OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

[K_Z]

I don't think discussion of Ethan Couch's behavior is appropriate in this thread. The 2 situations have nothing at all to do with one another, and their crimes were entirely different.

 

[K_Z]

Awesome. Another person with a gun!

Well, someday, perhaps. She is too young for her own handgun right now. We are teaching her self defense, accuracy, and safety. Someday she may be in a situation where she has to do that, or save someone else.

She's also a really good black belt in Tae Kwon do. We are really proud of her. Straight A's in honors courses, too. Thanks!

 

[Kimberlyd125]

<modsnip>

Ellie:

Since you live in Louisiana, you may have heard about the case on Christmas Eve in Pride (about 20 minutes from Baton Rouge). My sister's neighbor. But anyway, a 50 something year old man got into an argument with his wife. He started damaging their house and tried to set it on fire. She left and called the fire department. The house was flagged because there had been several problems with this man.
So, the fire dept waited on the EBRSO to assist. When the EBRSO responded, the man came out with a rifle. Pulled it up and they blew him away.

Most have not heard of that case. Why? Because it was a middle aged, middle income, man who was killed.

Was he mentally ill? Maybe.

Did he deserve it? Sure he did.

Did he commit a crime? Yep but didn't hurt anybody.

But he WAS A THREAT. He posed a threat to the responding officers.

Just an example. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[KaaBoom]

It's very disingenuous, IMO, to pretend TR was a "child" just "playing" in a park. He was 5'7", and just under 200 pounds. A child only by date of birth, which the responding officers couldn't know when they encountered him.

And by the way, why does it matter at all how old he was? He wasn't known to be intellectually disabled or mentally ill, that I have read anywhere. He was a criminal suspect threatening bystanders with a gun, pulling it in and out of his waistband over and over, and pointing it at people's faces. It shouldn't matter if he was 10, 12, 16, 20, or older. The BEHAVIOR is what matters. He wasn't a toddler. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew right from wrong, IMO.


This was not my post. This was from K-Z, explaining why it was okay to gun down a child. Because if they are all grown up looking, who's to know how old they REALLY ARE?

Well, for one thing it matters, because the police officer said he thought Tamir was an adult. In which case it would be perfectly legal for him to have a real gun in the park. So he should have respected Tamir’s Second Amendment rights, and contacted him and ask if the gun was legal or not. That is a normal part of police officer work in the United States. There are thousands of video’s on YouTube showing these types of interactions between white adults and police officers, and in none of the cases do the police officers shoot or even pull their weapon on the person carrying a gun.

Also I grew up a long time ago watching westerns on TV and I played with realistic looking toy guns all the time. I also practiced quick draws on people all the time, until I was at least 12 years old. I did this with my friends while walking around the neighborhood. Cops patrolled the area all the time. I’m sure they saw us with the toy guns. Do you know what they did? They waved at us and kept right on driving. So I’m 100% sure that there is no precedent for 10 and 12 year olds to know that that is wrong, ever.

Years ago I might have agreed with you that a 16 or a 20 year old should know not to do that. But given all the CCW adults walking around trying to intimidate shoppers in Target stores, I think the trend is for adults to act like children, so why you think 10 or 12 year olds should know not to do that when adults are doing it, I have no idea.

 

[KaaBoom]

And Tamir Rice was clearly not exercising 2nd amendment rights. That's another attempt at conflating two very dissimilar issues.

I am very supportive of gun rights. Just a few days ago my spouse and I took our young teen daughter to the range for her first time. I know with full confidence that she understands that the behavior that TR displayed will get her killed.

TR didn't die because of a 2nd amendment issue.

How is that dissimilar? In a society where adult “man children” are walking around retail stores trying to intimidate shoppers with real AR-15s everyday, yet a 12 year old with a toy gun is shot down with no warning.

How is that dissimilar? Because the only possible dissimilarity I can see, is the race of the suspect. White adults do not get shot for this type of stuff ever. White children certainly do not get shot for this type of stuff ever. If thats not it, then you tell me what the dissimilarities are.

