OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michele Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977 #2

[Betty P]

Merci thanks for your valuable insight. I was just trying to explain, albeit in a different direction, where I saw something from an ethnological perspective.

Reading up on the old articles. I think some of that evidence analysis was based on a hair found at the scene, comparing it to GLH's. Back in those days, along with fingerprints and blood types, that was about all they had to work with.

The heavy rainstorms that night also washed away a lot of evidence and scent.

Correction, the first DNA test was done in 1989, and from those results they came up with an estimate of NA ancestry, as well as compatibility with Hart's DNA.

Here's a link to the October 1989 article

DNA Tests Link Gene Leroy Hart to Girl Scout Deaths

Genetic testing conducted by the FBI has linked Gene Leroy Hart to the notorious 1977 slayings of three Girl Scouts near Locust Grove, but cannot determine conclusively whether he was the killer, The…

www.oklahoman.com

The also did hair analysis.

 

[Richard]

The Prosecution's decision to exclude mention of previous convictions or alleged crimes is always something that is carefully considered. To mention a previous conviction, it has to have a direct bearing on the type of crime that the person is charged with in the current trial. For instance, the fact that a person had stolen something is not proof that a thief is a murderer - and if mention is made in court of his previous criminal record, it could be argued by the Defense that this mention has unfairly prejudiced the jury against the defendant, and would be grounds for a mistrial or a later appeal and reversal.

It is a narrow path for prosecutors to navigate. Appeals have been successful in some cases where information proving that a defendant in a murder trial was a previously convicted pedophile, but that pedophilia was NOT necessarily something that would lead to murder. And when convictions for crimes committed AFTER the current charge are introduced at trial, it can be grounds for appeal - on the argument that although he committed murder in 1999, it does not prove that he was a murderer earlier in 1996.

Sometimes a defendant is known to be a particularly evil person, but the prosecution has to stick to the facts which prove a specified crime, and cannot deviate by introducing other known criminal acts which are not charged in that trial. This can sometimes be done, however, if the defendant takes the stand and testifies in his own defense, and during the course of his testimony LIES about something. This would allow the prosecution to introduce information in REBUTTAL to the lie.

Normally, it is not until the sentencing phase of a trial - after the person has been found guilty on the merits of the case - that previous misconduct and convictions can be introduced.

In this particular case (although I do not know the actual thoughts of the Prosecution), the information about Hart's previous convictions of Abduction, Rape, attempted murder, and other specifics, such as where he took his two earlier victims, would seem (in my opinion) to be relevant to proving that he subsequently murdered the three little girls at the Scout Camp.

 

[Betty P]

The Prosecution's decision to exclude mention of previous convictions or alleged crimes is always something that is carefully considered. To mention a previous conviction, it has to have a direct bearing on the type of crime that the person is charged with in the current trial. For instance, the fact that a person had stolen something is not proof that a thief is a murderer - and if mention is made in court of his previous criminal record, it could be argued by the Defense that this mention has unfairly prejudiced the jury against the defendant, and would be grounds for a mistrial or a later appeal and reversal.

It is a narrow path for prosecutors to navigate. Appeals have been successful in some cases where information proving that a defendant in a murder trial was a previously convicted pedophile, but that pedophilia was NOT necessarily something that would lead to murder. And when convictions for crimes committed AFTER the current charge are introduced at trial, it can be grounds for appeal - on the argument that although he committed murder in 1999, it does not prove that he was a murderer earlier in 1996.

Sometimes a defendant is known to be a particularly evil person, but the prosecution has to stick to the facts which prove a specified crime, and cannot deviate by introducing other known criminal acts which are not charged in that trial. This can sometimes be done, however, if the defendant takes the stand and testifies in his own defense, and during the course of his testimony LIES about something. This would allow the prosecution to introduce information in REBUTTAL to the lie.

Normally, it is not until the sentencing phase of a trial - after the person has been found guilty on the merits of the case - that previous misconduct and convictions can be introduced.

In this particular case (although I do not know the actual thoughts of the Prosecution), the information about Hart's previous convictions of Abduction, Rape, attempted murder, and other specifics, such as where he took his two earlier victims, would seem (in my opinion) to be relevant to proving that he subsequently murdered the three little girls at the Scout Camp.

