OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[SchoolgirlShamus]

If we were talking about an adult and a child, it would make sense to find the remains together and consider lost/succumbing to the elements. If the adult passed, I don't believe a child (especially a 6 yo) would wander from the parent. But 2 adults? I can't imagine that one wouldn't leave to continue searching for help, no matter if 1 or 2 of the other people passed.

The problem with hypothermia is that it advances by gradual degrees (slowly eroding cognitive function, as well) before people realize they're in any real danger, especially with sweating and paradoxical sensations of warmth.

They could have huddled together at nightfall with one adult intending to go for help at first light, but all perished that night as inactivity and contact with the chilly ground, combined with the cold/wind/moisture of the weather, slowly continued lowering their body heat.

This page has great info:

http://www.redrockadventure.com/fishing/ice_fishing/hypothermia.htm

 

[poppygirl]

The problem with hypothermia is that it advances by gradual degrees (slowly eroding cognitive function, as well) before people realize they're in any real danger, especially with sweating and paradoxical sensations of warmth.

They could have huddled together at nightfall with one adult intending to go for help at first light, but all perished that night as inactivity and contact with the chilly ground, combined with the cold/wind/moisture of the weather, slowly continued lowering their body heat.

This page has great info:

http://www.redrockadventure.com/fishing/ice_fishing/hypothermia.htm

I have to say, I didn't know you could die of hypothermia in above freezing temps. Yesterday, I caught a few mins of Survivorman and he was explaing the same thing. He explained the moisture/wind effect and said even sweat could be fatalistic. I never gave much thought to the exposure theory before but now it seems just as likely as murder/suicide or murder.

I really hope LE is able to provide definitive answers or we'll be wondering forever.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I still come back to why?
Money? Why was the truck not gone through? Wallets were obviously not on them?
Sexual? IMO, this is BINGO!

I worry about this possibility too. And I guess we'd never know, from the state of the remains. Distressing.

 

[Mapman]

I thought of one too (also very unlikely, but still): In the area of the HRD hits, little Madyson climbs on some rocks, falls and hits her head, and tragically dies. Or maybe she just has a seizure of some kind, or chokes on a piece of candy, and dies that way. Her parents understandably lose it, and sit there holding her for hours in a grieving stupor, maybe even till it starts getting dark and/or starts raining. Then they rally themselves enough to try to get out of there, but they are a serious mess, confused and cold. While carrying her body, they get lost, and eventually die of hypothermia in the place where they were found.

You made it very clear that you were not promoting this hypothetical and that it was merely an effort to imagine a scenario which could explain the discovery of remains miles from the HRD clues without foul play if the clues are human.

After thinking about the scenario I took another look at the clue area on Google Earth. A potential problem with the scenario is that there does not seem to be a route from the truck to the clues that is short enough to permit the Jamisons to get there before sunset on the first night. This suggests that they would have spent at least one night on the trail. It doesn't seem like any of them would have had the energy to play or climb on rocks or even be inclined to leave the road at that point, and clue #8 is the nearest clue to the road at 73 yards.

On the other hand by using a lot of zoom on Google Earth it appears that clue #8 might be on the top of a small ridge or rocky hill and the other clues appear to be on smoother ground a little farther from the road. Clue #8 looks like a good place to get injured, and if Madyson bled at that location the blood could later decompose and alert the HR dogs. Then if Madyson was moved from the small rocky hill to the flatter area she could have bled in several areas leaving decomposing blood to alert the HR dogs. But if Madyson was injured at clue #8, it seems like she would have been moved towards the road rather than farther from it. Also, I would have expected some traces of decomposition to be on the road if Madyson was carried a long distance while severely injured or deceased, but possibly rains more effectively erased the clues in the road than the clues in the woods. To further compound the tragedy, if this is what happened, the point in the road adjacent to clue #8 is within a quarter of a mile of a cabin or home presently on the map.

I'm no HRD expert, but I did read that a single drop of human blood will decompose and can be detected by HR dogs. One other thing to keep in mind is that we are not 100% certain of the location of the clues because only part of the coordinates were provided in the clue log and we had to assume what they meant.

It is difficult to apply what a rational thinking person or persons would have done if in the Jamisons shoes because of the unpredictable behavior that would probably result from the combination of the Jamisons existing physical/mental problems with the associated medications or lack of needed medications along with the the stress of being lost if that occurred and the further mental and physical impairment brought on by hypothermia, hunger or injury if that occurred. Although this scenario is low on the list I don't believe that we can mark it or something similar completely off.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I have to say, I didn't know you could die of hypothermia in above freezing temps. Yesterday, I caught a few mins of Survivorman and he was explaing the same thing. He explained the moisture/wind effect and said even sweat could be fatalistic.

I had no idea either, till a survival-type guy gave a talk at a campground where I was staying.

He said to us, "So, you're lost in the woods with nothing. No sustenance, no tools, no matches. What is the very first thing you do? Create shelter, find a water source, or find a food source?" We all said, "Water." He said no - shelter. We were surprised.