 

[KaaBoom]

Race has nothing to do with the facts. He was pointing a gun at people, that's a CRIME. 911 was called. When officers arrived he pulled it out of his pants. He was shot.

Sorry. But those are the facts.

First, those are not the fact. He was not pointing a “gun” at anyone, and therefor he committed no crime.

Second if race had nothing to do with it then, then why was this woman not shot down the same way?

Woman, 66, pointed BB gun at Connecticut cops and yelled, ‘What are you doing, shoot me!’

 

[al66pine]

First, those are not the fact. He was not pointing a &#8220;gun&#8221; at anyone, and therefor he committed no crime.
Second if race had nothing to do with it then, then why was this woman not shot down the same way?
Woman, 66, pointed BB gun at Connecticut cops and yelled, &#8216;What are you doing, shoot me!&#8217;

^bbm. Can anyone provide link w vid of woman at Torrington PD? TYVM. (I did not yet find)

"Rothenberg then allegedly stood in front of an employees-only entrance, with the handgun raised in a shooting stance. After pointing it at officers,she threw the gun and was taken into custody, police said." bbm^
http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Boom-Boom-Boom-Woman-Points-Fake-Gun-at-Police-in-Torrington-363536941.html.

Maybe b/c she threw the gun down??? IDK.

 

[KaaBoom]

That was an ld lady that was yelling SHOOT ME at the cops. It was obviously a 'suicide by cop' scenario. And she threw the gun down herself and said it was a fake. So how can you compare the two incidents?

OK but why didn&#8217;t they just get out of their car shooting at the woman in zero seconds, just like they did Tamir? They were responding to a report of a woman with a gun threatening people. You people who are defending the cops all the time, keep saying they can&#8217;t take any chances. So why did they take a chance on her?:thinking:

21 year old white man with a real gun kills 10 black people in a church. Cops catch him, take him into custody, then take him to Burger King for lunch before taking him to jail. But a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun who committed no crime, gets shot down in zero seconds.

 

[katydid23]

First, those are not the fact. He was not pointing a &#8220;gun&#8221; at anyone, and therefor he committed no crime.

Second if race had nothing to do with it then, then why was this woman not shot down the same way?

Woman, 66, pointed BB gun at Connecticut cops and yelled, &#8216;What are you doing, shoot me!&#8217;

He was pointing a gun. It was a BB gun. So it was a gun that shot projectiles. It was a crime to point it at people passing by.


The old lady in Connecticut was yelling 'shoot me , shoot me' at the cops. That made it obvious that it was a 'suicide by cop' attempt. And she threw the gun on the ground and said it was fake. So it is hard to compare the two situations, imo.

 

[katydid23]

OK but why didn&#8217;t they just get out of their car shooting at the woman in zero seconds, just like they did Tamir? They were responding to a report of a woman with a gun threatening people. You people who are defending the cops all the time, keep saying they can&#8217;t take any chances. So why did they take a chance on her?:thinking:

21 year old white man with a real gun kills 10 black people in a church. Cops catch him, take him into custody, then take him to Burger King for lunch before taking him to jail. But a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun who committed no crime, gets shot down in zero seconds.

If people want to see it as a racial thing, they will keep doing so, no matter how many times others try and explain it.

If you cannot see the difference between an old woman, yelling 'SHOOT ME ,SHOOT ME' in front of the police station, and a young black male suddenly pulling a gun out of his waistband, then I won't be able to explain it further.

These cops have seen about 700 'assault with a gun' cases in Cleveland this year. How many of those shootings were done by 63 yr old white women yelling 'Shoot Me!' ----and how many were done by young gang members in the park?

 

[KaaBoom]

^bbm. Can anyone provide link w vid of woman at Torrington PD? TYVM. (I did not yet find)

"Rothenberg then allegedly stood in front of an employees-only entrance, with the handgun raised in a shooting stance. After pointing it at officers,she threw the gun and was taken into custody, police said." bbm^
http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Boom-Boom-Boom-Woman-Points-Fake-Gun-at-Police-in-Torrington-363536941.html.

Maybe b/c she threw the gun down??? IDK.

To the best of my knowledge no video has been released of it.

But here are eight other cases of the same thing.


