GUILTY OK - Christopher Lane, 22, Australian, slain in thrill killing, Duncan, 16 Aug 2013

[Jersey*Girl]

I think the role models might be the key. If none is provided a child will pick one and it is usually the one with the appearance of the most power. Right or wrong. jmo

Definitely words to live by, LambChop.

It's important to note that sometimes parents can be stellar role models and their children turn out to be criminals, but in this situation I just keep catching myself saying wow. :notgood: :hoppingmad: :burn:

 

[Sonya610]

I think the role models might be the key. If none is provided a child will pick one and it is usually the one with the appearance of the most power. Right or wrong. jmo

It is a small part of it. Fact is there are millions of kids that are raised by single moms without strong male role models. Most do not become criminally minded sociopaths, statistically some have a very high, actually extremely high, likelihood of choosing that path, and statistically it is NOT random.

 

[Cappuccino]

Kids get to an age where they don't want their parents as role models, and that's a natural thing. They start looking to their peer group instead to find out what's done and what isn't, what's in and what's out.

I'm getting some idea of what kind of peer group these three were looking to as I catch up on this thread...

 

[LambChop]

Definitely words to live by, LambChop.

It's important to note that sometimes parents can be stellar role models and their children turn out to be criminals, but in this situation I just keep catching myself saying wow. :notgood: :hoppingmad: :burn:

Sometimes it's just a book a child reads about a person who excelled but who the child identified with because of that person's childhood. We do not know who a child will admire regardless of how many positive figures they may have in their life. One bad apple but to the child they are Robin Hood. jmo

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Bessie, sorry I quoted too much. Thanks for the mod. Article had so much pertinent info in it I lost my mind for a sec.

 

[LambChop]

It is a small part of it. Fact is there are millions of kids that are raised by single mom's without strong male role models. Most do not become criminally minded sociopaths, statistically some have a very high, actually extremely high, likelihood of choosing that path, and statistically it is NOT random.

Single or married, strong mothers set their child's boundaries and the child pretty much stays within them or face Mom. There are some very strong Mom's out there who have had their timbers tested and they have prevailed. Bless them. It is a hard world today for a single working Mom to raise a child and know where they are at all times. And yet most of them manage to do that with only minor problems. jmo

 

[Sonya610]

Kids get to an age where they don't want their parents as role models, and that's a natural thing. They start looking to their peer group instead to find out what's done and what isn't, what's in and what's out.

I'm getting some idea of what kind of peer group these three were looking to as I catch up on this thread...

Yeah they may get wrapped up in their peer group but if they have strong role models they know the difference between right and wrong....if only in the sense that they know so and so will kick their butt if they go outside of the hard boundaries, they won't be defended they will be fed to the proverbial wolves if they cross certain lines.

Don't steal and don't attack others....those are usually the basics. Robbery, murder in cold blood, don't go on a thrill kill rampage with your "friends"....those boundaries usually do not have to be explicitly stated.

 

[Karmady]

We is a misconception because most of America did not watch this trial on a daily basis. We all followed it closely on WS because that is what we do. Most people do not have a lot of knowledge about the events other than it's just another trial being followed on TV where a woman killed someone. Plus there are a lot of people who do not follow NG, JVM, etc. It is not that people are not interested it's just that they do not let it control their lives. jmo

I was using an example and generalizing. The point was that far MORE people know about Jodi Arias, or Jon Benet Ramsey or Casey Anthony precisely because they aren't your run-of-the-mill cases and the outcome is not clear cut. And that doesn't just go for WS. Look at all the people who turned out at the courthouse for the Arias verdict. How often do you see that? Her case was televised start to finish. Clear cut cases of homicide like Shorty's and the 99 year old lady from Poughkeepsie won't get a televised trial. There probably won't even BE a trial. Just a plea bargain. There are dozens if not more cases everyday all over the US just like theirs, though, and we don't pay attention to them because our attention is not called to them in any significant way. Just a blip on our radar. And if you count the ones who are "just" beaten and robbed, there are whole a lot more.

