OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[Hatfield]

Long time lurker here...I just felt compelled to comment on why I think murder/suicide can't be ruled out...

If you believe they could have wandered off & died of exposure, then I think you can also consider that they wandered off & ended in murder/suicide. They could have decided to go for a hike/walk and gotten lost. In that case, they would've probably taken the gun with them if they had it (if I had a gun & was in a strange, isolated place - I'd take it with me). They may not have reached the destination where the remains were found within a few hours or even a few days...if they were wandering around lost, maybe going in circles, they might have even still been out there while rescuers were searching. Sherilyn, who may have been a little unstable to begin with, could have felt a sense of complete hopelessness & killed herself/family rather than dying from exposure. Or maybe something happened to Madyson - she fell, hit her head & died...& they decided to end it.

It is also possible that they had been arguing already & things were tense...perhaps Sherilyn wasn't keen on moving to the mountain (the letter found in the truck). It may be why Madyson looked a little stressed in that last picture -if Mom & Dad had been arguing.

The one other thing that always bothered me in a murder/suicide scenario is the dog - why leave the family dog behind? But if they left that truck with the intention of going back & something happened on the way (a huge argument, getting lost, an accident etc) that led to murder/suicide, then it would explain why the dog was left to die on it's own.

The other thing that really creeps me out is the other abandoned truck on the property with the graffitti on it - if Sherilyn did that, I think it speaks volumes to the state of mind she may have been in. Why spray paint that truck? Did she feel she needed to ward off spirits? someone else? was she having an episode? I just don't think sane people do things like that...while looking at potential property to purchase. Then the letter she wrote, the missing gun, that last picture of Madyson (where she does look upset but not terrified).

Anyway, that's not to say I think it was murder/suicide - I honestly don't know what happened to them & find most of the theories posted here to be just as likely as any other...I just don't think we can rule it out either.

Also - have to say how impressed I am by the level of sleuthing done on this thread...I'm in awe of all of you!!!

Great Post.

I'm sorry I havent commented in awhile. Been so busy with life issues.
Just wanted to share my opinions at this point.

I am still on the fence between getting lost/murder/suicide OR foul play. The truck position does bother me and leans towards foul play, however,

One thing about getting lost is frustrations, hunger, thirst, and feelings of hopelessness and despair, and ANGER are very real and could have contributed in this case possibly.

From personal experience in getting "semi-lost" for a few hours with another fishing buddy, the one thing that I remember is we argued about the direction to go. It got pretty heated during our argument as we both wanted to get back to the vehicle, and we both thought we were right and we were both determined we knew the right way out. So you can see how things can get pretty heated in that situation. Luckily, for us, we found the right way before dark. But it was scary and it was serious at the time since we were in a vastly wooded and remote area where nobody knew we even went there.

I sure wish we had the Medical Examiner report as we need to know the specifics as that would help us understand which theory to go with.

The truck position really bothers me. The money in the truck bothers me.

Also, here is something I wanted to share for awhile now.

I met someone once fishing at Lake Tenkiller which is in Oklahoma. They were talking to me about hunting near the Warehouser (sp?) lumber property which if I am not mistaken is somewhat generally close to where the Jamesons were exploring.

This particular person said as they were hunting, they ran into another person who pulled a gun on them. I asked this guy for more details, and he basically said that the other guy seemed to be overly protective of the hunting area, even though it was supposed to be "public" property. It is my understanding that Warehouser lumber allows the public to hunt on some of their property.

The situation that guy was in just made me think that perhaps there are some folks who seem to claim their particular parts of the area as their own if they have hunted/fished/etc there for a long time OR if they were using the land for other nefarious purposes like outdoor meth cooking or oudoor MJ growing operations.

So, just got to thinking that maybe the family ran into someone who thought they were taking over "their" land, and especially if the Jamesons actually said they were buying some property, then perhaps this other person felt there is no way he is going to let them "take" his property. Even if the other guy or guys didnt legally own it.

Anyway, like I mentioned, I am so on the fence with this case and really need that ME report. Cmon ME. Hurry up. LOL

 

[wfgodot]

Also, here is something I wanted to share for awhile now.

