OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[Mitch1]

i just don't see how this could be murder/suicide. In that type of terrain it would take at least couple of hours to reach where they were found. It would be slow going and they would be getting hot and sweaty. So, are the murder/suicide supporters think she held a gun on them the whole way? From the time she made them get out of the truck until they got to the area? Le takes scenarios and by way of eliminating they state why it isn't this or that scenario. Anyone care to try this here?
Why isn't it
a) murder/suicide
b) exposure
c) murder (by as of yet unknown assailant(s))
d) wpp (for u mitch)
e) drug od

here is mine
a) as stated above
b) i can't rule this out yet
c) i can't rule this out yet
d) 3 bodies, 1 pink shoe
e) no evidence they were using drugs, except prescription.

Anyone care to do this and see what logical scenarios we can come up with?

holla!!

 

[Soulmagent]

Stolen list

A) murder/suicide
B) exposure
C) murder (by as of yet unknown assailant(s))
D) WPP (for u Mitch)
E) drug OD

Here is mine
A) As stated above
B) I can't rule this out yet
C) I can't rule this out yet
D) 3 bodies, 1 pink shoe
E) No evidence they were using drugs, except prescription.

A.) The HRD HITS.
B. The HRD HITS
C. THE HRD HITS.
d. 3 bodies and the vast amount of LE "issues" I stumble across routinely. I don't think the WPP could save them if those kinda problems were relavent .and the HRD hits.
e. The hrd hits.

 

[TooCurious]

Stolen list



A.) The HRD HITS.
B. The HRD HITS
C. THE HRD HITS.
d. 3 bodies and the vast amount of LE "issues" I stumble across routinely. I don't think the WPP could save them if those kinda problems were relavent .and the HRD hits.
e. The hrd hits.

So why does the hrd hits exclude murdered by an unknown individual? I think you may have meant to leave C as "can't exclude".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/29/us/killings-illuminate-culture-of-white-supremacists.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
There are more of these type cases ,more recent and closer.

I don't really know with what M.O you mean. I promise I can provide a link for just about any one you pick.

It was something like this, yes. The people missing and found dead, possibly marched to the location.

 

[Mapman]

Stolen list



A.) The HRD HITS.
B. The HRD HITS
C. THE HRD HITS.
d. 3 bodies and the vast amount of LE "issues" I stumble across routinely. I don't think the WPP could save them if those kinda problems were relavent .and the HRD hits.
e. The hrd hits.

Has information been released that the clues are or could be evidence of human remains? If dogs have difficulty distinguishing the difference between human and pig remains it is possible that LE ruled out human if they actually found some remains that tested as pig. It appears to me that if the clues have been confirmed to be non-human that it would significantly change people's opinion on possible scenarios.

Also, if the clues are evidence of the remains of the Jamisons, it wouldn't seem to absolutely rule out murder/suicde or death from exposure. Someone could have found three bodies and moved them merely to avoid having the ruckus of LE stomping all over their neck of the woods. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[OkieGranny]

Bringing forward the weather data from Thread #11 to refresh our collective memory, with expanded info for October 8, the last day that we know for sure the Jamisons were still living.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGZL/2009/10/8/DailyHistory.html?MR=1


Daily high/low temps and precipitation for Stigler, about 25 miles north of the well site:

Mon, Oct 5…...62/53…0.03 (rain, thunderstorm)
Tue, Oct 6…...68/59…0.72 (rain, thunderstorm)
Wed, Oct 7…..68/44…0.0
Thu, Oct 8.....86/57...0.01 (thunderstorm from 9:55 pm through midnight)
Fri, Oct 9......59/48...1.33 (thunderstorm)
Sat, Oct 10....50/46...0.0

Sunset was at 6:54 pm on October 8
Civil twilight at 7:19 pm*
Nautical twilight at 7:48 pm**
Waning gibbous moon (78% illuminated) rose at at 10:51 pm


For Poteau, about 40 miles east:

