OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[adeedra]

I've made some screens of location from documents on youtube (I'm not sure but probably it's "State Line" and "Girl Scout Murders KJRH 1990 Webber Recap")

This is how that area looks like - lighter pictures are older):

Camp Scott gates, road & remains, and letter from Doris to her mother, written hours before she was killed.
She was very excited to go and earn money to go there by selling cookies, but her best friend end up grounded, so Doris didn't want to go/stay there.

Some tent in Camp Scott:

Does anybody know what's on that picture (left)? It doesn't seem like a Kiowa unit, but maybe it is and I just don't see that

 

[missgulfsouth]

Do you all have children?

Doris' letter breaks my heart. Seeing the pictures of the camp as it was, the tents, the Camp Scott sign ... it all just makes me so angry. Somebody (probably plural) watched, stalked, planned and waited to destroy these little girls, but after Hart was acquitted, it's almost as though everyone turned a collective blind eye to it. How does life just "go on" after something so horrific? And how do those who know the truth but chose to remain silent even live with themselves?

 

[huxley72]

Good story on the Farmer family 40 years after the murders. One thing that struck me odd was the fact that a statement was made about raising money to do more extensive DNA testing from the Sheriff of Mayes County. What in the world are they talking about raising money, good god Oklahoma pay the money to find out who did this.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/40-years-later-the-girl-scout-murders

 

[HoneyWest]

Good story on the Farmer family 40 years after the murders. One thing that struck me odd was the fact that a statement was made about raising money to do more extensive DNA testing from the Sheriff of Mayes County. What in the world are they talking about raising money, good god Oklahoma pay the money to find out who did this.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/40-years-later-the-girl-scout-murders

I sure hope something conclusive comes out of this new DNA test. I had thought they used up all the samples during the last test, so this is really good news.

 

[Betty P]

I've made some screens of location from documents on youtube (I'm not sure but probably it's "State Line" and "Girl Scout Murders KJRH 1990 Webber Recap")

This is how that area looks like - lighter pictures are older):

Camp Scott gates, road & remains, and letter from Doris to her mother, written hours before she was killed.
She was very excited to go and earn money to go there by selling cookies, but her best friend end up grounded, so Doris didn't want to go/stay there.

Some tent in Camp Scott:

Does anybody know what's on that picture (left)? It doesn't seem like a Kiowa unit, but maybe it is and I just don't see that

Thanks for your work! The tent behind the campfire ring is Tent #7, the victims tent. Same with the one where investigators are standing outside and with cots on the ground in front. They had to remove the cots in order to cut out a section of the tent platform floor where there were footprints of the killer/s.

By the picture on the left, are you referring to the aerial photo? If so, that's probably news footage from the time of the murders and it's likely Kiowa unit. It looks differently from the drawings as there are quite a few trees around. The other photos w/ bare trees must have been taken during fall or winter. The open fields are likely the area south and/or west of Camp Scott. Beyond the fields to the south is Spring Creek, woods and the cave & old cellar where dogs tracked a scent from the camp and where some of the evidence was found, along with old camp fire, clothing, empty food cans, newspaper matching that found in the crime scene flashlight, etc.

 

[MOTORUNNER]

This case haunts me, It's like the most terrifying horror story come true. I'll have to ask my mother if she recalls this, she lived in Yukon at the time.

 

[Betty P]

Good story on the Farmer family 40 years after the murders. One thing that struck me odd was the fact that a statement was made about raising money to do more extensive DNA testing from the Sheriff of Mayes County. What in the world are they talking about raising money, good god Oklahoma pay the money to find out who did this.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/40-years-later-the-girl-scout-murders

Interesting quote from Lori's father, who is a physician

When DNA testing became available years later, authorities re-tested the evidence. The DNA test results pointed to Hart but were considered inconclusive. After years of experience in the field of medicine, and studying the case closely, Dr. Farmer said he is sure Hart was the culprit.