Its the run-of-the-mill low-profile cases that are the real problem in this country because they are random and very, very common, imo. You can't do much to protect yourself from them. jmo

 

[Karmady]

Single or married, strong mothers set their child's boundaries and the child pretty much stays within them or face Mom. There are some very strong Mom's out there who have had their timbers tested and they have prevailed. Bless them. It is a hard world today for a single working Mom to raise a child and know where they are at all times. And yet most of them manage to do that with only minor problems. jmo

Actually, I've found some ways in which it is much easier. Until now, you couldn't tell your child to take a picture of his or herself standing in the living room of your house (or wherever they claim to be) with a time stamp and to send it to you RIGHT NOW!! Not that I've ever done that, of course

You can also GPS their phones. You can also insist that they answer them immediately and take them away if they don't. You can also monitor their social media with our without their knowledge. You can drug test them with a cheap kit from CVS.

When I was a kid there was none of that I'd just be gone all day or night with no way to reach me and no way to know where I was. And unless I came home under the influence, no one would be the wiser. jmo

 

[stmarysmead]

I was using an example and generalizing. The point was that far MORE people know about Jodi Arias, or Jon Benet Ramsey or Casey Anthony precisely because they aren't your run-of-the-mill cases and the outcome is not clear cut. And that doesn't just go for WS. Look at all the people who turned out at the courthouse for the Arias verdict. How often do you see that? Her case was televised start to finish. Clear cut cases of homicide like Shorty's and the 99 year old lady from Poughkeepsie won't get a televised trial. There probably won't even BE a trial. Just a plea bargain. There are dozens if not more cases everyday all over the US just like theirs, though, and we don't pay attention to them because our attention is not called to them in any significant way. Just a blip on our radar. And if you count the ones who are "just" beaten and robbed, there are whole a lot more.

Its the run-of-the-mill low-profile cases that are the real problem in this country because they are random and very, very common, imo. You can't do much to protect yourself from them. jmo

These cases are avoided by the Media. They are never linked together to show a pattern or create a "teachable moment" for America. If another unarmed teenager had been killed in a MONTH by a Neighborhood Watch guy....the uproar,the linkage, the outrage onnightly programs,and on the floor ofCongress would be extreme.But two eldrrly folks beaten todeath in a week by Thugs...YAWN.

 

[T4Tide]

Actually, I've found some ways in which it is much easier. Until now, you couldn't tell your child to take a picture of his or herself standing in the living room of your house (or wherever they claim to be) with a time stamp and to send it to you RIGHT NOW!! Not that I've ever done that, of course

You can also GPS their phones. You can also insist that they answer them immediately and take them away if they don't. You can also monitor their social media with our without their knowledge. You can drug test them with a cheap kit from CVS.

When I was a kid there was none of that I'd just be gone all day or night with no way to reach me and no way to know where I was. And unless I came home under the influence, no one would be the wiser. jmo

I use Phone Sheriff. It's $80/year. Tells me all calls, texts, pics, visited websites, emails, and GPS coordinates by my son's phone. It emails them to me, and I set up personal text alerts. From my phone or desktop, I can disable his phone, or send an alarm to it that he cannot silence. I can also set daily time limits, or set the phone to disable at certain times. It's well worth it to keep track of your kid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sonya610]

These cases are avoided by the Media. They are never linked together to show a pattern or create a "teachable moment" for America. If another unarmed teenager had been killed in a MONTH by a Neighborhood Watch guy....the uproar,the linkage, the outrage onnightly programs,and on the floor ofCongress would be extreme.But two eldrrly folks beaten todeath in a week by Thugs...YAWN.

So very very true. Thank you for speaking the inconvenient truth St.Mary.