8 White People Who Pointed Guns At Police Officers and Managed Not to Get Killed
White guys get arrested; black guys often get shot in similar cases.

 

[KaaBoom]

If people want to see it as a racial thing, they will keep doing so, no matter how many times others try and explain it.

If you cannot see the difference between an old woman, yelling 'SHOOT ME ,SHOOT ME' in front of the police station, and a young black male suddenly pulling a gun out of his waistband, then I won't be able to explain it further.

Please explain it to me. I want to know. If you don&#8217;t explain it, then I&#8217;m going to assume you can&#8217;t.

These cops have seen about 700 'assault with a gun' cases in Cleveland this year. How many of those shootings were done by 63 yr old white women yelling 'Shoot Me!' ----and how many were done by young gang members in the park?

So in other words, cops can take chances on 63 year old white women. They can&#8217;t take chances on 12 year old black boys? That sounds like a smoking gun for it being a "racial thing&#8221;.

 

[katydid23]

Please explain it to me. I want to know. If you don&#8217;t explain it, then I&#8217;m going to assume you can&#8217;t.



So in other words, cops can take chances on 63 year old white women. They can&#8217;t take chances on 12 year old black boys? That sounds like a smoking gun for it being a "racial thing&#8221;.

They weren't taking any chances with the 65 yr old lady---she threw the gun on the ground and gave up.

It is not a 'racial' thing--it is a gang thing.

Young males can be in Latino gangs, skinhead -white power gangs, Bloods or krips, ANY NUMBER OF GANGS. A cop is always going to be more wary of a young male than he is of an old lady screaming SHOOT ME!

 

[katydid23]

To the best of my knowledge no video has been released of it.

But here are eight other cases of the same thing.


8 White People Who Pointed Guns At Police Officers and Managed Not to Get Killed
White guys get arrested; black guys often get shot in similar cases.

This is such a ridiculous stretch, the 'alter net' article. What a disingenuous spin on things.

They want us to believe that whites are not killed by cops. That is a crock.

unarmed white man shot by cop:
http://www.westernjournalism.com/uh-oh-black-police-officer-shoots-unarmed-white-man-wheres-riot/

Police reportedly arrived on scene because of a “man waving a gun around.” Taylor must have matched the description of the suspect, but witnesses claim that Taylor may have been pulling up his pants, causing the officer to think he was drawing a weapon.


White 6 yr old and his father, shot by 2 cops:

http://downtrend.com/71superb/black-cop-shoots-and-kills-6-year-old-white-boy-with-autism

Two cops (one black and one maybe black) opened fire on an unarmed white man, wounding him and killing his 6-year old son.

CBS reports that Marksville, LA officers Norris Greenhouse Jr. and Derrick Stafford were involved with a brief vehicle chase earlier this week. They have not said why they tried to pull over Christopher Few and his 6-year old autistic son Jeremy Mardis, just that they briefly pursued him.



non-black, unarmed man shot by deputy
link:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/us/san-antonio-bexar-county-texas-police-shooting/

"He put his hands in the air and then he had his hands up for a few seconds and the cops shot him twice," Thomas told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/us/seneca-teen-dead-police-shooting/
South Carolina officer shoots unarmed white teen during pot bust

You think you've heard this story before. A young, unarmed man is shot to death by a police officer. Black activists are outraged. The only difference with this scenario is that the young man was not black, but white.

Nineteen-year-old Zachary Hammond was on a date July 26 when he was fatally shot by a police officer while in parking lot at a Hardee's fast-food restaurant in Seneca, South Carolina, according to Eric Bland, the attorney representing the teen's family.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

First, those are not the fact. He was not pointing a “gun” at anyone, and therefor he committed no crime.

Second if race had nothing to do with it then, then why was this woman not shot down the same way?

Woman, 66, pointed BB gun at Connecticut cops and yelled, ‘What are you doing, shoot me!’

Yes he was. It's on video and expressed by the 911 caller. He pointed the gun at several people several times.

He then pulled the gun out of his pants when the cops arrived.