I met someone once fishing at Lake Tenkiller which is in Oklahoma. They were talking to me about hunting near the Warehouser (sp?) lumber property which if I am not mistaken is somewhat generally close to where the Jamesons were exploring.

This particular person said as they were hunting, they ran into another person who pulled a gun on them. I asked this guy for more details, and he basically said that the other guy seemed to be overly protective of the hunting area, even though it was supposed to be "public" property. It is my understanding that Warehouser lumber allows the public to hunt on some of their property.

Hi Hatfield, good to see you again!

Here's a link with info about Weyerhaeuser and its "outdoor recreational leases" incl. in OK:

https://www.weyerhaeuserhuntinglands.com/

 

[OkieGranny]

Some of you are still holding onto the idea that the Jamisons walked from the well site to the location where they were eventually found, and I wish I could sit you down next to me in front of the computer. I'd pull up Google Earth and show you what I see. I'd zoom in to the general area so you could get oriented and then I'd point and say, watch when I do this, and I'd tilt the angle of view and change the position of the sun in the sky to throw shadows across the cliffs and the ravines, and say, now do you see? I'd say, look how smooth and benign it all looks from way up high in the sky, and I'd zoom in closer to bring the terrain into sharper focus and the jags and rocks and fallen trees begin to appear, and then even closer, and I'd turn it to give you a 360 view, and I'd say, now do you see? I'd take you on a trip down some of the roads, through giant puddles of standing water in the middle of them, through rocky places that are barely identifiable as a road. And I'd ask you, after they'd come down off the bluff and climbed back into the truck and plugged in the Blackberry and began to drive away, do you really think a woman and a gimped-up man and a six-year-old child climbed out of that truck and walked through this of their own volition? Do you really?

The images I've shown you so far are a bit misleading, as this area as seen on Google Earth and Google Maps was photographed in March, before the trees had really leafed out. We've seen the news videos of the searches conducted weeks after the Jamisons disappeared, and the trees then were absolutely gorgeous with fall color. The leaves had not yet begun to fall on October 8, so this image of the location of the remains might give you a better idea of the density of the woods:

If they walked from the well site to that location, what route did they take? Did they wander aimlessly through the woods? Did they walk halfway down the hill and then take the road that runs along Smokestack Hollow? If so, that route is about five and a half miles. Did they walk back across the well site and climb back up the bluff, go over the top of the mountain, and walk down the other side? There are a number of roads criss-crossing the area back there, and if they followed one of those roads to the bottom of the mountain to the remains site, the most direct route is 4.68 miles. I traced that route in yellow. This view is from the northwest; Smokestack Hollow is at the upper right and the back side of the mountain is on the left:

You might be surprised to see how many houses, cabins, and mobile homes are on that mountain. Not all of them inhabited full-time, I'm sure, but many are. If the Jamisons needed help or shelter and couldn't get a phone signal, they knew where DC lived at the foot of the well site road, a relatively easy hike down the hill. Why would they take off in a totally different direction, and not take a cell phone with them to try to catch a better signal? Why didn't they stay in the truck and drive away from there?

This view is from the foot of the well site road in the foreground to the pink balloon marking the location of the remains at the top of the image:

And the view from the opposite direction:

It's hard to show you the bigger picture on here without blowing the margins, but you need a sense of scale to really grasp what it means to travel cross-country on foot in this terrain. This image might help a little. It's a view looking south at the location of the remains; the well site is out of frame to the left, Smokestack Hollow off to the right. Look at the very bottom of the image; do you see the buildings? Now imagine a person small enough to fit inside one of those buildings. Now look at the size of that cliff off to the left:

I have to leave you to ponder that for a while, as I only have two kid-free days left to get some Christmas shopping done, so I'd better get started. Will check back in later.

 

[TooCurious]

Hatfield,
What you described is kinda what happened to me. I bought a house and some acreage and my nieghbor thought or had feelings that my pond, which sits in the middle of my property, was his. He was disputing property lines or anything. It was just his because he always fished it! He even invited his friends to fish in ky pond! The last incident I had involved me ordering a person off at gunpoint. This is scenario is a possibility, even if a small one. I am not back in the woods per se but I can only imagine the feelinds of entitlement to the land run a bit stronger.