 

[Karmady]

I use Phone Sheriff. It's $80/year. Tells me all calls, texts, pics, visited websites, emails, and GPS coordinates by my son's phone. It emails them to me, and I set up personal text alerts. From my phone or desktop, I can disable his phone, or send an alarm to it that he cannot silence. I can also set daily time limits, or set the phone to disable at certain times. It's well worth it to keep track of your kid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for the tip. Mine aren't quite old enough to justify the full boat yet, but my dd will be shortly. I'm definitely going to use something like this.

I also forgot to mention facetime. We all have Iphones so I can speak to them and see them and their environment in real time. Right now, though, I just use it for stupid stuff like, if you want me to bring home a pizza for dinner, let's see the condition of your bedroom. I have dd walk me through the closet, under the bed, etc. It's a beautiful thing

 

[nao]

But many a child is born into a -criminal or violent or drug addicted or mental health problem, etc - one or maybe all of those things.
their neibours children are growing up in the same type of home, their parents associate with problematic people, this is their normal.
They have no idea what it would be like to to have a "parent" or a different lifestyle, they expect nothing from life, they expect to end up in jail or die young - Even if the parent wants a better life for their child, the child still has to survive and adapt in that enviroment.
And of course there are always a few who are a legend in their own mind.
Its basically a different culture, as alien to you as yours is to them. But it has always been that way, there is no point in pity, it just is what it is.

But when those 2 cultures cross it makes the news,- where as if it was another gangbanger that was killed, people would just say its to be expected,- and it is accepted as part of life by some kids/people. jmo moo

 

[writer7]

I'm trying to catch up on this awful case. I see we have Crips or Crips wannabes? Y'all let me know if I'm out of line any as I haven't caught up.

What may still be called Inner City Violence is a problem that has never gone away in the US. I'm not talking race here, at all, btw.

Forget race (think of 'chavs', etc in the UK and ROI if it helps do that).

The biggest problem with inner-city violence is that middle-class and rich folks can avoid the neighborhoods! If we have problems that are hurting a very poor, powerless, avoidable segment of society in the US, we'll not address it until it hurts middle-class or rich people. So it festers and grows for how long? OMG. Decades.

I'm trying to figure out whether the kids here were from this background or wannabes, though. They might be more like the Columbine shooters (well, poorer than that, certainly) than kids who only knew violence, etc. They may have just idealized/glamorized violence the same way. I loathe kids like that and gang kids both, but it's important to try to see what the real problem is in each case, imho.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I'm trying to catch up on this awful case. I see we have Crips or Crips wannabes? Y'all let me know if I'm out of line any as I haven't caught up.

What may still be called Inner City Violence is a problem that has never gone away in the US. I'm not talking race here, at all, btw.

Forget race (think of 'chavs', etc in the UK and ROI if it helps do that).

The biggest problem with inner-city violence is that middle-class and rich folks can avoid the neighborhoods! If we have problems that are hurting a very poor, powerless, avoidable segment of society in the US, we'll not address it until it hurts middle-class or rich people. So it festers and grows for how long? OMG. Decades.

I'm trying to figure out whether the kids here were from this background or wannabes, though. They might be more like the Columbine shooters (well, poorer than that, certainly) than kids who only knew violence, etc. They may have just idealized/glamorized violence the same way. I loathe kids like that and gang kids both, but it's important to try to see what the real problem is in each case, imho.

Ok, so I think you may have things a bit jumbled up because I'm sure you are not saying that middle-class and rich people avoidance are causing the issue with inner city crime, right?
What do you propose are the root causes?
IMHO, if we do not look at root causes with an analytical, critical-thinking process then nothing gets close to resolve.
ykwim?

 

[writer7]

Now this house on Country Club road is interesting. It was said to be a wealthy, safe part of town, and yet that's where these boys were when they saw Lane jogging?

The gun believed to have been used in the convenience store robberies was found when a search warrant was executed at a house on Country Club Road that helped lead to the arrest of three young men and a 17-year-old. They are in the Stephens County Jail on robbery charges.