"It's not absolutely 100 percent because they were dealing with fragments of DNA," Dr. Farmer stated. "But when you look at it from an overall perspective the evidence is quite overwhelming. My only question is was he the only one? The things that were done that night, it's hard to believe that one person could do that."

I'd have to go back and check news stories from around 2007 or so. Didn't the sample for one of the DNA tests come from an item of Lori's that had been returned to the family and kept by them? Good thing Lori's dad is a physician. His skills have been very helpful in this case. Much sympathy to all the victims families who've had to deal with so much over the years.

 

[Ven]

Thanks for posting the pictures, adeedra.

And G Hart most definitely deserves to still be considered a suspect in this case. But if he did it, who was in his group? Because I'm firmly of the belief that multiple people committed these murders. There were the two shoeprints, witnesses described seeing at least two men, one of the victims was strangled while two others were bludgeoned with two different objects. Not to mention the sheer nature of the crimes.

 

[Ambitioned]

As for GLH, he should still be considered a suspect. He was captured wearing the glasses of one of the GS counselors many miles away from the camp. His DNA, while not a perfect match to the crime scene evidence, was still significant, with only 1 in 7700 other NA men likely to match the profile.

But let's check with the mods to see about discussing those other cases and possible suspects.

Oh I believe he was part of it. I just don't think he acted alone. The guy had a partially successful vasectomy. I can see him raping and doing the crime since he did rape before even though it's a different victimology. I just can't see him leaving fluid in all three girls though (for lack of a better description.) I suppose it's possible though.

As adeedra pointed out the DNA wasn't an exact match. I agree with her that he was one of the attackers or got framed. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go with the "Hart of Gene country" people. The man raped pregnant women and as someone who was almost raped, I find him despicable and abhorrent and disgusting.

But its definitely worth looking at some of the young men in his extended family and community.

Definitely!

Thank you adeedra for the pictures.

Do you all have children?​

Yes and no. My sister died so I am raising her son. I make sure he knows who his biological mom is. At the same time he calls me mom.

Doris' letter breaks my heart. Seeing the pictures of the camp as it was, the tents, the Camp Scott sign ... it all just makes me so angry. Somebody (probably plural) watched, stalked, planned and waited to destroy these little girls, but after Hart was acquitted, it's almost as though everyone turned a collective blind eye to it. How does life just "go on" after something so horrific? And how do those who know the truth but chose to remain silent even live with themselves?

It's very heartbreaking. It's bad enough when an adult is murdered but when a child is, it reaches the deepest part of our souls. We weep for these girls, Polly Klass, Danielle van Dam, Jacob Wetterling, James Bulger, Jonbenet Ramsey, and thousands more. My signature is from James Kolar and I think it's a good quote.


​

 

[missgulfsouth]

I have 5 children ages 21 down to 8, my youngest is Lori Farmer's age. He is so chatty and curious and precocious and trusting and sweet ... just a baby to me. The location and situation of that tent is so unthinkable to me in 2017. I've been a mom for 21 years and it's been my full time job to be vigilant, protective, always wary, always mindful of the kind of people who lurk and wait for opportunities. Keeping kids alive through their childhood is hard work ... being cautious and teaching them about all sorts of dangers, trying to prevent accidents. To go through all of that only to send them off to camp to be slaughtered? We live in a different world now, meaning, we KNOW more about the dangers to kids. But it always existed. A very scary thing happened to a cousin and I in the mid 80's, I think we came close to being murdered by a stranger who had been watching us in the woods. My aunt got a letter in the mail from this person, talking about us, warning us what happens to little girls by themselves. So I know 1977 wasn't the dark ages. Rapes, kidnapping, child abduction and murder happened back then... even in the 50's. What I'm getting at is, why did they assume they would always be safe? Why not have counselors in every tent? Why wasn't it alarming for strange men to be spotted in the camp? No one should have been able to get inside, ever. It's so stupid to me that many things weren't taken seriously. Who cares if the note turned out (years later) to be a prank? They didn't know that at the time. And 3 girls WERE murdered. Such a senseless, preventable crime. Kids are irreplaceable. That's all.

