OK OK - Lauria Bible, 16, & Ashley Freeman, 16, Welch, 30 December 1999 *ARREST*

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  • #141
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...-95.344849&sspn=1.005561,1.766052&ie=UTF8&z=9

mapofok.jpg


A: Welch Oklahoma (didn't have exact address for Freeman trailer)
B: Twin Bridges State Park where family received tip girls were held for several days
C: Big Bill's Barbecue where LE believes they ate that night
D: Pizza Hut where Lorene says she was told they ate that night
 
  • #142
I also read in one of the linked articles that Jones is believed to have known people who were involved in this crime but either wasn't directly involved himself or was there for part of it but not all. Any thoughts on this? I don't remember seeing it discussed in this thread.

Here in NE OK, Jones is regarded as a compulsive liar and a blowhard. According to his girlfriend at the time, he could not have been at the crime scene by himself as his truck was not running; the timeline would make it almost impossible, too, for Jones to have been at the Freeman trailer by himself or with others.

Conversely, Jones and his meth buddies could have done the crime - he undoubtedly ran with a crowd capable of doing so, and was himself as lowlife as they come. I don't think that's as far-fetched as I once believed it to be, but I'd still give odds of 30.1 against his having any participation, and 15.1 against his knowing who did the Freeman/Bible crimes.
 
  • #143
One last question (for now): Are the girls DNA in codis or whatever it is that they use to match Doe's to the missing?
 
  • #144
Twin Bridges State Park is surrounded by water when I zoom in on google maps. Have they searched the water? Looks like a river or something. I'm not good at geography, maybe someone else can take a look.
 
  • #145
-Was it normal for Lauria to leave her keys in the ignition? This seems weird to me. Also why was her purse left by door? Most girls I know keep their purse with them, myself included.

-Why the dispute over where the Freeman's ate that night with Lauria? Could something have happened at the Bar-b-que place that they didn't want known? Did Lauria talk to her mother that night and tell her where they ate? How did Lorene hear about the one place (sorry can't remember the name now) and why does LE believe that is incorrect and they ate at the bar-b-q place?

-Was Lauria's boyfriend ever poly graphed? How long were they dating for? The diff. times for him leaving is a red flag. Not a big one because people often get times off but still worth questioning?

-The Freeman family members that were over that night, were they poly graphed? Who were they?

-LE planning to frame Danny for the murder by coming back later and disposing of Danny's body doesn't make sense. First they would have moved his body out before the fire and second if they hadn't done that they would surely have secured the crime scene knowing Danny's body was still there and they needed to get it out.

-I don't believe Lauria would have stayed away this long from her family. Ashley seemed to have a troubled home life but not Lauria. If she had agreed at first to run away with her friend I don't believe she would have remained loyal for this long.

-Danny got the worst of it (I'm saying this of course without knowing what happened to Lauria and Ashley). It seems like he was the target. Multiple gunshot wounds and the one to the head essentially blowing it off sounds rage/anger/mad at Danny. His wife was there and needed to be eliminated as she was a witness and the same with the girls (although I believe they were taken and abused first). A second crime of opportunity. O gee let's take these girls and have fun with them first :sick:

-The tip that the family received about the girls being held alive for a few days and than killed. Where did that info. come from? They seemed to think it was reliable. Where was the house (or was it a cabin) that they were supposedly being held at? It seems to reason that their bodies would be located somewhere very near there. Not too many people are going to risk moving one body too far let alone two! Can someone do a google map of the Freeman trailer to the location of this house/cabin please?

* In a rural region, out in the country, it's not unusual for keys to be left in the ignition. That Lauria's purse was left by the door only indicates that the girls were subdued by force and kidnapped.

* Very few investigations are perfect, with every piece in place. The confusion about where they dined is probably an imperfection, not a caveat.

* I believe the boyfriend was polygraphed. Not sure how long they had dated.

* I'm unaware that relatives visited the Freeman trailer that night, although they could have.

* If LE was involved (a big if), the killings might have been done and the arson begun before someone realized, "Whoa! Hey! We can blame it all on Danny!" We aren't dealing with the sharpest tools in the shed here. They may have intended to come back in the morning for his remains due to darkness and the lateness of the hour. Unlikely - though their not finding Danny's body in the first place is unlikely as well. It was right there, and the Bibles found it almost immediately the next morning.

* You're right, Ashley would have been the more likely of the pair to run away, and Lauria, her best friend, conceivably could have accompanied her. But I've taught close relatives of Lauria, and this latter is highly, highly doubtful. There is no indication that either girl was overly troubled. Ashley had a boyfriend; Lauria had plans for the future.

* Danny would have been able to put up the most resistance, perhaps angering the perpetrators. To me, this was either a violent robbery or a revenge killing having either to do with drugs, or a quarrel with LE (or both). Most view the girls's abduction as a crime of opportunity, though they could have been taken to confuse the investigation. (If this was the case, it worked.)

