OH - Three students killed in Chardon High School shooting, 27 Feb 2012

[Spice]

Who said TJ was abused, depressed or anything else? Obviously, he has issues, he shot 5 kids! Some people said he was a very nice boy, some said quiet etc..many different accounts. We do not know what was going on in his head. I will wait for a doctor's report. I am not looking at things in black and white and I don't recall calling him a "monster." A murderer, yes! I said we need to learn from this and try to avoid another tragedy like this. But, you can't police and parent every single child.

I do understand what you are saying and I just disagree that all kids can be helped or saved. If that were true, we wouldn't have adults committing crimes either.

I think some of us are shocked this happens, because we can't understand why anyone could or would take a gun to school and open fire on children. We aren't shocked it happened, just can't believe it does happen. There are SO many resources and other options. TJ had grandparents, who looked like very nice people, they took him him, sat in court today for him! He had SO many other choices, he chose to kill.

I wish there was a magic want to understand and prevent such tragedies, but there isn't. I'm sure, since Columbine, many incidents have been stopped and prevented. This school did so much to minimize more deaths/injuries. They reacted and saved lives! TJ didn't attend this school, yet he shot the kids who did.

It happened, it can't be changed. The families deserve justice. The students deserve to feel safe. The coach and the rest of the staff deserve medals! TJ deserves to never see the light of day again.

JMO

Have you read the arrest record of his father? His grandparents have had custody of him since he was five years old. It is VERY difficult to terminate parental rights, and his either terminated willingly or by court order due to neglect or abuse. There seems to have been DV in his home and I wouldn't be surprised if he witnessed it. Even if he didn't, how do you think he felt about that fact that his biological parents were not in his life? I am willing to bet the farm that it depressed him amongst other things.

TJ is in kinship foster care and his parents are alive. That is never ever a good sign.

I agree with you that the families deserve justice, I do agree that TJ needs consequences that are way more than a slap on the wrist for taking the lives of those poor kids. I do not agree that a child should ever be put to death or tried as an adult. And I do not believe that there is even one precious and innocent baby on this earth that was born evil. Our environment is everything and it is paramount in shaping us, along with our genetics. Everything must be approached within a bio-psycho-social framework to truly be understood.

Thanks for debating with me. I really did enjoy your post.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Okay......so, if your teenage neighbor breaks into your house and steals one of your kitchen knives and then stabs a student to death at school with it, we should prosecute YOU?

Same question concerning your vehicle (killing machine), your prescription medications, your nail gun, etc etc etc....[/QUOTE

No. If your teenage neighbor breaks into your house and steals your GUN and shoots someone with it, you should be prosecuted. GUNS are lethal weapons, their sole purpose is to kill. If you're going to have a gun , you better be prepared to accept the consequences of destroying innocent lives with it. Guns are not a necessary component of contemporary society. Gun owners should always be held responsible for the havoc they create.

Add baseball bats and golf clubs to your list of lethal weapons. Gun owners do not create havoc, killers do. You can kill someone with a rope, with a plastic bag, or a hammer it's not any different.

This kid didn't get the gun then think "oh hey something to use to kill someone", he intentionally stole a gun to kill someone, he also had a knife. An object does not create intent.

 

[Isabelle]

I am in tears,it only gets worse.Please everyone pray hard for this and every family who lost a loved one to this monster.They are wearing his clothing to honor him.What a kind and loving gesture.

So sad. When these people heard their son was dead, they entered the gates of hell and will not escape until their own death. I know, I've been in hell for 8+ years after losing my 22 year old son.

 

[doubt]

i mentioned this earlier but just want to do so one more time here, as i think some might find it eye-opening.

there is a film called ''beautiful boy'' currently on demand where i live. it stars maria bello. it is about a school massacre, committed by a student, but told through the eyes of shooter's victims.

finally, i know a family whose son died in columbine. they focused their grief and sadness and pain on changing laws, not on the parents of the boys who killed their own. i have always admired them greatly for that.

 

[Only4Justice]

The family attorney's statement and his comments about the suspect are classic lawyer-speak. The shootings were "something that could never have been predicted". There's the use of the passive voice..."try to understand how such a tragedy could have occurred"...."a very scary circumstance that I don't think he could have possibly even foreseen himself in the middle of".

The "tragedy" simply "occurred" and the suspect just happened to find himself "in the middle of" it with a smoking gun. A very scary circumstance indeed!

The psychiatrists will line up soon to give their "opinions", and the insanity defense will follow. Poor kid, he was bullied and just snapped one morning.
Either that, or someone stole his girlfriend. That could make any kid want to kill a bunch of people.