Good post, Richard. Actually, it was the judge who made the decision to not allow evidence of Hart's prior crimes. Garvin Isaacs was the lead defense attorney and he put on quite a strong and flamboyant defense. The information is out there in a book written about the murders "Someone Cry for the Children".

Hart's defense attorney also "let slip" during the trial that Hart would still be serving a sentence of 305 years for his prior offenses of burglary, kidnapping and rape and escaping jail. Some jurors later said they thought Hart was guilty, but bowed to pressure from the local NA community knowing that Hart would still be in prison for the rest of his life for his previous crimes.

Here's another recent article with some information about the trial as well as a lot of photos

A look back at the Tulsa World, Tribune archives during Girl Scout murder case

The Tulsa World spent a year producing a six-part narrative on what remains perhaps the state's most infamous cold case: the unsolved murders of three girls - Lori Farmer, Denise

www.wfmz.com

Some NYT coverage of the trial (you might be able to view the NYT for free via your local library's digital collection)

The New York Times: Sunday June 4, 1978

The complete edition of the New York Times published on Sunday June 4, 1978.

timesmachine.nytimes.com

The New York Times: Saturday June 17, 1978

The complete edition of the New York Times published on Saturday June 17, 1978.

timesmachine.nytimes.com

Hart dies of a massive heart attack 3 months after his acquittal while serving his sentence in prison

The New York Times: Tuesday June 5, 1979

The complete edition of the New York Times published on Tuesday June 5, 1979.

timesmachine.nytimes.com

 

[MissLaura]

Tulsa World Newsroom podcast with Tim Stanley from this week: Questions still remain about the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders 45 years later - Tulsa World Newsroom - Omny.fm

These new results were first obtained back in 2019 by Sheriff Reed and shared with the families. They got several partial DNA profiles which matched Gene Hart and from which they were able to exclude other suspects that hadn't been previously excluded. There is a four-part documentary series scheduled come out towards the end of May that will be streamed on Hulu and this new evidence is included in it.

 

[Sincerely]

I just saw this run across my social media screen. I hope it’s acceptable to post this from this entertainment site. This is from May 16, 2022.

In an ABC News for Hulu docuseries, Kristin Chenoweth seeks answers after nearly going on a camping trip with a group of girls, whose murders remain unsolved.​

Kristin Chenoweth Reveals Connection to The Unsolved Girl Scout Murders - E! Online

In an ABC News for Hulu docuseries, Kristin Chenoweth seeks answers after nearly going on a camping trip with a group of girls, whose murders remain unsolved.

www.eonline.com

 

[Hobgoblinmarket]

"When Hart was caught, he confessed to kidnapping, raping, and sodomizing the two pregnant women and was sentenced to three 10-year prison terms to be served concurrently."

this should be an automatic LWOP at the very least. How many lives could have been saved/be saved if sexual violence against women and children were taken seriously? A rapist is not going to reform into a good person.

 

[Betty P]

"When Hart was caught, he confessed to kidnapping, raping, and sodomizing the two pregnant women and was sentenced to three 10-year prison terms to be served concurrently."

this should be an automatic LWOP at the very least. How many lives could have been saved/be saved if sexual violence against women and children were taken seriously? A rapist is not going to reform into a good person.

Times were different back in the early 60's. Thanks to the women's movement, these sentences became much more strict. The other problem with Hart, though, was his ability to escape from jail and stay hidden and protected for years at a time. At the time of the Girl Scout murders, he had been a jail escapee for nearly 4 years. He was hidden and protected by extended family and friends who lived in the Locust Grove area. Occasionally, he would burglarize local homes (non-family) to steal food, supplies, booze, etc. but police could never find him. He lived in a series of caves in the area around the camp, as well as a cellar of an old house.

