OH - Three students killed in Chardon High School shooting, 27 Feb 2012

[Inspector Gidget]

Harris was a full blown sociopath. And you are correct, he was never bullied. He was a MAJOR bully. Klebold was suicidal and longed for a girlfriend and obsessively doodled hearts in his journal. He ultimately went dark under Harris's strong influence. In Cullen's book you find out that Klebold actually made a few feeble attempts to "stop" the shooting in the weeks before it occurred. But in the end, he was a follower and he truly wanted to die. That book blew my mind. The media got almost every single aspect of reporting wrong on Columbine. The incorrect information coming out during the chaos of the attacks stuck and still permeate our idea of school shootings to this day.

They were not in any "trench coat mafia" they were never bullied and they were not "outcasts."

In our violence obsessed culture, A sociopath and a suicidal teenager met and it was unfortunately the perfect storm.

Eric was showing signs of terror for years before columbine. The level of his sociopathy, his charm, his manipulations, were unreal. Brooks' mother was absolutely terrified of him. She warned the cops, she filed complaints. The police department dropped the ball years before the shootings happened and then spent years covering it up.

So so sad.

Wow I think the media was way off.I will have to read this book.

 

[HMSHood]

Harris was a full blown sociopath. And you are correct, he was never bullied. He was a MAJOR bully. Klebold was suicidal and longed for a girlfriend and obsessively doodled hearts in his journal. He ultimately went dark under Harris's strong influence. In Cullen's book you find out that Klebold actually made a few feeble attempts to "stop" the shooting in the weeks before it occurred. But in the end, he was a follower and he truly wanted to die. That book blew my mind. The media got almost every single aspect of reporting wrong on Columbine. The incorrect information coming out during the chaos of the attacks stuck and still permeate our idea of school shootings to this day.

They were not in any "trench coat mafia" they were never bullied and they were not "outcasts."

In our violence obsessed culture, A sociopath and a suicidal teenager met and it was unfortunately the perfect storm. There are so many reasons that these shootings happen and its not about bullying. Its about mental illness, teenage issues, home environment, chronic exposure to violence, loopholes in gun laws. So many things contribute and we have to look at all of them and decide or try to make changes. Kids are dying in school shootings in alarming numbers. So disturbing.

Eric was showing signs of terror for years before columbine. The level of his sociopathy, his charm, his manipulations, were unreal. Brooks' mother was absolutely terrified of him. She warned the cops, she filed complaints. The police department dropped the ball years before the shootings happened and then spent years covering it up.

So so sad.

If I recall, I read that the Trench Coat Mafia hated Harris and Klebold. They called Klebold "Spider Man" for his long arms and violent temper he had. They said Klebold was a bully and liked hitting people and talking back at teachers.

Klebold was a follower, like I mentioned, Ashley Grills. One of the accomplice of Lori Drew, another psychopath like Eric Harris. Klebold was well liked yet he felt rejected by society. Looking at a content of what they wrote does not entirely tell you what they are. They did mention Oklahoma City Bombing and Waco, but in terms of topping them, not revenge. I think it was revenge directed at the government for Waco as well.

 

[Spice]

Wow I think the media was way off.I will have to read this book.

Let me know if you do and how you like it. It is unbelievably eye opening. You'll never see the shootings in the same way. Things did not happen at all they way that they were reported and reiterated with every tragedy since then.

In fact.....you will be horrified to realize how huge that attack was supposed to really be. So many of his bombs failed (which has been reported) but some were placed and supposed to explode on the media while they were reporting on live TV. That was part of his meticulous plan and he did plan it down to the minute.

Eric shot way more bullets than Dylan did by the way. WAY WAY more. Which if found very interesting and true to his personality outlined in the book. It suggests that he only shot just enough to impress Dylan and most likely missed on purpose most of the time. Dylan was suicidal. Eric was totally homicidal.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

The question is how do we prevent this from happening.I think a part of it could be free mental health care and prescriptions.Not everyone has insurance and the ones that do,still have to pay a big difference.If you as a parent can't afford to take them,how do they get treated?

 

[bellyup]

If you ever want to read the definitive book on Columbine. Read "Columbine" by Dave Cullen. It ide mystifies so much of the misinformation we have about that event and school shootings in general. He spent ten years researching and writing it. Those particular shooters were not even bullied. The media just ran with it and that has become the myth associated in every school shooting since. It's all much deeper than that. I'm not saying this kid was exactly like the shooters from Columbine, but his rant on facebook reeks of antisocial thoughts. He is all powerful, hates and detests everybody, and wants to kill them all.