Mon, Oct 5…..64/57…0.0 (rain, thunderstorm)
Tue, Oct 6…...73/62…0.57 (rain, thunderstorm)
Wed, Oct 7…..68/51…0.0
Thu, Oct 8…...87/62…0.0 (light rain at 8:52 pm)
Fri, Oct 9…....71/53…0.51 (rain, thunderstorm)
Sat, Oct 10…..55/53…0.0

Sunset at 6:52 pm on October 8
Civili twilight at 7:17 pm*
Nautical twilight at 7:47 pm**
Waning gibbous moon (78% illuminated) rose at 9:48 pm


For McAlester, about 40 miles west:

Mon, Oct 5…...62/55…0.82 (fog, rain)
Tue, Oct 6…...70/54….1.00 (rain)
Wed, Oct 7…..64/48….0.10 (rain)
Thu, Oct 8......86/59...2.27 (rain from 9:53 pm through midnight)
Fri, Oct 9.......57/48...1.76 (rain)
Sat, Oct 10.....52/46...0.0

Sunset at 6:57 pm on October 8
Civil twilight at 7:22 pm*
Nautical twilight at 8:20 pm**
Waning gibbous moon (78% illuminated) rose at 9:53 pm


* Civil twilight is when the sun is no more than 6 degrees below the horizon and one should still be able to carry out ordinary outdoor activities.

** Nautical twilight is when the sun is 6 to 12 degrees below the horizon and ordinary outdoor activities are no longer possible without another source of illumination.

 

[OkieGranny]

Has information been released that the clues are or could be evidence of human remains? If dogs have difficulty distinguishing the difference between human and pig remains it is possible that LE ruled out human if they actually found some remains that tested as pig. It appears to me that if the clues have been confirmed to be non-human that it would significantly change people's opinion on possible scenarios.

Also, if the clues are evidence of the remains of the Jamisons, it wouldn't seem to absolutely rule out murder/suicde or death from exposure. Someone could have found three bodies and moved them merely to avoid having the ruckus of LE stomping all over their neck of the woods. Unlikely, but possible.

I suspect that if the HRD alerts were genuine hits, the dogs may have been catching scent only, or possibly blood. If the bodies were in that area for a few days before being moved, there shouldn't be any physical evidence to collect other than blood that may have soaked into the soil and, with the rain that fell over the next few days, it might have been difficult to detect a good sample to dig up. I do not know of any evidence collected as a result of the HRD alerts.

Found a property for sale very close by, called "Hog Mountain", that lists wild boar among the variety of wildlife that can be found in the area.

http://www.landsofamerica.com/oklahoma/land-for-sale/320-acres-in-Latimer-County-Oklahoma/id/1075410

 

[Mapman]

Bringing forward the weather data from Thread #11 to refresh our collective memory, with expanded info for October 8, the last day that we know for sure the Jamisons were still living.

Two healthy adults would have to be tragically inept as to their outdoor survival skills to perish from exposure in that area under those weather conditions before being rescued. But they were not particularly healthy, and if they were required to take daily heavy medication for physical and/or mental problems they might have been as helpless as their child within a couple of days of being lost. Perhaps a lack of necessary medication combined with the stress of being lost and confused might have really affected their ability to cope with what should have been a non-fatal situation.

 

[Mapman]

I suspect that if the HRD alerts were genuine hits, the dogs may have been catching scent only, or possibly blood. If the bodies were in that area for a few days before being moved, there shouldn't be any physical evidence to collect other than blood that may have soaked into the soil and, with the rain that fell over the next few days, it might have been difficult to detect a good sample to dig up. I do not know of any evidence collected as a result of the HRD alerts.

Found a property for sale very close by, called "Hog Mountain", that lists wild boar among the variety of wildlife that can be found in the area.

http://www.landsofamerica.com/oklahoma/land-for-sale/320-acres-in-Latimer-County-Oklahoma/id/1075410

So then from the information available it is reasonable to assume that the HRD clues were actual hits on pig or human remains but we don't know which? Has anyone else heard that dogs have difficulty distinguishing between human and pig remains? I have been told that is the case, but I can't say that I know it to be a fact.