I'm so tired of the hand-wringing over the suspects in these incidents. I hope the media keeps the focus on the victims and the heinousness of this crime. I don't want to hear about how "confused" and "scared" this young killer is.

POST OF THE DAY! I Totally Agree. :banghead::banghead:

 

[AngelWings444]

Have you read the arrest record of his father? His grandparents have had custody of him since he was five years old. It is VERY difficult to terminate parental rights, and his either terminated willingly or by court order due to neglect or abuse. There seems to have been DV in his home and I wouldn't be surprised if he witnessed it. Even if he didn't, how do you think he felt about that fact that his biological parents were not in his life? I am willing to be the farm that it depressed him amongst other things.

TJ is in kinship foster care and his parents are alive. That is never ever a good sign.

I agree with you that the families deserve justice, I do agree that TJ needs consequences that are way more than a slap on the wrist for taking the lives of those poor kids. I do not agree that a child should ever be put to death or tried as an adult. Thanks for debating with me. I really did enjoy your post.

If his parents haven't had custody since he was 5 years old and he lived with his grandparents since then, are you blaming the grandparents? Many, many kids who don't live with their biological parents don't kill. Many kids who are adopted, don't kill. Many kids who have lived with DV, see it every single day, are abused etc..do not kill. He must have felt really bad his parents didn't have custody of him, and were not the perfect parents, doesn't mean you shoot 3 kids in the head. Teenagers get depressed, they don't usually kill because of it. Again, I will wait for the doctor's report as we certainly can't diagnose TJ based on his living circumstances, which we read about from friends and family. Nor can we diagnose him on his parents prior court case. I will agree they has huge issues and weren't The Beavers.

It's nice to have a conversation with you too. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not believe everyone is curable and can be helped. Certainly, I don't think this child killer will ever be a productive member of society.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

Lane told authorities that he stole the gun used in the shootings from his uncle, a source told CNN on Tuesday.

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/local/Three-Dead-In-Ohio-School-Shooting-140756673.html

 

[Isabelle]

There is such a difference in TJ's appearance in what looked like a yearbook photo and what he looked like when arrested. He appears gaunt and malnourished. Wonder if there were drugs involved compounded by depression or any other psych condition undiagnosed.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

So sad. When these people heard their son was dead, they entered the gates of hell and will not escape until their own death. I know, I've been in hell for 8+ years after losing my 22 year old son.

I am so sorry for your loss,I am sure he is now an angel looking over you.

 

[Spice]

i mentioned this earlier but just want to do so one more time here, as i think some might find it eye-opening.

there is a film called ''beautiful boy'' currently on demand where i live. it stars maria bello. it is about a school massacre, committed by a student, but told through the eyes of shooter's victims.

finally, i know a family whose son died in columbine. they focused their grief and sadness and pain on changing laws, not on the parents of the boys who killed their own. i have always admired them greatly for that.

It truly is amazing how they focused their grief on change. The ridiculous gun show loopholes in our gun "control" need to be changed. Statistically, 8 children and teenagers die by guns every single day. Something is terribly wrong.

Guns don't kill people, People with guns kill people. :wink:

Responsible gun owners are one thing, but there are too many loopholes that are adding to a massive problem. It can no longer be ignored and there must be a compromise.

 

[iamnotagolem]

It truly is amazing how they focused their grief on change. The ridiculous gun show loopholes in our gun "control" need to be changed. Statistically, 8 children and teenagers die by guns every single day. Something is terribly wrong.

Guns don't kill people, People with guns kill people. :wink:

Responsible gun owners are one thing, but there are too many loopholes that are adding to a massive problem. It can no longer be ignored and there must be a compromise.

Logically speaking, it's not the guns, it's not gun laws, it's not gun anything. It's the criminals. If guns didn't exist there would be no school shootings. There would be school stabbings, beatings, hangings, etc. Where there's a will, there's a way. Killing didn't start with guns, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

 

[Spice]

If his parents haven't had custody since he was 5 years old and he lived with his grandparents since then, are you blaming the grandparents?

Not at all. TJ was lucky to have loving grandparents to take him in. Watching older children (non infants) shuffled between foster homes only to age out is devastating to see. As far as we know, TJ had a wonderful blessing in his grandparents.

Many, many kids who don't live with their biological parents don't kill. Many kids who are adopted, don't kill.

I agree.

Many kids who have lived with DV, see it every single day, are abused etc..do not kill.

Again, I agree. I am one of them.

He must have felt really bad his parents didn't have custody of him, and were not the perfect parents, doesn't mean you shoot 3 kids in the head. Teenagers get depressed, they don't usually kill because of it.