 

[Hatfield]

Hi Hatfield, good to see you again!

Here's a link with info about Weyerhaeuser and its "outdoor recreational leases" incl. in OK:

https://www.weyerhaeuserhuntinglands.com/

Thanks for the map. By clicking on the State , and then clicking on the Counties to the right of that, it does show Latimer and another county that gets pretty darn close to where the Jamesons were, although I think still East of where the Jamesons were.

Even though the location is probably east of where they were, the "situation" that guy was in could be a possible situation that the Jamesons encountered. If they got to talking with a person in their area, and they made the mistake of telling the person they were buying the property, it may have triggered the "criminal" person to go ballistic on them.

Just another theory of course. Really hope that ME report gives more details of the condition of the bodies and particular wounds on the bodies.

 

[Hatfield]

Hatfield,
What you described is kinda what happened to me. I bought a house and some acreage and my nieghbor thought or had feelings that my pond, which sits in the middle of my property, was his. He was disputing property lines or anything. It was just his because he always fished it! He even invited his friends to fish in ky pond! The last incident I had involved me ordering a person off at gunpoint. This is scenario is a possibility, even if a small one. I am not back in the woods per se but I can only imagine the feelinds of entitlement to the land run a bit stronger.

I know exactly what you mean. I too have had similar (but much less serious) issues with neighbors mowing an extra 4 feet of my property because they just could not accept that I owned it. Even after having it surveyed and having pins put in at the corners. None of that matters to people who can't or wont "let it go".

It is really sad when another person does not respect true surveyed property lines. And even sadder when people try to claim public land as their own just because it is their "spot" they have always used.

I have become a believer of the saying "A good fence makes good neighbors". The only problem is the cost of putting in fences. Very costly, but sometimes worth it.

 

[TooCurious]

Okiegranny,
Excellent! Thanks for posting that.

 

[Hatfield]

Okiegranny,
Excellent! Thanks for posting that.

Ditto. Thanks Okiegranny. That does show us the type of terrain they were dealing with and how far it was to where they were found.

 

[Dallen]

OkieGranny, your last picture really helped me visualize how rough this terrain actually is. Wow. Thank you.

 

[TooCurious]

There are a lot of remote places out that way, can we draw any inferences from it being close to two houses? As in, maybe they didn't know the houses were there when they dropped the bodies? Maybe not locals afterall? Or maybe extremely local, as in a few houses down?

 

[Solitaryone]

I think NS is a very good freind to the Jamison's. If something happened to me, I'd hope for a friend who would not ever give up searching for me and the truth of what happened. I can only imagine how emotionally hard it really is for NS to continue searching for the truth of what really happened to the Jamison's 4+years now, all the while answering questions about her knowledge of the Jamison's lives as she knew them to be, and the emotional and physical toll this must have on her. The Jamison's were and are blessed to have a true friend in NS.

OkieGranny, thank you so much for the screen shots of the areas you've mapped out! It really does help! I have no idea how to do mapping, and 'reading' of maps. Also, for those of us whose eyesight ain't what it used to be, your maps are very helpful.

I'm very impressed with all the work everyone is doing here! I don't really have anything I can add, except to consider the various scenarios and theories put forth. I still think they ran into some very bad someone(s) on the mountain and were murdered for whatever reasons.

The case of the Jamison's just seems to me, and I'm sure many, to be one of those cases that once you start following, it sucks you in, and won't let go. I know I check this thread several times a day ,lol.

 

[Mapman]

Some of you are still holding onto the idea that the Jamisons walked from the well site to the location where they were eventually found, and I wish I could sit you down next to me in front of the computer. I'd pull up Google Earth and show you what I see. I'd zoom in to the general area so you could get oriented and then I'd point and say, watch when I do this, and I'd tilt the angle of view and change the position of the sun in the sky to throw shadows across the cliffs and the ravines, and say, now do you see? I'd say, look how smooth and benign it all looks from way up high in the sky, and I'd zoom in closer to bring the terrain into sharper focus and the jags and rocks and fallen trees begin to appear, and then even closer, and I'd turn it to give you a 360 view, and I'd say, now do you see? I'd take you on a trip down some of the roads, through giant puddles of standing water in the middle of them, through rocky places that are barely identifiable as a road. And I'd ask you, after they'd come down off the bluff and climbed back into the truck and plugged in the Blackberry and began to drive away, do you really think a woman and a gimped-up man and a six-year-old child climbed out of that truck and walked through this of their own volition? Do you really?