 

[TooCurious]

Two healthy adults would have to be tragically inept as to their outdoor survival skills to perish from exposure in that area under those weather conditions before being rescued. But they were not particularly healthy, and if they were required to take daily heavy medication for physical and/or mental problems they might have been as helpless as their child within a couple of days of being lost. Perhaps a lack of necessary medication combined with the stress of being lost and confused might have really affected their ability to cope with what should have been a non-fatal situation.

I don't think they died of exposure. Just to be impartial, I will add that the wind chill the night of the eighth would have put them in a life or death situation without shelter. Gusts were above 30 with 20 mph sustained winds.

One problem I have with your scenario though is that they would have had to of been in that condition near midway of their final destination. If you look about half way you can see they crossed another road. If you are assuming they wondered around a while then it should be assumed they crossed the road multiple times and each time did not choose to follow it out. I understand disoriented, but the level of disorientation you are referencing would not have let them complete the final leg of their journey if it had set in by the time they reached the first road. IMO

 

[zollie]

I have a few questions that would help me on my timeline, any help would be great. I am hoping to get up to Panola soon and take some pictures.

Does anyone know what state "The out of state land owners Bobby called" live in or an area code? This would be most helpful to me on my timeline.

Did the Jamison's talk to "the neighbor" on Oct. 8th? I know they talked to him the night before, how about his name or initials? I have the name of the girl in the red car (following the Jamison's) and the lady going to Wilburton hospital.

Regarding the receipt for gas: was the gas bought in Porum or in Porum Landing (on texanna road)? If it is Porum this would change the route completely and add 30 miles each way maybe more. You wouldn't take this route living in Sandy Bass Bay, you would go across the dam. How much gas was bought each day and were their any hotdogs purchased?

Side Notes;
Bow season in Oklahoma starts on Oct. 1st.
Probably not related but interesting; Missing Persons Tommy Easteps, truck was found by bow hunters near Wetumka Oklahoma with his wallet, $70 and cc's inside on Oct. 8th 2013. Tommy was last seen in Eufaula July 4th 2013 and in Holdenville on July 6th, both towns are on hwy 9. If you lived in Eufaula you would take hwy 9 to Panola. Easteps truck was found 35 miles South of Bristoi Oklahoma.

 

[wfgodot]

Hi zollie and welcome to WS.

 

[TooCurious]

Who and how does the lady going to Wilburton affect the case. I have not read about her.

Welcome to WS.

 

[OkieGranny]

I have a few questions that would help me on my timeline, any help would be great. I am hoping to get up to Panola soon and take some pictures.

Does anyone know what state "The out of state land owners Bobby called" live in or an area code? This would be most helpful to me on my timeline.

Did the Jamison's talk to "the neighbor" on Oct. 8th? I know they talked to him the night before, how about his name or initials? I have the name of the girl in the red car (following the Jamison's) and the lady going to Wilburton hospital.

Regarding the receipt for gas: was the gas bought in Porum or in Porum Landing (on texanna road)? If it is Porum this would change the route completely and add 30 miles each way maybe more. You wouldn't take this route living in Sandy Bass Bay, you would go across the dam. How much gas was bought each day and were their any hotdogs purchased?

Side Notes;
Bow season in Oklahoma starts on Oct. 1st.
Probably not related but interesting; Missing Persons Tommy Easteps, truck was found by bow hunters near Wetumka Oklahoma with his wallet, $70 and cc's inside on Oct. 8th 2013. Tommy was last seen in Eufaula July 4th 2013 and in Holdenville on July 6th, both towns are on hwy 9. If you lived in Eufaula you would take hwy 9 to Panola. Easteps truck was found 35 miles South of Bristoi Oklahoma.

The out-of-state land owners lived in Florida. The Jamisons did talk to the neighbor, DC, again on the 8th. Credit card receipts show they purchased gas at the same place in Porum on both days. I don't know anything more than that.