I've read the book, and studied Columbine from about a bazillion different angles. I don't agree that the Columbine shooters were not "bullied". Isolation, social rejection, popularity, lack of family involvement, etc. can all be forms of bullying (aside from the things we traditionally attribute to bullying).

I also think to lump the two together into any "profile" causes a severe injustice. They did not do what they did for identical reasons. And I have no doubt that BOTH boys engaged in behaviors that could be classified as THEM doing the bullying.

Parent of the victims have read testimony from those that said they bullied at least one or both of the Columbine shooters. Why would kids "tell on themselves" if it wasn't TRUE? Dylan's best friend reported the bullying several times. There are police reports for prior incidents. I had opportunity to sit with the father of one of the victims... and trust me there is no doubt that these boys were on the lower end of the social scale in that school and that they were treated badly because of it.

Cullen also claims they weren't on anti-depressant meds, but this is completely false. Harris autopsy showed therapeutic levels of fluvoxamine (luvox). Klebold was diagnosed as depressed and suicidal by more then one mental health professional.

Cullen's book is an opinion based article with little basis in fact.

TJ Lane's post may have SEEMED antisocial, but antisocial / introvert doesn't equate to murderer. It also doesn't equate to being a sociopath.

There's a lot more too it. Just like there was with the Columbine shootings.

 

[Spice]

If I recall, I read that the Trench Coat Mafia hated Harris and Klebold. They called Klebold "Spider Man" for his long arms and violent temper he had. They said Klebold was a bully and liked hitting people and talking back at teachers.

Klebold was a follower, like I mentioned, Ashley Grills. One of the accomplice of Lori Drew, another psychopath like Eric Harris. Klebold was well liked yet he felt rejected by society. Looking at a content of what they wrote does not entirely tell you what they are. They did mention Oklahoma City Bombing and Waco, but in terms of topping them, not revenge. I think it was revenge directed at the government for Waco as well.

The government stuff was just teenage drama and posturing. Eric was a homicidal sociopath. He just wanted to KILL TO KILL. Dylan had some emotional problems since he was little and could not handle confrontations and would lash out and cry. I forgot exactly what it was but it was always there. Eric's father was very high ranking in the military and extremely rigid. There was no lack of discipline in the home but a lack of relationship if that makes any sense. Also a very high level of expectation. Dylan's parents were as hippie as you could possibly get and were against any kind of violence and guns. They were also very supportive of him and close knit, they didn't know the depths of his depression...which was suicidal in nature. There was also a girl that Eric "loved". She was older and had rejected him when she found out about his age. They were both arrested for breaking into a car and were in an intervention program. Eric fooled his counselor and played him like a piano as well as the judge. He started planning the shootings right after his arrest and those close to the investigation believe this is what set him off. He wasnt going to be able to join the military after that...and that is what he wanted to do and what his father always expected him to do.

Read the book. I don't want to give it all away. lol! It is incredibly thorough and answers so many questions that have never been answered.

 

[bellyup]

There are so many reasons that these shootings happen and its not about bullying. Its about mental illness, teenage issues, home environment, chronic exposure to violence, loopholes in gun laws. So many things contribute and we have to look at all of them and decide or try to make changes. Kids are dying in school shootings in alarming numbers. So disturbing.

Eric was showing signs of terror for years before columbine. The level of his sociopathy, his charm, his manipulations, were unreal. Brooks' mother was absolutely terrified of him. She warned the cops, she filed complaints. The police department dropped the ball years before the shootings happened and then spent years covering it up.

So so sad.

I will agree with most of what you wrote here, HOWEVER I will saying that bullying, social isolation, being an outcast, etc. DO play into these events. It's all the little pieces that come together. No single "cause" can be perfectly isolated so that we can say "A-ha!! That caused it!!"

I still attest that Cullen's writing is an opinion based work, and there are hundreds of other accounts that contradict what he wrote.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

The government stuff was just teenage drama and posturing. Eric was a homicidal sociopath. He just wanted to KILL TO KILL. Dylan had some emotional problems since he was little and could not handle confrontations and would lash out and cry. I forgot exactly what it was but it was always there. Eric's father was very high ranking in the military and extremely rigid. There was no lack of discipline in the home but a lack of relationship if that makes any sense. Also a very high level of expectation. Dylan's parents were as hippie as you could possibly get and were against any kind of violence and guns. They were also very supportive of him and close knit, they didn't know the depths of his depression...which was suicidal in nature. There was also a girl that Eric "loved". She was older and had rejected him when she found out about his age. They were both arrested for breaking into a car and were in an intervention program. Eric fooled his counselor and played him like a piano as well as the judge. He started planning the shootings right after his arrest and those close to the investigation believe this is what set him off. He wasnt going to be able to join the military after that...and that is what he wanted to do and what his father always expected him to do.