 

[MaryG12]

Do you all have children?

Doris' letter breaks my heart. Seeing the pictures of the camp as it was, the tents, the Camp Scott sign ... it all just makes me so angry. Somebody (probably plural) watched, stalked, planned and waited to destroy these little girls, but after Hart was acquitted, it's almost as though everyone turned a collective blind eye to it. How does life just "go on" after something so horrific? And how do those who know the truth but chose to remain silent even live with themselves?

I don't have any children myself.

In response to your last question:

Maybe, in order to hide.

Or worse, maybe because they wee threatened to be quiet about committing these murders.

I really don't know.

I have been trying to find information about that time period on the Magic Empire Council, of which there is very little online. Even on Newspapers.com.

The problem being, I was 9.5 years old when this happened and cannot for the life of me recall if GS-USA had a transparency policy of any kind.

 

[Ambitioned]

I have 5 children ages 21 down to 8, my youngest is Lori Farmer's age. He is so chatty and curious and precocious and trusting and sweet ... just a baby to me. The location and situation of that tent is so unthinkable to me in 2017. I've been a mom for 21 years and it's been my full time job to be vigilant, protective, always wary, always mindful of the kind of people who lurk and wait for opportunities. Keeping kids alive through their childhood is hard work ... being cautious and teaching them about all sorts of dangers, trying to prevent accidents. To go through all of that only to send them off to camp to be slaughtered? We live in a different world now, meaning, we KNOW more about the dangers to kids. But it always existed. A very scary thing happened to a cousin and I in the mid 80's, I think we came close to being murdered by a stranger who had been watching us in the woods. My aunt got a letter in the mail from this person, talking about us, warning us what happens to little girls by themselves. So I know 1977 wasn't the dark ages. Rapes, kidnapping, child abduction and murder happened back then... even in the 50's. What I'm getting at is why did they assume they would always be safe, and not have counselors in every tent? And men spotted in the camp wasn't alarming? It's just stupid to me that things weren't taken seriously. Such a senseless, preventable crime. Kids are irreplaceable.

Too trusting I guess. Parents want to put their children on a girl scout bus and not think about dangers. Girl Scouts for heavens sake. One of the oldest American institutions. It's not a bad trait to have but when it comes to children we can't be too trusting, not in today's world. My mom raised the six of us. We could play outside alone after dark. Not so today. I see the term 'helicopter parent' tossed around like an insult. But with all the crimes and cybercrimes, why not? I think it should be worn like a badge of honor. At least these parents are proactive for their child's safety. So glad nothing happened to you and your cousin. Like your sig says, monsters are real. They just look like people.

 

[MaryG12]

I have 5 children ages 21 down to 8, my youngest is Lori Farmer's age. He is so chatty and curious and precocious and trusting and sweet ... just a baby to me. The location and situation of that tent is so unthinkable to me in 2017. I've been a mom for 21 years and it's been my full time job to be vigilant, protective, always wary, always mindful of the kind of people who lurk and wait for opportunities. Keeping kids alive through their childhood is hard work ... being cautious and teaching them about all sorts of dangers, trying to prevent accidents. To go through all of that only to send them off to camp to be slaughtered? We live in a different world now, meaning, we KNOW more about the dangers to kids. But it always existed. A very scary thing happened to a cousin and I in the mid 80's, I think we came close to being murdered by a stranger who had been watching us in the woods. My aunt got a letter in the mail from this person, talking about us, warning us what happens to little girls by themselves. So I know 1977 wasn't the dark ages. Rapes, kidnapping, child abduction and murder happened back then... even in the 50's. What I'm getting at is, why did they assume they would always be safe? Why not have counselors in every tent? Why wasn't it alarming for strange men to be spotted in the camp? No one should have been able to get inside, ever. It's so stupid to me that many things weren't taken seriously. Who cares if the note turned out (years later) to be a prank? They didn't know that at the time. And 3 girls WERE murdered. Such a senseless, preventable crime. Kids are irreplaceable. That's all.