TooCurious, it was the lady whose husband was in the hospital in Wilburton, from the statement DC gave to LE. It's posted somewhere on this thread.

 

[wfgodot]

Porum, gas, etc.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #10


Phrogy's Town and Country listed at 16500 Texanna RD Porum OK 74455.

 

[Soulmagent]

Has information been released that the clues are or could be evidence of human remains? If dogs have difficulty distinguishing the difference between human and pig remains it is possible that LE ruled out human if they actually found some remains that tested as pig. It appears to me that if the clues have been confirmed to be non-human that it would significantly change people's opinion on possible scenarios.

Also, if the clues are evidence of the remains of the Jamisons, it wouldn't seem to absolutely rule out murder/suicde or death from exposure. Someone could have found three bodies and moved them merely to avoid having the ruckus of LE stomping all over their neck of the woods. Unlikely, but possible.

Evidence (the clue logs ) exist that the HRD dogs (trained to pick up the scent of human remain ) picked up the scent of human remains. It is not possible the HR alerts are dead pig scents.

It could be some other remains and not the Jamison's I suppose but they are from a human and not a pig and I believe they are real alerts .

Which puts me at having a really really hard time with suicide and exposure deaths.

Also I would like to point out the alerts on the clue log happened on the 12th of dec . 2 full months after the first searches.

I did mess up on my list and C was supposed to be I cannot rule that out.

 

[zollie]

Thanks that helps. I found the red car, lady going to wilburton on oeta video at 545 min mark still frame. The porum gas just helped elminate something.[ now i am just trying connect florida/ to that still frame /and to panola mtn/ and to 20 miles within bristo. Video can be seen on you tube] which i have connected but proabably means nothing. Maybe someone could double check. I am not vey good with family tree stuff

 

[salgtrn]

Ok I need to apologize because I used the word "fear." I meant things not being said (because most people would be afraid to say them) like, was the whole J family involved in prostitutes, gangs, and drugs like BJ said on his OOP he filed against Bob Sr., was mom involved int he family business, how did you meet SJ, did you ever do drugs with SJ or BJ and if so, who else did them with you or sold them to you, or are you currently or in the past were you, and are any of your relatives and friends currently or in the past, involved in meth or other illegal drugs. Those are the kinds of things i have not heard answers to and am not asking. If you have answered them I missed that. I am not and was not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or put them down. From the way it was put on the FTJ page I am a terrible human being because I did that. "Why do people have to be so hurtful?" got lots of ugly name calling responses from people who know nothing about me. I suppose that was what it was intended to do though. That's ok. I've processed it a few days and have put my big girl panties back on. I truly apologize if that was taken as an accusation of hiding something, because I didn't mean that. Sorry if I added unnecessary drama, because I hate drama! :truce:

Okiegranny your maps really are awesome!

The last one, that shows the route to where the bodies were found and then on to where the truck was found, leads to me to think that perhaps the Jamisons were murdered by someone they knew before they ever got to where the bodies or the truck were found.


"Maybe" MOTIVES

Madyson -Hoping this isn't the reason. Maybe said person looked at their daughter the wrong way and that's also why person was asked to leave at gunpoint. Maybe the parents were dumped there first and Madyson was kept. The truck was later driven to the spot where the truck was found with billfolds phones etc., and a picture of MJ was taken by someone who knew the J's had been to that site before (the spray painting on the beat up truck and to look at land) to throw people off of the actual crime scene. Kept Madyson for unknown reasons for a few days, then put her where parents were.

Money -Maybe they were being watched by ? and followed to the mountain. If this person lived with them and knew all of their business. that person would have known that they were going to get settlements, etc. and probably when, and that they were going to look at land. If there was money in the briefcase or whatever it was that's missing, maybe person took that, and didn't know about the money under the seat because BJ had put it there for safekeeping.

Drugs -Person is known meth dealer/cooker. How did they even become acquainted/ know each other? If were involved with meth and/or pain pills then maybe person got worried because of their deteriorating mental health putting at risk what they knew, and whether they were safe with that information.