Read the book. I don't want to give it all away. lol! It is incredibly thorough and answers so many questions that have never been answered.

These boys needed to be in a psychotic ward and not in school.

 

[Spice]

I've read the book, and studied Columbine from about a bazillion different angles. I don't agree that the Columbine shooters were not "bullied". Isolation, social rejection, popularity, lack of family involvement, etc. can all be forms of bullying (aside from the things we traditionally attribute to bullying).

I also think to lump the two together into any "profile" causes a severe injustice. They did not do what they did for identical reasons. And I have no doubt that BOTH boys engaged in behaviors that could be classified as THEM doing the bullying.

Parent of the victims have read testimony from those that said they bullied at least one or both of the Columbine shooters. Why would kids "tell on themselves" if it wasn't TRUE? Dylan's best friend reported the bullying several times. There are police reports for prior incidents. I had opportunity to sit with the father of one of the victims... and trust me there is no doubt that these boys were on the lower end of the social scale in that school and that they were treated badly because of it.

Cullen also claims they weren't on anti-depressant meds, but this is completely false. Harris autopsy showed therapeutic levels of fluvoxamine (luvox). Klebold was diagnosed as depressed and suicidal by more then one mental health professional.

Cullen's book is an opinion based article with little basis in fact.

TJ Lane's post may have SEEMED antisocial, but antisocial / introvert doesn't equate to murderer. It also doesn't equate to being a sociopath.

There's a lot more too it. Just like there was with the Columbine shootings.

I am sorry but I beg to differ. That book was absolutely not based on opinion, one would only have to look at the reams of research that he actually cites in the back of the book. Including the FBI and those close to the investigation. He also had access to Dylan's parents who sat with him for an interview which they had never done before. Cullen absolutely states that they were on psych meds, and in fact notes that Eric's had just changed and its side effects were known to cause aggression and rage.

I have studied columbine from a lot of angles as well. I am currently finishing up my degree in social work and wrote a MAJOR paper on it. I never said that being introverted equates to murder. What I said is that from my point of view, if one of my clients wrote such words and then shot up his school...I would have to say that they were a warning and they do reek of antisocial thoughts. They just do. They are not just words on a paper they are his thoughts, and those thoughts are of an antisocial nature.

The media made a federal case about Dylan and Eric being victims of chronic bullying. It is simply not true. Eric bullied ALOT of people, just ask his friend Brooks and Brooks' terrified mother. They may have experienced high school BS but in no way were they cowering in the corner without a friend in the world. They had just gone to prom, had jobs, and a regular social life. The bullying, or at least the level that it has been portrayed in this case, is mythical in nature.

Eric was a sociopath and he was homicidal. Dylan was suicidal. They met and no one noticed the years of warning signs of what was to come. The arrests, the bullying that he committed against others, the arsenal he was building, the encyclopedic journals recording all of his murderous thoughts, his terrorizing of Brooks and his mother which are all documented on police reports.

Saying that Cullen's book is an opinon is simply the opinion of that writer. Cullen backed up his book with copious amounts of research and unprecedented access to family, friends, the FBI,and documents that were sealed for more than a decade.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

"Cullen absolutely states that they were on psych meds, and in fact notes that Eric's had just changed and its side effects were known to cause aggression and rage." Sorry don't know how to bold from above post.

Now that is very scary and sad

 

[Spice]

Well...maybe. I thought the only thing the piece reeked of was bad writing, hurriedly done, played for rhyme - that unfortunate element became what, obviously, he enjoyed when writing it - but without any sort of rhythm of its own: a flat affect. The mythical overtones - castle (a personified one, no less); guards; peasents (sic); the Renaissance; "Lucifer's Laboratory"; the "dismal drear" (?? - actually the only part of this I liked as that little bit does have a sort of 17th c. appeal to it) - were relatively undeveloped, and very little - if any - of it would be, as a piece of prose, salvageable by re-writing. In fact, he spends so little time developing anything that it's sort of an insult to the reader, this cavalier treatment of, well, most everything that goes into good writing of this sort: developing specific detail, organizing one's imagery, attending to a basic storyline.

(Just speaking as an English teacher here, one who has read a zillion pieces of student writing, grades 9 through college sophomore. Not attempting to harvest much psychological fruit, really.)