He explained, "You can die of hypothermia if it's 55 degrees and raining. It's crucial to stay dry, and to keep as warm as you can, blocking any wind as much as possible." Our mouths dropped open; none of us knew hypothermia could occur at that warm of a temperature.

He said 55 degrees, but what I've been reading on the web lately says 50 and below. His talk was about 15 years ago, so I'm sure the most recent stuff is more accurate.

Hypothermia sets in when the body temperature drops only 3.4 degrees below normal. Wow. We are indeed delicately calibrated creatures.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333

 

[TooCurious]

I worry about this possibility too. And I guess we'd never know, from the state of the remains. Distressing.

No we wouldn't. The only clue that will hint to this is if they found no evidence of her clothes or shoes. (That is assuming she was taken off site vs being accosted on sight) But if they do find her clothing is doesn't rule it out.
I firmly believe they were murdered, body location rules out the other possibilities IMO. If you believe they were murdered, the next logical question is why. Sexual assault is all I can come up with.

 

[Dallen]

Hmm, bow season? Could a bow hunter have accidentally shot one of the Jamisons and killed the other two to cover it all up? Seems kind of extreme, but sometimes a person in panic mode will do really stupid things. Maybe especially so if they've just accidentally killed a child.

It does seem extreme, but a possibility IMO. I have been thinking about the hunters scenario lately and it could've played out a number of different ways. And TooCurious, I agree that it didn't have to necessarily be a bow hunter, but could've been just about anyone that carries a rifle in case they see a deer and happened to be on that mountain that day (not legal, but we know there are some that do). Could've very well been an accident, and then as we all know, Sherilyn could've come at them with full force, doing more than threatening, and before you know it, this person is trying to cover it up. I just pray that we get answers for this family someday. It's seeming more far off each day.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

A potential problem with the scenario is that there does not seem to be a route from the truck to the clues that is short enough to permit the Jamisons to get there before sunset on the first night. This suggests that they would have spent at least one night on the trail.

I appreciate this info; I didn't know in practical terms how far the clues were from the truck. But thankfully there is Mapman. Ha! Sounds like a superhero. A big unfolded map attached to your shoulders like a cape. Able to explain stuff in a single bound!

I'm no HRD expert, but I did read that a single drop of human blood will decompose and can be detected by HR dogs.

I had no idea this was so! That could change everything regarding the HRD hits. So no one had to die there, they could have just bled there?? That creates new possible scenarios...

It is difficult to apply what a rational thinking person or persons would have done if in the Jamisons shoes because of the unpredictable behavior that would probably result from the combination of the Jamisons existing physical/mental problems with the associated medications or lack of needed medications along with the the stress of being lost if that occurred and the further mental and physical impairment brought on by hypothermia, hunger or injury if that occurred.

Good point about hunger. I'm hypoglycemic, and when my blood sugar drops, I get confused. For some reason, one of the first impairments I experience is the inability to make decisions. Friends will notice me staring at nothing, pale, cold sweat, and they'll say, "Do you need to eat something?" Well the answer is yes, of course, but for some reason, in this state, I usually reply, "I don't know." - "Well, you probably do. What can I get you to eat?" - "I don't know." It's this weird feeling of almost childlike bewilderment and helplessness.

For some reason it had never occurred to me how much hunger could also have reduced the Jamisons' cognitive function. Damn... so many unlucky factors combined to put these poor folks at high risk of irrational or disoriented behavior.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

No we wouldn't. The only clue that will hint to this is if they found no evidence of her clothes or shoes. (That is assuming she was taken off site vs being accosted on sight) But if they do find her clothing is doesn't rule it out.
I firmly believe they were murdered, body location rules out the other possibilities IMO. If you believe they were murdered, the next logical question is why. Sexual assault is all I can come up with.

Right, since we know they weren't robbed (money left in purse/wallets). The only other things I can think of is an accident covered up by someone who panicked, or, they saw something they shouldn't have (drugs etc.) and someone had a very hardcore response.

 

[TooCurious]

The covered accident scenario doesn't seem right to me because they were in their truck. No blood so no accidental shooting. Doing a drug deal in the middle of a one lane road doesn't seem smart, from drug dealers stand point. Why wouldn't the drug deal go on up to open area before making the transaction. If they met them going up, then there was no drug deal to see.
They made it back to the truck and were inside of it. If they had seen something in the woods, how easy could someone have chased and overcome them? Pretty easy IMO. The "seen something" scenario doesn't line up with what we know. If they did see something, and knew it was bad do you think they would stop for anything? I bet Sherilyne's .22 would have come out fast if they something and then those same people stopped them on the road.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

The covered accident scenario doesn't seem right to me because they were in their truck. <rsbm> The "seen something" scenario doesn't line up with what we know.

Both of those scenarios involved the premise of them getting out of the truck for whatever reason, walking a ways but intending to be back soon, since their stuff was there, the dog was there, and it was locked. Maybe they got out for a bathroom break and then headed down a trail for a bit, or they had a fight where one person walked into the woods, or maybe stopped to take a look at some interesting rock formations etc.