* Specific information about the tip has never been published. Twin Bridges State Park would be about 25 miles from the scene of the crime, a short drive for the kidnappers and one not passing through major population centers, to put it mildly.
 
  • #146
Twin Bridges State Park is surrounded by water when I zoom in on google maps. Have they searched the water? Looks like a river or something. I'm not good at geography, maybe someone else can take a look.

That's Grand Lake o' the Cherokees. If the girls were in the water, chances are they would have surfaced before too many days. Also, that tip was probably given very little credence by LE, as it was just one of many.
 
  • #147
One last question (for now): Are the girls DNA in codis or whatever it is that they use to match Doe's to the missing?

Nope.
 
  • #148
Twin Bridges State Park is surrounded by water when I zoom in on google maps. Have they searched the water? Looks like a river or something. I'm not good at geography, maybe someone else can take a look.

Twin Bridges has been searched, but will be searched again.
 
  • #149
"There were things that they came back and told us that [Jeremy Jones] told them that you had to either have been at the Freeman's when Danny and Kathy were shot and the girls were taken or you had to have first-hand knowledge," [Lorene] Bible says. "He described the actual shotgun, what they were actually shot with. People knew it was one type of shotgun because my husband and I found Danny so we knew it was something close range and it was enough to blow the man's face off. But it had never been released."

from second article, at
http://www.koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11748364

Respectfully BBM

Just a question. How was Danny identified? Seems to me there may be room enough for error that it was someone of his build but not HIM?
Just thinking out loud....

And a comment I came here to read after seeing the link in JLMcKenna83 signature line also.....your plan seems to be working....:>)
 
  • #150
Respectfully BBM

Just a question. How was Danny identified? Seems to me there may be room enough for error that it was someone of his build but not HIM?
Just thinking out loud....

And a comment I came here to read after seeing the link in JLMcKenna83 signature line also.....your plan seems to be working....:>)

Very good question. Not sure if they went to the length of having DNA tested. Perhaps dental charts (if anything was left intact) or....well, around here, LE might have just used the process of elimination: "That there's a body and Danny Freeman lived here." Ergo, "That's ol' Danny Freeman." If there was enough of the body recognizable, his brother probably did the ID-ing; the Bibles seemed certain it was him, so something of the man must have been identifiable.

If, through some colossal mix-up, it was a stranger's body, that leaves weird alternatives: did the perpetrators kill one of their own, leave that body in the bedroom, then kidnap three people? Or did Mr. Freeman go nuts, kill his wife, burn the trailer, and take the girls? If so, how? The vehicles were all accounted for.
 
  • #151
Very good question. Not sure if they went to the length of having DNA tested. Perhaps dental charts (if anything was left intact) or....well, around here, LE might have just used the process of elimination: "That there's a body and Danny Freeman lived here." Ergo, "That's ol' Danny Freeman." If there was enough of the body recognizable, his brother probably did the ID-ing; the Bibles seemed certain it was him, so something of the man must have been identifiable.

If, through some colossal mix-up, it was a stranger's body, that leaves weird alternatives: did the perpetrators kill one of their own, leave that body in the bedroom, then kidnap three people? Or did Mr. Freeman go nuts, kill his wife, burn the trailer, and take the girls? If so, how? The vehicles were all accounted for.

Close your eyes for a moment and go there with me.....
"UID Drugy Dude" goes to the Freeman's to collect (whatever)....Freeman goes nut's kills "UID Drugy Dude", his wife, sets the fire, takes the girls in "UID Drugy Dudes" car.
I know it's out there but, there seem to be so many strange things in this case.
 
  • #152
Close your eyes for a moment and go there with me.....
"UID Drugy Dude" goes to the Freeman's to collect (whatever)....Freeman goes nut's kills "UID Drugy Dude", his wife, sets the fire, takes the girls in "UID Drugy Dudes" car.
I know it's out there but, there seem to be so many strange things in this case.

Or Meth-head Marky, accompanied by Meth-impaired Marvin, intent upon stealing Mr. Freeman's arrowhead collection for re-sale, decides to cut his losses and gain all of the money by killing his unwitting compadre and, intent upon (stick with me) perhaps a promise of cash-machine money from one of the victims, takes three people alive instead of two. I guess this scenario would play better if we also imagined a Meth-brain Michael, as three people would be hard to control by one person. So Mike & Mark decide to split the proceeds. Marvin is left to become unrecognizable in the flames.

But a meth-user's m.o. would more likely be "kill 'em all." Which leads us back to why the girls were taken - a dangerous element of the crime, considering what might go wrong. But if the culprits were truly meth-abusers, that wouldn't stop them.

All of this leads me back to Jeremy B. Jones. Although I still have grave doubts that he's other than a late-starting killer looking back on the crimes he would like to have committed, he certainly was involved with fellow bad company when living here in NE OK. (I do think his claim to have been the killer of Jennifer Judd in Baxter Springs KS is...well, almost likely - more-so than the Freeman/Bible crimes.)
 