 

[formerlyme]

I was brought here inquiring more about the Hulu advertisement I saw. I can relate to the innocence of camp and pranks . In 1979 I went to summer camp in the mountains, in the dark we would walk to the outhouse alone. Counselors had friends that would prank making noises at night, and one night a bunch of motorcycles drove through engines roaring and lights ablaze. It was all pranks I (hope) am sure. It was a much more innocent time then, our counselor did not sleep in our cabin and we were surprisingly on our own a lot in the cabin area. I think this was also the time that all those camp movies were coming out in theaters, mischief makers at summer camp. meatballs, little darlings etc. Of course GS leaders were mostly adults and mothers, my counselors were teens. But it was a different time.

 

[Betty P]

I was brought here inquiring more about the Hulu advertisement I saw. I can relate to the innocence of camp and pranks . In 1979 I went to summer camp in the mountains, in the dark we would walk to the outhouse alone. Counselors had friends that would prank making noises at night, and one night a bunch of motorcycles drove through engines roaring and lights ablaze. It was all pranks I (hope) am sure. It was a much more innocent time then, our counselor did not sleep in our cabin and we were surprisingly on our own a lot in the cabin area. I think this was also the time that all those camp movies were coming out in theaters, mischief makers at summer camp. meatballs, little darlings etc. Of course GS leaders were mostly adults and mothers, my counselors were teens. But it was a different time.

In the book "Someone Cry for the Children" and in a few news articles, the camp counselors said the first night of camp is always noisy (the murders occurred on the first night). They were used to hearing some screams, yelling, etc. as many of the girls would stay up as late as midnight or longer.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Oklahoma Girl Scout Cold Case Murders Hit Close to Home for Kristin Chenoweth

A childhood memory haunts actress and singer Kristin Chenoweth: the brutal 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts while they were camping.

www.insideedition.com

 

[dotr]

June 1 2022

''A childhood memory haunts actress and singer Kristin Chenoweth: the brutal 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts while they were camping. It happened not far from where she grew up in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. Chenoweth investigates the murders in a new Hulu documentary, “Keeper of the Ashes.” She also makes a stunning admission: she was supposed to be on that camping trip. “This is a story I wish I didn't have to tell,” she said. “It haunts me every day.”

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Counselor who found slain Girl Scouts has spent a lifetime overcoming trauma

“I think overall I’ve had a very ordinary life," Sand Springs native Carla Wilhite says. "I have driven myself to live a good life despite what happened” 45 years ago

tulsaworld.com

 

[IzzyBlanche]

45 years ago today.

Rest in peace, sweet girls. You have never been forgotten.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

I just finished watching Keeper of the Ashes & think I will watch it again as I always tend to miss something with the first viewing. Such a sad story but the documentary is very good with a lot of information.Those poor girls and their parents, and the camp counselor who discovered the bodies still dealing with guilt after all these years…..absolutely horrific to think about.

 

[wendybtn]

I remember their faces from the pictures in the Tulsa newspaper at the time. So horrible and sad.

 

[dotr]

 

[cenazoic]

I remain convinced this show woulda been 10x better without Kristin Chenoweth’s ‘traumatic reflections’ about something that didn’t happen to her, about people she clearly didn’t really know.

I concede it was her influence that got it made, but her bits came across as self-involved and tasteless to me. Still, a net positive, I suppose.

 

[Betty P]

I remain convinced this show woulda been 10x better without Kristin Chenoweth’s ‘traumatic reflections’ about something that didn’t happen to her, about people she clearly didn’t really know.

I concede it was her influence that got it made, but her bits came across as self-involved and tasteless to me. Still, a net positive, I suppose.

I might watch it just for the interviews and some of the old news footage. Looks like there's some footage I hadn't seen before.

So far, its not bad. I like the interviews with the parents, the reporters who covered it, etc. Those are important and very informative. Lol at home movies of the Girl Scouts swimming in the pool, back when everyone had to wear swimming caps.

 

[Betty P]

DBM

 

[Betty P]

I felt so bad for the news photographer who was asked by the Sheriff to take photos of the crime scene. They knew him, he was a professional photographer and I guess they couldn't get a crime scene photographer out there for a while. His are the photos we've seen many times of the shoeprints, tent, the girls in the sleeping bags, glasses, flashlight, rope, etc. He began crying just remembering it. He said it was very bad inside that tent. A lot of blood. Very disturbing.