. View attachment 86250

No one has brought this up and I don't know if everyone missed the press conference I saw, but they showed an enhanced video frame-by-frame where you could see the right side of Tamir's jacket or vest rising up as he went to pull the gun out of the right side of his waistband just as the car stops. This was bolstered by the fact that the gun was not found on him but on the ground. It is entirely possible he was pulling the gun out to show it to the cops or throw it on the ground but it was perceived as threatening (reasonably so IMO) by the officers.

Additionally they explained at the press conference that the car was so close to him because it slid on the icy ground.

I was watching on CNN. I will see if I can find an article with these statements. If they are not in other articles I find it interesting as I feel they are crucial to understanding the sequence of events.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Witness #1 stated that the male then started to act “gangster” by pulling a gun in and out of his waistband and observed that specific motion at least 6 or 7 times. Witness #1 further stated that in 2012 he
had been a victim of a previous assault and because of the actions by the male (Tamir) he became frightened and he refused to make eye contact with him.
Witness #1 recalled that at one point the male pulled the gun out in front of a passerby and pointed the gun directly at the person’s face as she walked by him on the sidewalk. (Surveillance video captures this interaction between Tamir and Witness #6).


Witness #4 stated that before Tamir got shot he would pull the gun in and out of his pants “like robbers do” and he was in front of the Cudell Recreation Center with Witness #3 when they heard the shots. They ran towards the gazebo and witnessed the plain clothes officer (FBI) attend to Tamir. They stayed until Tamir was taken to the hospital.

However, the video surveillance from Camera 1 demonstrates that Tamir and Witness #6 actually met on the sidewalk in front of the gazebo. (Witness #1 was sitting inside the gazebo at that time during the interaction). The video shows Tamir openly carrying the replica firearm then pointing it at Witness #6 as she walked away.

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It's ok to carry. Not ok to point and threaten.

 

[kimlynn]

Was he pointing it at people?

Because Tamir was. It's on video.

ETA:

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

911 Caller: I’m sitting here in the park by West Boulevard by the West Boulevard Rapid Transit Station. There’s a guy with a pistol. It’s probably fake, but he’s like pointing it at everybody.

Kids mimic what they see and they see people pointing guns on T.V. and video games. He wasn't doing anything that any other child wouldn't be doing with a toy gun. IMO

 

[TheDuchess]

Kids mimic what they see and they see people pointing guns on T.V. and video games. He wasn't doing anything that any other child wouldn't be doing with a toy gun. IMO

He wasn't 5. He was 12. Old enough to know you don't run around pointing a real looking gun at strangers. Well...I think even a 5 year old knows that. I am really tired of people treating this boy like he was some little kid playing cops and robbers. What he was doing is actually a felony. Pointing what looks like a real gun at people is assault. If he hadn't died he would have likely been arrested.


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[kimlynn]

He wasn't 5. He was 12. Old enough to know you don't run around pointing a real looking gun at strangers. Well...I think even a 5 year old knows that. I am really tired of people treating this boy like he was some little kid playing cops and robbers. What he was doing is actually a felony. Pointing what looks like a real gun at people is assault. If he hadn't died he would have likely been arrested.


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I'm aware of his age. I have the same age children and older running around in my neighborhood with fake guns and they do point them. I have yet to see LE roll up and shoot them.Thank goodness for that. IMO

 

[popsicle]

He wasn't 5. He was 12. Old enough to know you don't run around pointing a real looking gun at strangers. Well...I think even a 5 year old knows that. I am really tired of people treating this boy like he was some little kid playing cops and robbers. What he was doing is actually a felony. Pointing what looks like a real gun at people is assault. If he hadn't died he would have likely been arrested.


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It was enough that a family member warned him to put the gun away.

Ron Regan ‏@InvestigatorRon Dec 28
Prosecutor says Tamir was warned by a relative to put the gun away.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Kids mimic what they see and they see people pointing guns on T.V. and video games. He wasn't doing anything that any other child wouldn't be doing with a toy gun. IMO

But it didn't look like a toy gun. That's the point.
The cops had NO IDEA it was a toy gun. All they knew (from the dispatcher) was that a person was pointing a gun at people.

That's what they arrived at the scene knowing.

 

[popsicle]

Kyla Campbell ‏@KylaCampbellDC Dec 28
#BREAKING: Cleveland prosecutor: It's "indisputable" that #TamirRice was drawing his gun as police officers approached him.


Kyla Campbell ‏@KylaCampbellDC Dec 28
#BREAKING: Cleveland prosecutor: It takes only 1/3 of a second or less for someone to fire a gun. #TamirRace