Again, you are correct. But a small percentage of them do lash out at others, others hurt themselves. I never made a sweeping generalization about any of these things. I said that they could definitely be factors in trying to understand, not excuse, his behavior.

Again, I will wait for the doctor's report as we certainly can't diagnose TJ based on his living circumstances, which we read about from friends and family. Nor can we diagnose him on his parents prior court case. I will agree they has huge issues and weren't The Beavers.

I am not diagnosing him. The prosecutor said that TJ was "not well." and I said that I wasn't surprised. Clinical depression in teenagers is a major and under treated problem, and this could be the case with TJ or it could be something else entirely. He certainly had enough working against him with the little that we do know, and I don't expect that further reports will be any better.

It's nice to have a conversation with you too. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not believe everyone is curable and can be helped. Certainly, I don't think this child killer will ever be a productive member of society.

I am totally fine with agreeing to disagree and respect that you have a differing view. It would be a very boring world if we all had the same opinion. I know that my opinions are not popular and I thank you for having civilized debate with me. Again, I want to stress that the families deserve justice and TJ should experience consequences for his horrific actions.

BBM

 

[AngelWings444]

i mentioned this earlier but just want to do so one more time here, as i think some might find it eye-opening.

there is a film called ''beautiful boy'' currently on demand where i live. it stars maria bello. it is about a school massacre, committed by a student, but told through the eyes of shooter's victims.

finally, i know a family whose son died in columbine. they focused their grief and sadness and pain on changing laws, not on the parents of the boys who killed their own. i have always admired them greatly for that.

The victims of the Columbine shooting couldn't focus on the killers because they killed themselves. They didn't have to worry about them ever walking our streets or hurting our children again. The parents did put the blame solely on the guy who sold the minors the gun, their own words. As the judge in that case said, justice will never be served.

The film sounds interesting. Don't know if I can stomach it though...

 

[marlame]

What haunts me is WHY? How could this happen? What causes somebody to do this? Before we can do anything to prevent this we must begin to understand it...

My thoughts and prayers go out to the kids and families of Chardon H.S. They are forever changed. This is just so very sad.

Why Do Kids Kill?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5629920-504083.html

"...most children who kill were abused or neglected, and never emotionally attached to a parent or anyone else. Others might have been overindulged and never learned boundaries. Either way, they don't know how to cope with anger and emotional distress and end up resorting to violence. Another common denominator in many of the cases is that a gun was readily available. A gun is the weapon of choice for most kids who kill...

Heide has interviewed more than 150 children who either killed someone or tried to and consulted on hundreds more cases. A licensed mental health counselor, she still treats troubled children as part of a limited practice, reasoning that she might be able to prevent the next tragedy."

 

[mrsu]

If his parents haven't had custody since he was 5 years old and he lived with his grandparents since then, are you blaming the grandparents? Many, many kids who don't live with their biological parents don't kill. Many kids who are adopted, don't kill. Many kids who have lived with DV, see it every single day, are abused etc..do not kill. He must have felt really bad his parents didn't have custody of him, and were not the perfect parents, doesn't mean you shoot 3 kids in the head. Teenagers get depressed, they don't usually kill because of it. Again, I will wait for the doctor's report as we certainly can't diagnose TJ based on his living circumstances, which we read about from friends and family. Nor can we diagnose him on his parents prior court case. I will agree they has huge issues and weren't The Beavers.

It's nice to have a conversation with you too. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not believe everyone is curable and can be helped. Certainly, I don't think this child killer will ever be a productive member of society.

Do you think that anything that happened in his life before the age of 5 could have helped to shape him into the person he is? Trauma inflicted upon someone does not just poof! disappear once they are living with grandparents. I would imagine he struggled with emotional issues his entire life and with the confusion and sense of finding one's self that comes at this age...there was a sense of overwhelming hoplessness. My biological father wanted nothing to do with me, but continued on with a new family and new kids that he treated wonderfully. That hurts tremendously. TREMENDOUSLY. I struggled as a teen, but was able to overcome...at times though it was very, very difficult to see the light. Couple that with anything else going wrong in my life at the time and you've got a slippery slope.

I agree with you that all children who have horrible childhoods, do not commit school shootings, BUT we are not talking about those people. We are talking about the ones that DO...this one that did. There are just too many variables to simply lump them all together in one category. It is something, at the very least, worthy of trying to understand on a case by case basis instead of making generalized assumptions.