The attention-getter comes well down the paragraph, right after the complete non sequitur of the Blue Öyster Cult song mention: then, "I am Death." Before, it's been all third-person and then, suddenly - wham. The prose doesn't improve at all, but the last four words - "Die, all of you" - do arrest one's attention. So, in sum: sort of a Dungeons and Dragons type of thing, slathered in a fair amount of misogyny, important enough to the writer to have posted it to his FB yet not important enough to have spent much time actually developing. The stuff of which sociopaths are made? Wouldn't go that far. First, it's more indicative, I think, of depression on the writer's part. Second, thousands of teenage boys have written this sort of thing; very, very few wind up sociopaths. One couldn't have used this to predict his future actions.

(Though, if he were my student back in my h.s. days, I'd definitely speak with a guidance counselor and an administrator about him, just based on the "I am Death," / "Die, all of you" bits. They do tend to trouble; and so - one must do one's due diligence.)

As an English teacher bad writing must drive you crazy. lol! I am approaching it within a psychological framework though and not his style of prose, which I agree is dramatic and sophomoric ; ). I also agree that many teenagers write drama laden and terrible poetry but most of them do not shoot and terrorize their schools. This boy did, therefore his words deserve to be looked at as his thoughts and I am sorry but those thoughts are clearly antisocial and shooting your fellow classmates is also antisocial behavior of the highest degree.

Whatever happened to this kid, I am positive that he has endured a ton of pain and he unfortunately directed that pain not inside but at others in the most violent way. It is not enough for us all to have a one track mind and play the broken record that these kids are goth outcasts that were being bullied and play too many video games. We are oversimplifying every single time based on the myths of Columbine. Bullying is a severe problem yes, but it is not the answer for every school shooting. There are many other factors, Bio-psycho-social factors in nature.

And now I am freaking out and want to edit for grammar, look for my thesis statement and see if my paragraphs support. :wink: I say that with all sincerity. I love teachers, you are on the front lines, just like social workers and do one of the most important jobs that that there is. Teachers change lives. Thank you for all that you do.

 

[Spice]

"Cullen absolutely states that they were on psych meds, and in fact notes that Eric's had just changed and its side effects were known to cause aggression and rage."

Now that is very scary and sad

They either changed or he had stopped taking them...either way. Yes. very very sad.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Ok - we're getting a little O/T with all this Columbine stuff.

Let's get back to this case.

What has me sitting here pondering tonight is what we can do, as a society, to change our education system. First, it must be made safer. Second, once our children feel safe, we then need to focus on educating the whole child in an effort to stop all this school violence.

I mentioned metal detectors in all high schools earlier and I strongly believe in this. It needs to happen. I also strongly believe in cameras in every classroom. With video proof a lot of the reported bullying can be substantiated and dealt with.

Also, I think there is a "need" for new positions. Monitors for social media. Facebook, twitter, etc. and NOT just for the students but the teachers as well. There are far too many incompetent teachers slipping through the hiring cracks and getting to our kids.

More competent teachers in the schools would help tremendously in identifying red flags and helping students like TJL which would then avert tragedies like we saw today.

Thoughts?

 

[brighidin]

I am sorry but I beg to differ. That book was absolutely not based on opinion, one would only have to look at the reams of research that he actually cites in the back of the book.

Saying that Cullen's book is an opinon is simply the opinion of that writer. Cullen backed up his book with copious amounts of research and unprecedented access to family, friends, the FBI,and documents that were sealed for more than a decade.

Not to belabour the point, because it isn't the topic of this thread, but everything everyone writes is their interpretation, their opinion. To claim the book isn't Cullen's opinion because of all the research he did doesn't make sense. I'm working on a PhD: most of my chapters have over 100 footnotes, I am using interviews, and my bibliography is ridiculously long. Still, I'm interpreting the evidence. Someone else could very well write the exact opposite dissertation using the same records because they approached it differently or interpreted the records differently.

Much like, in this very thread, you see a few posters analyzing the story/poem (?) from TJ's FB all very differently. I'm off to try to find that now, incidentally.... Actually, I have a different interpretation of it already, even though I haven't read it yet. I notice that a few of you have commented on his lack of paragraph structure. Its kind of hard to use paragraph breaks on FB. I know that often when I try, it just posts what I've already written. Copying from Word just makes things worse in terms of formatting. I just finished grading a batch of second year university essays. More than one ( ) student's essay was one long paragraph. Several didn't use punctuation. I am relatively sure I wasn't teaching a room full of evil young adults or sociopaths.

 

[Spice]

Not to belabour the point, because it isn't the topic of this thread, but everything everyone writes is their interpretation, their opinion. To claim the book isn't Cullen's opinion because of all the research he did doesn't make sense.I'm working on a PhD: most of my chapters have over 100 footnotes, I am using interviews, and my bibliography is ridiculously long. Still, I'm interpreting the evidence. Someone else could very well write the exact opposite dissertation using the same records because they approached it differently or interpreted the records differently.