Everyone here has an opinion. I am one of those people who don't believe that it is inconceivable that the Jamisons could have walked from the truck to the location of the remains. I don't believe that they would have intentionally set out to do it, but I don't believe that they would only have done it if they were forced by someone. Also, I don't believe that they could have made the trip from the truck to the location of their remains before sunset on the day of their disappearance, and unless the Jamisons were out of their minds they would have remained on the roads rather than plow through the woods. The roads are undoubtedly rough and steep in many places, but the presence of cabins, homes, and gas wells scattered all over the mountain suggests that they are navigable by vehicle. If the roads can be used by vehicle, they can be used on foot.

I have already stated my opinion that two healthy adults would have to be tragically inept at surviving outdoors to have died from exposure in this area, but I'm nowhere near ruling out the possibility. I find it as least as significant that the remains were located 140-150 yards from the nearest road as the fact that the remains were located over five miles by road from the truck. Unless they hunkered down on the side of that hill for protection from the elements, it is hard to think of a reason why lost persons in their right mind would stray far from a road where there would be hope that help would eventually pass by – this suggests foul play to me more than the distance from the truck to the remains.

I'm not ruling out exposure or murder. This might change after the ME releases a report or if we get more information on the HRD clues.

 

[Solitaryone]

I've been wanting to ask all here their thoughts and opinions on something. My theory is that someone local abducted and killed the Jamison's. I think it's someone(s) who were familiar with the area and who didn't raise curiosity, questions or suspicions from the other residents in the area.

What I've been wondering is, what kind of people from out of the area who moved to this area would be accepted, and what kind of people would not be?

I've read that some who live there are locals to the area, but that some are not. Like DC, was he from that area originally, as in having ties locally? I read his mom was living in California. Did DC come from there too? If so, how would he have even known about this place? Same questions apply to the residents who live there but are from somewhere else. Do those people have ties to the area?

Thank's to anyone who can help to explain!

 

[Mitch1]

I've been wanting to ask all here their thoughts and opinions on something. My theory is that someone local abducted and killed the Jamison's. I think it's someone(s) who were familiar with the area and who didn't raise curiosity, questions or suspicions from the other residents in the area.

What I've been wondering is, what kind of people from out of the area who moved to this area would be accepted, and what kind of people would not be?

I've read that some who live there are locals to the area, but that some are not. Like DC, was he from that area originally, as in having ties locally? I read his mom was living in California. Did DC come from there too? If so, how would he have even known about this place? Same questions apply to the residents who live there but are from somewhere else. Do those people have ties to the area?

Thank's to anyone who can help to explain!

As far as what kind of people would or wouldn't be accepted-I'm not really sure that would come into play as they would have "their own space" (and a lot of it) being so sparsely populated.

I truly don't feel that the Jamisons fit the profile for someone who would be targeted for a small town mentality type killing. Maybe a thrill kill though

 

[OkieGranny]

There are a lot of remote places out that way, can we draw any inferences from it being close to two houses? As in, maybe they didn't know the houses were there when they dropped the bodies? Maybe not locals afterall? Or maybe extremely local, as in a few houses down?

Hmm, well, let me look...

Okay, I just measured the distance against the scale on Google Earth and it looks like the site of the remains is about 3,000 feet from those two houses. That's over half a mile, with a lot of trees in between. When I go back and look at this picture:

The thing that stands out to me is the road (traced in red) that turns off the well site road about halfway down the hill and then curves around to the northwest along Smokestack Hollow. There are NO homes at all along that road, as far as I can tell.