Sounds like you are close to me in age. That frightening incident that happened to you and your cousin - camping trip? Or near your home? Did your aunt go to police with the letter?

It is true that crimes of that nature back in 1977 (I will be 50 later on this year and I do not consider myself old at all) is not much different than the same of today. All that has really changed is the type of media and how fast electronic news, ie, Internet, can travel compared to that old-fashioned printing press and print newspaper. I have a Newspapers.com subscription, it is not uncommon to read about crimes, abductions, missing persons, etc.

 

[MaryG12]

Too trusting I guess. Parents want to put their children on a girl scout bus and not think about dangers. Girl Scouts for heavens sake. One of the oldest American institutions. It's not a bad trait to have but when it comes to children we can't be too trusting, not in today's world. My mom raised the six of us. We could play outside alone after dark. Not so today. I see the term 'helicopter parent' tossed around like an insult. But with all the crimes and cybercrimes, why not? I think it should be worn like a badge of honor. At least these parents are proactive for their child's safety. So glad nothing happened to you and your cousin. Like your sig says, monsters are real. They just look like people.

Just a comment to make here:

You know, one hears about stories about the Boy Scouts, sexual abuse and what not in the news, then you might hear about the Girl Scouts at the same time, and think, something like that could never happen, especially a murder, of three little girls back in 1977.

Something like this is called a double-standard (yes, even in scouting) but MOO, the same thing could very well happen in Girl Scouting. Maybe the probability of such incidents is not as high as in Boy Scouts but I do consider the possibility of it existing in the Girl Scouts.

 

[huxley72]

Still wondering why the bodies were placed like they were? Makes no sense. I mean the killer had no idea of what the daily routine would be right? It was the first night, thats why I wonder if it were a former employee someone who knew the routines. I mean wouldn't leaving the bodies in the tent to be discovered later allow more time to escape? How could Hart or anyone leave so little evidence while committing a triple murder in almost pitch black. Also go around into tents stealing things killing three and moving them by the counselors tents to the trail makes me wonder if it was a mental institution escapee. One hair similiar to Hart, DNA that matches native american which I think 90 percent of Cherokee county had Indian Blood. One fingerprint that hasn't been matched and two shoe prints that are not Harts size. There had to be more evidence.

 

[huxley72]

I've made some screens of location from documents on youtube (I'm not sure but probably it's "State Line" and "Girl Scout Murders KJRH 1990 Webber Recap")

This is how that area looks like - lighter pictures are older):

Camp Scott gates, road & remains, and letter from Doris to her mother, written hours before she was killed.
She was very excited to go and earn money to go there by selling cookies, but her best friend end up grounded, so Doris didn't want to go/stay there.

Some tent in Camp Scott:

Does anybody know what's on that picture (left)? It doesn't seem like a Kiowa unit, but maybe it is and I just don't see that

Thanks for this post the photos of the tent look like it could be todays time. 40 years is a long time but in the concept of time just a flicker.

 

[Ambitioned]

I have been trying to find information about that time period on the Magic Empire Council, of which there is very little online. Even on Newspapers.com.

Puzzling isn't it? I read this:

Still angry:[FONT=&amp] Sherri Farmer, who organized the first Oklahoma chapter of Parents of Murdered Children, is still angry and bitter with the Girl Scouts.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]She said officials there always treated her as an adversary rather than as a parent who had lost a child.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"It would have meant a great deal to us if they had treated us just like a mom and dad," she said. "They did absolutely nothing to be comforting to us.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Desperate to get any information about her daughter's last hours, Farmer recalls trying to find out what Lori had for dinner, but the organization would not tell her.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Karen Morgan, executive director of Tulsa's Magic Empire Council, concedes the organization is concerned about its image.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"We definitely protect the image of a good organization," Morgan said. "The reason we're concerned is because we know that we have the best program for girls available in the world today."[/FONT]

That image thing. :maddening:

Shadow of Doubt

 

[MaryG12]

Ambitioned:


WOW.