Those are the facts of THIS case.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

OK but why didn’t they just get out of their car shooting at the woman in zero seconds, just like they did Tamir? They were responding to a report of a woman with a gun threatening people. You people who are defending the cops all the time, keep saying they can’t take any chances. So why did they take a chance on her?:thinking:

21 year old white man with a real gun kills 10 black people in a church. Cops catch him, take him into custody, then take him to Burger King for lunch before taking him to jail. But a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun who committed no crime, gets shot down in zero seconds.

Why do you keep saying zero seconds? That's false.

Did the church shooter pull his gun on the responding officers?

And again, they had no idea the gun was a toy. It looked very real.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

'Indisputable' images of Tamir Rice pulling replica gun was turning point in case, prosecutor says

"You could actually see [Tamir] draw his gun on this film," McGinty said. "We could not see it in the muddied [low-resolution] film."


http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/indisputable_images_of_tamir_r.html

 

[JerseyGirl]

Timothy Loehmann, the Cleveland police officer who fatally shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice, will remain fired after losing a challenge to his firing.

Timothy Loehmann, ex-Cleveland cop who fatally shot Tamir Rice, remains fired

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I just learned about this case today. So sad especially during this time with everything going on in the world.

I had done something similar as a teenager with my friend and sister. In my neighborhood we had a wooded area behind fenced backyards. We were running around with a airsoft gun in those woods. Someone in their backyard saw us and threatened to call the police. We showed him the orange tip on the toy gun and fled.

He was only 12 which is the saddest part.

 

[al66pine]

Orange Tips? A Solution?

... I had done something similar as a teenager with my friend and sister. In my neighborhood we had a wooded area behind fenced backyards. We were running around with a airsoft gun in those woods. Someone in their backyard saw us and threatened to call the police. We showed him the orange tip on the toy gun and fled...

@aThousandYearsWide sbm bbm Glad the story ended without an arrest or injury for death.
Article: Can you tell a real gun from a toy? It's tougher than you think. Take our quiz. has several pairs of photos, each w a real gun and 'toy' gun. Can you tell the difference? I'll wait right here while you read and see for yourself. Leisurely reviewing these photos in relaxed atmosphere of a comfortable living room armchair & w perfect light and no stress, I cannot begin to tell which is the real gun (admittedly, limited experience with and exposure to firearms).
An orange tip* on 'toy gun' does not guarantee a happy or even neutral ending. Simple for a child, teen, or adult to paint or tape orange tip onto end of a gun's barrel --- toy or actual. Likewise, easy to strip off or mask a toy's orange tip, to render it seemingly 'harmless.' Then anyone looking at either type of gun has a difficult, if not impossible, time distinguishing which is which.
Hard for me to imagine standing in a police officer's shoes and seeing someone pull a gun, then judging in a split second if real or 'toy.' Throw in the variables any LEO may face.
--- weather: outdoor scene, below freezing, sweltering heat, rain, snow?
--- person to approach: angry, drunken, drug addled, mentally ill, asleep?
--- immed. environment: home, retail store, public protest, public sidewalk, empty bldg?
--- identity of individual: unknown, previously encountered & arrested, serving arrest warrant?
--- nature of 911 call: baby in danger, domestic violence, store robbery, home invasion, etc, etc.?
--- others close by: family members of person engaged, crowd gathering, pedestrians?
--- light levels: high noon, pitch black, nighttime, glaring sunrise/set, dark basement or alley?
--- proximity of back-up: partner 10 feet away, ten LEOs already out of vehicles 1/2 block away, or two other LEOs 20 min away?
--- plus other factors.
Are you back from the link? How many of the guns could you correctly identify as real? As toy?Who wants to try ^this^ in real life? I'm gonna to move to the end of line. Getting pretty long.
'Toy' guns are used in actual crimes, w ppl scared into compliance by virtue of seeing the gun's shape. Should LE training lull LEOs into a sense of complacency "Oh, no danger, it's a toy" then be shot at, injured, or killed after seeing orange tips? Legislation requiring orange tips on certain gun-look alikes is not a complete or reliable solution for LE or the public in trying to distinguish 'toy' guns from real guns. What a quandry.
my 2 cts.
..................................................................................................................
* Toy gun - Wikipedia.