This is just theorizing though, and who knows how likely it is. If they did stop the truck because of the presence of the person who did them harm and only got out under duress, that completely changes the possible scenarios, for sure.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

No, on second thought it couldn't be a hunting accident anywhere near the truck, because the dogs would have detected blood.

As Mapman said, the HRD clues area was a long long trek away from the truck. Either they had to have gone there for some inexplicable reason, and had something happen to them there; or someone took them there.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Is it possible the HRD hits are a red herring? If the dogs can scent decomposing human blood, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the scent of a dead body that alerts them, then maybe it wasn't the Jamisons' blood.

Maybe someone who was there, a hunter etc., cut themselves while next to the water tower, and walked around dripping traces of blood for a while. I don't know. It depends on whether these HRD hits were for blood in the ground, or the scent of decomposition that lies along the ground but gets blows around by wind.

 

[Nacho]

Is Oklahoma the state with the crazy large backlog? Either way, how long should it take to positively identify the remains they found as the Jamison family?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is it possible the HRD hits are a red herring? If the dogs can scent decomposing human blood, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the scent of a dead body that alerts them, then maybe it wasn't the Jamisons' blood.

Maybe someone who was there, a hunter etc., cut themselves while next to the water tower, and walked around dripping traces of blood for a while. I don't know. It depends on whether these HRD hits were for blood in the ground, or the scent of decomposition that lies along the ground but gets blows around by wind.

Or a dead body that has been there for years, possibly decades.

 

[OkieGranny]

They made it back to the truck and were inside of it. If they had seen something in the woods, how easy could someone have chased and overcome them? Pretty easy IMO. The "seen something" scenario doesn't line up with what we know. If they did see something, and knew it was bad do you think they would stop for anything? I bet Sherilyne's .22 would have come out fast if they something and then those same people stopped them on the road.

I agree. The Jamisons were inside the truck, they were leaving the well site, and someone stopped them. I've tried to see it any other way, but just can't do it.

If Sherilyn got upset, jumped out of the truck and took off running into the woods, would Bobby would have left Madyson alone in the truck to go after her? I don't think so. And if he had first unstrapped Madyson from her car seat, would they have been able to catch up with her? That's hard to imagine, unless she changed her mind and came back toward them. If this was the scenario, how would the three of them have managed to find each other in the woods and then be so hopelessly lost that they wound up where the remains were found?

Is it possible the HRD hits are a red herring? If the dogs can scent decomposing human blood, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the scent of a dead body that alerts them, then maybe it wasn't the Jamisons' blood.

Maybe someone who was there, a hunter etc., cut themselves while next to the water tower, and walked around dripping traces of blood for a while. I don't know. It depends on whether these HRD hits were for blood in the ground, or the scent of decomposition that lies along the ground but gets blows around by wind.

Yeah, I'm not totally convinced the HRD alerts had anything to do with the Jamisons. Our fellow sleuther Oriah, who seems to have some SAR experience, was very skeptical of the clue logs:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6243240&postcount=367.

I don't really have a clue about the clue log, lol. I believe most of those 'hits' are in the vicinity of the water tower- although there is another page of them as well, where I believe they were searching another area.

The thing is- if those are true HRD hits from HRD dogs....then what was recovered as evidence from those locations?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7117145&postcount=543.

Imvho, the initial search efforts were somewhat lacking in organization- and likely in experience in multiple ways.

A disappearance that calls for such a massive response from LE and SAR should have records like crazy. But unfortunately they are both lacking in a lot of different ways.

What's an HRD 'hit' without a sample taken and placed into evidence? Kwim?

It's useless. Especially if a crime is thought to have occurred.

Mapman, did you ever check the historical views on Google Earth to see if you can find the water tank? I did, but had no luck. It must have been big enough to hold bodies, or they wouldn't have drained it, but not big enough to be obvious among the trees. I wish we knew exactly where it was.

 

[OkieGranny]

Is Oklahoma the state with the crazy large backlog? Either way, how long should it take to positively identify the remains they found as the Jamison family?

Yes.

Deteriorating Oklahoma Medical Examiner facility leaves more than 1,000 families waiting for answers

It will probably be a while before we know anything.

 

[wfgodot]

Thanks for the Oriah links on the HR dog(s) OkieGranny - I knew I had good reason to discount that and Oriah of course is good reason - yes, it was what O. had posted! Forgot that part.

 

[TooCurious]

Yes.

Deteriorating Oklahoma Medical Examiner facility leaves more than 1,000 families waiting for answers

It will probably be a while before we know anything.

Pretty sure I read they were being sent to a lab inTexas for id. Was that wrong?

 

[OkieGranny]

Pretty sure I read they were being sent to a lab inTexas for id. Was that wrong?

No, I read that too, but that lab in Texas handles a huge number of cases from all over this part of the country, so I'm still not pinning my hopes on a quick answer.