  • #153
Respectfully BBM

Just a question. How was Danny identified? Seems to me there may be room enough for error that it was someone of his build but not HIM?
Just thinking out loud....

And a comment I came here to read after seeing the link in JLMcKenna83 signature line also.....your plan seems to be working....:>)

Glad the link idea is working, we need some activity here. ;)
I believe Danny was able to be visually ID'd although I don't have confirmation of who did it. If I had to guess, I would say LE reporting to the scene did a visual ID. No autopsy report anywhere that I can find.

Also: ETA to above post- Lauria has additional DNA available. Both have dental. Just not entered yet.
 
  • #154
* In a rural region, out in the country, it's not unusual for keys to be left in the ignition. That Lauria's purse was left by the door only indicates that the girls were subdued by force and kidnapped.

* Very few investigations are perfect, with every piece in place. The confusion about where they dined is probably an imperfection, not a caveat.

* I believe the boyfriend was polygraphed. Not sure how long they had dated.

* I'm unaware that relatives visited the Freeman trailer that night, although they could have.

* If LE was involved (a big if), the killings might have been done and the arson begun before someone realized, "Whoa! Hey! We can blame it all on Danny!" We aren't dealing with the sharpest tools in the shed here. They may have intended to come back in the morning for his remains due to darkness and the lateness of the hour. Unlikely - though their not finding Danny's body in the first place is unlikely as well. It was right there, and the Bibles found it almost immediately the next morning.

* You're right, Ashley would have been the more likely of the pair to run away, and Lauria, her best friend, conceivably could have accompanied her. But I've taught close relatives of Lauria, and this latter is highly, highly doubtful. There is no indication that either girl was overly troubled. Ashley had a boyfriend; Lauria had plans for the future.

* Danny would have been able to put up the most resistance, perhaps angering the perpetrators. To me, this was either a violent robbery or a revenge killing having either to do with drugs, or a quarrel with LE (or both). Most view the girls's abduction as a crime of opportunity, though they could have been taken to confuse the investigation. (If this was the case, it worked.)

* Specific information about the tip has never been published. Twin Bridges State Park would be about 25 miles from the scene of the crime, a short drive for the kidnappers and one not passing through major population centers, to put it mildly.

BBM: I believe it was stated on the unsolved mysteries segment someone posted on this thread from youtube. I'm not 100% sure though since I was reading lots of articles at the same time. I think it was from that segment though. They were there and said the boyfriend left around 10:30 pm but the boyfriend said it was 9:30 pm.
 
  • #155
Glad the link idea is working, we need some activity here. ;)
I believe Danny was able to be visually ID'd although I don't have confirmation of who did it. If I had to guess, I would say LE reporting to the scene did a visual ID. No autopsy report anywhere that I can find.

Also: ETA to above post- Lauria has additional DNA available. Both have dental. Just not entered yet.

Has anyone tried matching Does to Lauria or Ashley? That is one thing I cannot do. I tried looking at Does and their reconstructions when I first started posting and reading here but they gave me nightmares. Fairy1 or something close to that is an amazing poster here who looks into matching Does. Maybe we should pm her?
 
  • #156
BBM: I believe it was stated on the unsolved mysteries segment someone posted on this thread from youtube. I'm not 100% sure though since I was reading lots of articles at the same time. I think it was from that segment though. They were there and said the boyfriend left around 10:30 pm but the boyfriend said it was 9:30 pm.

No, wasn't the Unsolved Mysteries episode. Just re-watched it. I've never heard rumors around here that any other than the Freemans, the boyfriend, and Lauria were at the trailer for the party.
 
  • #157
Could this be a crime like Joseph Duncan III committed against the Grone family? Or the Short family? It seems like it is rare that all the adults or older children are killed and the children are taken? That is the only thing that makes sense to me as what could have happened here.
 
  • #158
Has anyone tried matching Does to Lauria or Ashley? That is one thing I cannot do. I tried looking at Does and their reconstructions when I first started posting and reading here but they gave me nightmares. Fairy1 or something close to that is an amazing poster here who looks into matching Does. Maybe we should pm her?

We've looked at a lot of Does in the surrounding areas. No hits so far. I do not know Fairy1 but we need all the help we can get!
 
  • #159
Could this be a crime like Joseph Duncan III committed against the Grone family? Or the Short family? It seems like it is rare that all the adults or older children are killed and the children are taken? That is the only thing that makes sense to me as what could have happened here.

I think a LOT of things are possible in this case- and it definately is rare for entire families to go poof. Although it would appear to be not as rare in OK. ;)
 
  • #160
Updating on search efforts- Oriah et all got called out of OK on another situation in another state so it will be a few before they get back with any news.
In the meantime, lets keep up the sleuthing!
 
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