Much like, in this very thread, you see a few posters analyzing the story/poem ?) from TJ's FB all very differently. I'm off to try to find that now, incidentally.... Actually, I have a different interpretation of it already, even though I haven't read it yet. I notice that a few of you have commented on his lack of paragraph structure. Its kind of hard to use paragraph breaks on FB. I know that often when I try, it just posts what I've already written. Copying from Word just makes things worse in terms of formatting. I just finished grading a batch of second year university essays. More than one ( ) student's essay was one long paragraph. Several didn't use punctuation. I am relatively sure I wasn't teaching a room full of evil young adults or sociopaths.

To be clear, I said that his words reek of sociopathy. I never said that he was a full blown sociopath. I am not in the position to diagnose anybody at this point nor would I if I have never met a person. That being said and for the sake of debate, TJ was clearly having antisocial thoughts and his antisocial thoughts culminated in antisocial behavior. I am sure that we can all agree on that.

Agreed on the fact that Cullen was interpreting his research from his point of view, but he did do ten years of research and that counts for something or at least far more than just spouting off an opinion.

Congrats on pursuing your PhD, it is an amazing accomplishment and an unbelievable undertaking.

I am going to stop with the Columbine talk now so that I do not upset Owl.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

Ok - we're getting a little O/T with all this Columbine stuff.

Let's get back to this case.

What has me sitting here pondering tonight is what we can do, as a society, to change our education system. First, it must be made safer. Second, once our children feel safe, we then need to focus on educating the whole child in an effort to stop all this school violence.

I mentioned metal detectors in all high schools earlier and I strongly believe in this. It needs to happen. I also strongly believe in cameras in every classroom. With video proof a lot of the reported bullying can be substantiated and dealt with.

Also, I think there is a "need" for new positions. Monitors for social media. Facebook, twitter, etc. and NOT just for the students but the teachers as well. There are far too many incompetent teachers slipping through the hiring cracks and getting to our kids.

More competent teachers in the schools would help tremendously in identifying red flags and helping students like TJL which would then avert tragedies like we saw today.

Thoughts?

I agree with you ,now where is the money coming from? There are already budget cuts in schools.Where I am they are thinking about hiring contractors for bus drivers,maintenance etc.I think the state lottery money should go toward the school system.

All schools need to enforce the zero tolerance policy

 

[Dr. Know?]

For such differing opinions on TJ being bullied or was one, I'm going to wait for all of his homelife etc...to come out. I don't think he's a Jared Loughner yet, but it's too early without his background to speculate on why he did this, for me. It will never make sense, but maybe there will be something to understand and correct if possible, or look for. jmo xoxo

Big big prayers to the families, to the community & those who suffered and died on this sad day. RIP.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Well out state lottery money does go to education BUT (and this is the BIG ONE that nobody paid any attention to when they passed it) for every dollar that the lottery contributes then the State can "pull that dollar" out of education and put it somewhere else. So, in a nutshell, the lottery isn't supplementing it is "replacing".

There are lots of "places" that any school district can "pull money from". Most districts have this policy of purchasing from approved vendors. An example of mine was for a classroom set (box) of Crayola markers. These are big boxes of 16 colors with each color having like 12 markers. There is an online company - Classroom Direct - that sells these boxes for $25.00 (not exact - just using that amount as example) but I wasn't allowed to purchase my box through them because they weren't on the approved vendor list - the approved vendor for those boxes charged the district like $55.00 per box.

Construction and building accounts for the districts are also unusually large and could be revamped with more money going into classrooms.

Textbook adoptions also have a whole lot of "fluff" and the districts spend millions on those.

Metal detectors and cameras are one time expenses. Once they are in - that's it.

There is also a big, pink elephant in the room when it comes to funding education - but I won't go into that. Although, here in my neck of the woods, it is costing us taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars each year.

My district's yearly budget is $5 billion. Yep, FIVE BILLION PER YEAR. That is outrageous. Just one county in just one state. Yet our kids are failing every year - go figger.

 

[wfgodot]

Latest AP overview from about ten minutes ago; don't think there's much new here but a good short
read for those who might be playing catch-up with this tragic case:

1 dead, 4 wounded in Ohio high school shooting

And Daily Mail's tabloid take, lengthy and with an abundance of pictures, of course, plus two videos:

'Die all of you': Chilling letter written by student who shot dead two
and injured three in Ohio spree found showing his troubled thoughts

And there it is again, the basic discrepancy in number of dead and wounded.

 

[bellyup]

(deleted as Owl asked us to quit talking about Columbine)