Thank you for that article link - in reading that quoted piece from the article - it's like that GS Council was treating the murders like a military casualty. I apologize if it sounds so blunt but that is the first thing that comes to mind. Scary huh. Poor Lori, Michelle and Doris. And their poor families. What really shocked and saddened me was the following:


"Bettye Milner, Denise's mother, said the grief of the past 25 years was often so great, that at times, she imagined that her daughter never existed."

 

[missgulfsouth]

Sounds like you are close to me in age. That frightening incident that happened to you and your cousin - camping trip? Or near your home? Did your aunt go to police with the letter?

It is true that crimes of that nature back in 1977 (I will be 50 later on this year and I do not consider myself old at all) is not much different than the same of today. All that has really changed is the type of media and how fast electronic news, ie, Internet, can travel compared to that old-fashioned printing press and print newspaper. I have a Newspapers.com subscription, it is not uncommon to read about crimes, abductions, missing persons, etc.

I'm 42. I don't recall if my aunt took the letter to the police, I was 10 and my cousin was 11. I just remember my mom getting a phone call, getting very upset, my aunt came over and they read the letter together, and then my other aunts came over, everyone was very upset. I didn't see the letter, but it was read to me and to my cousin, it terrified us both.

I used to spend the night with my cousin quite often in the summer. She lived way out in the country, so we would mess around outside a lot. We'd go out into farm fields and tease the bull ... then run for our lives! We'd walk a few miles up to the store. We'd play in her treehouse in the woods, catch frogs in her big pond, or go to see the horses. We also liked to take a trail up a big hill into the woods ... hike over to I-75 (Northern Michigan), cross the expressway (yep, we were insane), go to the rest area (also insane), and then cross the field and more hills to visit her Aunt Em. One day when we were hiking in those woods, we heard something and got spooked, but we kept going all the way to visit her Aunt Em.

The letter was mailed to my Aunt Sherry, telling her about our walk up the hill, into the woods. It included a newspaper clipping of a kidnapped and murdered child and warned her what would happen to us. We never went back into the woods after that. My aunt never found out who sent the letter, she and I talked about it last summer. It still frightens our family.

 

[Betty P]

When my kids were toddlers, we moved into a house just around the corner from where a famous unsolved kidnapping/murder took place. Just a few months before. It's still unsolved. My guys were little then and I had no worries that I couldn't protect them. As they got a little older, I explained "stranger danger", etc. Because of the kidnapping, local LE and schools were hyper-vigilant about watching out and educating kids about safety.

My approach was to teach them what they needed to know to be safe, but not dwell on it. I didn't want them to grow up being afraid of everything. Got to know all the people in the neighborhood and all the parents of kids. We all raised our kids cooperatively, keeping an eye out on all of them when they were outside, but not in a way they were aware of. Watched as they walked to visit each other's houses, called before they left. It was a team effort that worked well without scaring the kids - that was important to us. Later, when they were old enough to play outside by themselves for a while, we got a good Sheltie, who herded and guarded them. When on scout camping trips, either their dad or a neighbor were usually with them. Probably after some of these incidents, the scout groups encouraged more parent volunteers to come along and be involved. I recall my guys being on those camping trips, in the storms, one falling out of his tent in the middle of the storm. They came home absolutely filthy. Guys. They loved not being clean for a whole week.

I worried more when they started driving, then went away to college. Did not enjoy having them at age 18 or 19 living 2 or 3 states away. Looking back on my college years in the 70's, it's scary. We were pretty innocent, but there were a lot of creeps trolling around uni campuses back then. Bundy was on the prowl. If I had a daughter I would have been very worried sending her away to college.

Glad people are more aware and safer now with kids, but sad it took too many incidents like this to make it happen.