A local would probably know that, but it would be quite a feat for an outsider to pull off, to choose that particular road and dump the bodies where there would be the fewest possible number of witnesses. Or maybe just a heck of a coincidence. There are other areas on that mountain just as remote or even more so, but that one at least had a fairly driveable road leading to it.

I think NS is a very good friend to the Jamisons. If something happened to me, I'd hope for a friend who would not ever give up searching for me and the truth of what happened. I can only imagine how emotionally hard it really is for NS to continue searching for the truth of what really happened to the Jamison's 4+ years now, all the while answering questions about her knowledge of the Jamisons lives as she knew them to be, and the emotional and physical toll this must have on her. The Jamison's were and are blessed to have a true friend in NS.

OkieGranny, thank you so much for the screen shots of the areas you've mapped out! It really does help! I have no idea how to do mapping, and 'reading' of maps. Also, for those of us whose eyesight ain't what it used to be, your maps are very helpful.

I'm very impressed with all the work everyone is doing here! I don't really have anything I can add, except to consider the various scenarios and theories put forth. I still think they ran into some very bad someone(s) on the mountain and were murdered for whatever reasons.

The case of the Jamisons just seems to me, and I'm sure many, to be one of those cases that once you start following, it sucks you in, and won't let go. I know I check this thread several times a day, lol.

I absolutely agree about NS. I know from reading all the posts on FTJ that she'd been holding on to hope that Madyson at least was still alive, so the news of three sets of remains had to be devastating. Normally, it's family members using social media to keep their missing ones' faces and names out there in the public eye, and pushing for results from LE, but Bobby and Sherilyn and Madyson didn't have family participating in much of that, so I'm glad NS stepped up to the plate. As I've said before, without her input, we'd know very little about who the Jamisons were.

The Jamison case has definitely sucked me in, and I'm thankful for every one of our regulars on this thread and those who only stop by occasionally, each bringing such different knowledge and experience and perspectives to the table. I appreciate every bit of input, even opinions that disagree with mine, forcing me to rethink what I think I know. Because, really, there's so very little about this case that we know for sure.

 

[TooCurious]

Does anyone know if all the oilwell crews were questioned? 9 days, somebody was checking those wells. Maybe not the one the truck was found at but the other wells. They travel those roads to get to the wells, and get deep into the backwoods. Does anyone know if they were questioned? Not as suspects per se but as witnesses.

If it was a local and they were "territorial", or just plain weird, the pumpers may have ran into them. Being it is dealing with oil and gas their records should be kept pretty accurate as to who was working what site and when. Maybe even get names of all locals they had seen at that particular site for background work. It's a place to start if it hasn't been done.

 

[Solitaryone]

As far as what kind of people would or wouldn't be accepted-I'm not really sure that would come into play as they would have "their own space" (and a lot of it) being so sparsely populated.

I truly don't feel that the Jamisons fit the profile for someone who would be targeted for a small town mentality type killing. Maybe a thrill kill though

Thank's for the response, Mitch1. I'm not only asking these questions because I believe a local killed the Jamison's. I'm really curious how the locals take to outsiders, what kind of outsiders they accept or just tolerate, and who they don't.The area and the people who live there, especially on the mountain is something I've been curious about since I first started following the Jamison case.

 

[Solitaryone]

Does anyone know if all the oilwell crews were questioned? 9 days, somebody was checking those wells. Maybe not the one the truck was found at but the other wells. They travel those roads to get to the wells, and get deep into the backwoods. Does anyone know if they were questioned? Not as suspects per se but as witnesses.

If it was a local and they were "territorial", or just plain weird, the pumpers may have ran into them. Being it is dealing with oil and gas their records should be kept pretty accurate as to who was working what site and when. Maybe even get names of all locals they had seen at that particular site for background work. It's a place to start if it hasn't been done.

TooCurious, those are great questions, and excellent suggestions!

 

[OkieGranny]

Everyone here has an opinion. I am one of those people who don't believe that it is inconceivable that the Jamisons could have walked from the truck to the location of the remains. I don't believe that they would have intentionally set out to do it, but I don't believe that they would only have done it if they were forced by someone. Also, I don't believe that they could have made the trip from the truck to the location of their remains before sunset on the day of their disappearance, and unless the Jamisons were out of their minds they would have remained on the roads rather than plow through the woods. The roads are undoubtedly rough and steep in many places, but the presence of cabins, homes, and gas wells scattered all over the mountain suggests that they are navigable by vehicle. If the roads can be used by vehicle, they can be used on foot.