I am terribly sorry to the families who have lost their children, I just couldn't even imagine, and hope I never have to. My sincere condolences go out to each one of them. I am also not in any way excusing TJ's actions. It was a senseless heinous act, and he deserves to be punished. I just ask that maybe a second be given to the thought that this could be any one of our children...and I imagine views would change if it were. We love our children and I'm guessing would never call them monsters when we've not know them to be their entire lives. TJ had people that loved him as well. Surely they didn't think he was a monster, or even capable of such a thing. But he was. It's too bad he didn't understand there were people who loved him.

This post has me finding myself very passionate, and therefore, I am signing off this thread for the night. I apologize if there is a lack of response to you.

 

[AngelWings444]

Do you think that anything that happened in his life before the age of 5 could have helped to shape him into the person he is? Trauma inflicted upon someone does not just poof! disappear once they are living with grandparents. I would imagine he struggled with emotional issues his entire life and with the confusion and sense of finding one's self that comes at this age...there was a sense of overwhelming hoplessness. My biological father wanted nothing to do with me, but continued on with a new family and new kids that he treated wonderfully. That hurts tremendously. TREMENDOUSLY. I struggled as a teen, but was able to overcome...at times though it was very, very difficult to see the light. Couple that with anything else going wrong in my life at the time and you've got a slippery slope.

I agree with you that all children who have horrible childhoods, do not commit school shootings, BUT we are not talking about those people. We are talking about the ones that DO...this one that did. There are just too many variables to simply lump them all together in one category. It is something, at the very least, worthy of trying to understand on a case by case basis instead of making generalized assumptions.

I am terribly sorry to the families who have lost their children, I just couldn't even imagine, and hope I never have to. My sincere condolences go out to each one of them. I am also not in any way excusing TJ's actions. It was a senseless heinous act, and he deserves to be punished. I just ask that maybe a second be given to the thought that this could be any one of our children...and I imagine views would change if it were.

This post has me finding myself very passionate, and therefore, I am signing off this thread for the night. I apologize if there is a lack of response to you.

I agree he is a messed up kid. I didn't mean to make general assumptions either way! We do not know what happened to TJ and as I stated numerous times, I will wait for a doctor's report and evidence. I do not believe he can be cured after what we now know what he was capable of doing.

Many of here have been abused, much worse and some for far longer. We have emotions on both sides because of that. Some of us that have been abused can't understand how anyone could do this, some of us think it has to do with being abused or not having parents around. We do not know..that is for sure.

I apologize if I came across wrong. I just really feel for these victims and can't see beyond that right now. I heard the mother and father of Danny today and it broke my heart. They were wearing his clothes in honor of their dead son. It's just so sad...

I am sorry your father treated you the way he did. Our circumstances are similar and yes, it is a tough road.

 

[Spice]

Do you think that anything that happened in his life before the age of 5 could have helped to shape him into the person he is? Trauma inflicted upon someone does not just poof! disappear once they are living with grandparents. I would imagine he struggled with emotional issues his entire life and with the confusion and sense of finding one's self that comes at this age...there was a sense of overwhelming hoplessness.

I agree wholeheartedly mrsu. What happens or does not happen to us between birth and 5 years old has tremendous effect on us. We are developing attachments and I have to wonder what was going on for TJ at that time in his development. Attachment disorders can lead to much darker things later down the road, much darker things.

My father was also alive and absent from my life and it is something that never quite heals in you and presents many emotional obstacles in life, some of us come out of it stronger and others don't fare as well.

Thank you for an awesome post and thank you for sharing.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I think I read that it was when TJ was around 7 the parents divorced and went through troubles before that and lived with his grandparents. I'm not excusing anything he has done at all, it's just something to look at. How a monster is made or why they crack and can do such a horrible thing to living loving young people, his peers. It's disturbing.

jmo

 

[Nore]

That's the outcome one would hope for. However, I see an insanity defense. Mitigating circumstances being extreme violence exposure in the home. He didn't stand a chance, etc. Not saying it will fly, but it could.

I felt terribly for the grandfather who looked really shaken when he came into the court room. The grandmother was comforting him, rubbing his back. How horrible this must be for them. Does anyone know if these grandparents are paternal or maternal ?

----------------------------
I remember the case a while back where the guy was sniping people off I 71.. they tried for the insanity plea, didnt float. This man acted one brick short of a load. They were smacked down on it. Ohio is VERY hard to prove insanity.If I remember right the man got life. :seeya:

P.S. grandparents are maternal.

 

[snowdaze]

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/232936/396/Teen-in-Chardon-shootings-had-prior-run-in-with-police

You know you have to wonder how much of his fathers violence he actually was witness to
Add to it his uncle and brother...