That house on Country Club is the same one the teens were in when they saw Lane go jogging by and followed him in a car, with one teen allegedly shooting him in the back. Evans declined to say if that house had been searched in connection with the Aug. 16 shooting. - See more at: http://duncanbanner.com/local/x3153...-other-alleged-criminals#sthash.fvK9CNMF.dpuf

http://duncanbanner.com/local/x31531254/Some-teens-in-shooting-had-ties-to-other-alleged-criminals

I'm starting to think that these kids had a wider circle of friends than we may be assuming. Hanging out on "Country Club" road, eh?

 

[stmarysmead]

Now this house on Country Club road is interesting. It was said to be a wealthy, safe part of town, and yet that's where these boys were when they saw Lane jogging?



http://duncanbanner.com/local/x31531254/Some-teens-in-shooting-had-ties-to-other-alleged-criminals

I'm starting to think that these kids had a wider circle of friends than we may be assuming. Hanging out on "Country Club" road, eh?

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1702-N-Country-Club-Rd-Duncan-OK-73533/84321954_zpid/

Home for sale on Country Club Lane for $120,000. You can see houses with similar values around it.

 

[stmarysmead]

Now this house on Country Club road is interesting. It was said to be a wealthy, safe part of town, and yet that's where these boys were when they saw Lane jogging?



http://duncanbanner.com/local/x31531254/Some-teens-in-shooting-had-ties-to-other-alleged-criminals

I'm starting to think that these kids had a wider circle of friends than we may be assuming. Hanging out on "Country Club" road, eh?

Oh, I do mean that a huge part of the issue is that middle-class and rich people don't have to care. We all absolutely have to look for the root causes and address them objectively. The root causes are the original causes, of course, but the fact that the violence affects one segment of the population and not others meant that folks considered it someone else's problem. That has helped perpetuate it, no doubt.

Usually we are better at addressing problems affecting so many people. But depending on who those people are and how avoidable they are, we don't even bother. That's part of the problem, imho. A big part.

We have cities here that are more like Haiti or Jamaica in that you have the very rich living fine and guarded and the very, very poor getting more and more angry about things. I don't think being poor excuses violence or crime at all, but I hate the disparity in focus is all. Everyone should care about everyone in a society

There was a very controversial article about inner city Philadelphia a few months ago. The author had a son attending one of our finest Universities and therefore he was living in one of of our most dangerous neighborhoods. He spoke of his daily anxiety. There is no free pass for wealthier people.

Wealthy people cannot huddle in their homes. They often must work in the cities, commute on various kind of transit, or have their children attend colleges or rent their first apartments in such areas. A family member of mine (who is AA) ....was telling me that her sister and brother-in-law...who sacrofice to send their sons to parochial schools...were afraid to let one son have a playdate with a schoolfriend in another part of the city. You can work, and move, and send your kids to better schools...but the Nightmare still seeps into your lives.

We dont discuss these problems, because many do not want to admit their is a problem. We are forbidden to discuss it. The victims...if we were to keep a daily total...would astound us. The stories would break our hearts. We must find a way to confront this National Tragedy...but first we have to have everyone ADMIT the problem and stop pointing fingers. If the house is burning down, dont let us stand there in the flames...debating if it was your cigarette or my candle...DO SOMETHING!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Oh, I do mean that a huge part of the issue is that middle-class and rich people don't have to care. We all absolutely have to look for the root causes and address them objectively. The root causes are the original causes, of course, but the fact that the violence affects one segment of the population and not others meant that folks considered it someone else's problem. That has helped perpetuate it, no doubt.

Usually we are better at addressing problems affecting so many people. But depending on who those people are and how avoidable they are, we don't even bother. That's part of the problem, imho. A big part.

We have cities here that are more like Haiti or Jamaica in that you have the very rich living fine and guarded and the very, very poor getting more and more angry about things. I don't think being poor excuses violence or crime at all, but I hate the disparity in focus is all. Everyone should care about everyone in a society

So what I think you're saying is that wealth disparity is part of the cause of the violence in our society, correct?
If so, I would agree with you.
But what are the other causes?