I have already stated my opinion that two healthy adults would have to be tragically inept at surviving outdoors to have died from exposure in this area, but I'm nowhere near ruling out the possibility. I find it as least as significant that the remains were located 140-150 yards from the nearest road as the fact that the remains were located over five miles by road from the truck. Unless they hunkered down on the side of that hill for protection from the elements, it is hard to think of a reason why lost persons in their right mind would stray far from a road where there would be hope that help would eventually pass by – this suggests foul play to me more than the distance from the truck to the remains.

I'm not ruling out exposure or murder. This might change after the ME releases a report or if we get more information on the HRD clues.

Based on everything I've read and everything I've seen, I believe that the Jamisons were murdered and their bodies were dumped at that spot. That's just my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone else's and not necessarily what really happened. It is possible the Jamisons made it across or around the mountain on foot. Stranger things have happened.

We have so little concrete information to work with so, as we work through and evaluate all the various possibilities, I think it's helpful to have the clearest possible understanding of all the factors involved. One of the factors we have to consider in this case is definitely the terrain, and that's why I've made the effort to help us all understand it a little better.

I've been wanting to ask all here their thoughts and opinions on something. My theory is that someone local abducted and killed the Jamison's. I think it's someone(s) who were familiar with the area and who didn't raise curiosity, questions or suspicions from the other residents in the area.

What I've been wondering is, what kind of people from out of the area who moved to this area would be accepted, and what kind of people would not be?

I've read that some who live there are locals to the area, but that some are not. Like DC, was he from that area originally, as in having ties locally? I read his mom was living in California. Did DC come from there too? If so, how would he have even known about this place? Same questions apply to the residents who live there but are from somewhere else. Do those people have ties to the area?

Thanks to anyone who can help to explain!

I agree with Mitch that there's probably enough "buffer zone" between homes on the mountain that it's difficult to imagine someone murdering an entire family just for looking at land. There's probably been several properties bought and sold up there in the four years since the Jamisons disappeared, and yet we don't know of anyone else falling victim to a similar scenario.

I imagine the type of people who would be drawn to live such in a remote area with so few amenities would be those accustomed to country living who value peace and quiet, or maybe some "survivalist" types. Or maybe someone with a tight budget who wants to buy land but can't afford it anywhere else. I think a lot of those buildings up there are probably hunting cabins, vacant most of the year until hunting season.

Someone like the Jamisons, who might have had romantic notions about getting away from it all and living off the grid, would have quickly tired of it, I think. There are no pipes bringing water from a local reservoir, so they might dig a well, but who's going to carry all those buckets of water? It wouldn't have been Bobby, with his bad back. No air conditioning in the brutal Oklahoma summers, using an outhouse in all weathers, chopping wood for cooking and for heat in the winter. Bugs. Snakes. It's a hard way to live.

I don't know a whole lot about DC. I think he had previously lived in the Bristow area when he was married. I remember reading something about him being in California, so maybe he went to stay with his mom for a while after the divorce? I really couldn't say. Apparently he was interviewed and cleared by LE but, just like the handyman KB, we don't know on what basis. Neither one of them has been crossed off my list of suspects, FWIW.

 

[OkieGranny]

Does anyone know if all the oilwell crews were questioned? 9 days, somebody was checking those wells. Maybe not the one the truck was found at but the other wells. They travel those roads to get to the wells, and get deep into the backwoods. Does anyone know if they were questioned? Not as suspects per se but as witnesses.

If it was a local and they were "territorial", or just plain weird, the pumpers may have ran into them. Being it is dealing with oil and gas their records should be kept pretty accurate as to who was working what site and when. Maybe even get names of all locals they had seen at that particular site for background work. It's a place to start if it hasn't been done.

That's a very good question. I don't know the answer, but suspect probably not. I'm not sure all the residents of the mountain were ever questioned either.