Maybe all of the above.

Curious to know if the place they got fuel at twice had them or their truck on camera??

 

[SmoothOperator]

Ok I need to apologize because I used the word "fear." I meant things not being said (because most people would be afraid to say them) like, was the whole J family involved in prostitutes, gangs, and drugs like BJ said on his OOP he filed against Bob Sr., was mom involved int he family business, how did you meet SJ, did you ever do drugs with SJ or BJ and if so, who else did them with you or sold them to you, or are you currently or in the past were you, and are any of your relatives and friends currently or in the past, involved in meth or other illegal drugs. Those are the kinds of things i have not heard answers to and am not asking. If you have answered them I missed that. I am not and was not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or put them down. From the way it was put on the FTJ page I am a terrible human being because I did that. "Why do people have to be so hurtful?" got lots of ugly name calling responses from people who know nothing about me. I suppose that was what it was intended to do though. That's ok. I've processed it a few days and have put my big girl panties back on. I truly apologize if that was taken as an accusation of hiding something, because I didn't mean that. Sorry if I added unnecessary drama, because I hate drama! :truce:

Okiegranny your maps really are awesome!

The last one, that shows the route to where the bodies were found and then on to where the truck was found, leads to me to think that perhaps the Jamisons were murdered by someone they knew before they ever got to where the bodies or the truck were found.


"Maybe" MOTIVES

Madyson -Hoping this isn't the reason. Maybe said person looked at their daughter the wrong way and that's also why person was asked to leave at gunpoint. Maybe the parents were dumped there first and Madyson was kept. The truck was later driven to the spot where the truck was found with billfolds phones etc., and a picture of MJ was taken by someone who knew the J's had been to that site before (the spray painting on the beat up truck and to look at land) to throw people off of the actual crime scene. Kept Madyson for unknown reasons for a few days, then put her where parents were.

Money -Maybe they were being watched by ? and followed to the mountain. If this person lived with them and knew all of their business. that person would have known that they were going to get settlements, etc. and probably when, and that they were going to look at land. If there was money in the briefcase or whatever it was that's missing, maybe person took that, and didn't know about the money under the seat because BJ had put it there for safekeeping.

Drugs -Person is known meth dealer/cooker. How did they even become acquainted/ know each other? If were involved with meth and/or pain pills then maybe person got worried because of their deteriorating mental health putting at risk what they knew, and whether they were safe with that information.

Maybe all of the above.

Curious to know if the place they got fuel at twice had them or their truck on camera??

lol..salgtrn..lol.. yes, it certainly appears as tho our brief discussion where the word, "fear" was used, was greatly misconstrued into something not even near what we briefly discussed..:banghead:

I, too noticed the bit of drama that appeared to kick up over our extremely brief discussion(totaling all of 2 posts).. and I totally agree with you that a totally different meaning was misconstrued from what we were speaking of earlier in this thread..

No worries..:seeya: and its why I so love WS because we're able to not go off the rails into unnecessary drama.. I say we just move forward and that any/all here were perfectly understanding of what we meant when using the term "fear"..

 

[Mapman]

Evidence (the clue logs ) exist that the HRD dogs (trained to pick up the scent of human remain ) picked up the scent of human remains. It is not possible the HR alerts are dead pig scents.

Is there something other than the clue logs which indicate that the HRD clues were actually on human remains? I was under the impression that an alert was something that smelled like decomposing human remains to a trained dog. I'm not convinced that a HRD indication is infallible, and it seems like their alert would have to be verified to be certain.

An unverifiable alert in a bedroom would probably be human because it is unlikely that there have been dead pigs in a typical bedroom, but it seems like it would be a stretch to presume that an alert in the woods where lots of pigs live cannot be the remains of a pig. It might be helpful if we knew what LE determined regarding the alerts.

Articles that mention the pig caveat:

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion....dogs-saying-you-re-lying-pat-brown-13-12-2011

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html