Omaha Double Murder #2

[YellowDog]

The more I think about this crime, the more I think the killer was someone known to both victims and they were killed to avoid identification. I'm currently leaning toward whoever committed the robberies earlier in the neighborhood. I'm thinking of someone on foot who lives in the vicinity, perhaps an older teen familiar with the house.

Bern, I too have questioned whether the neighbors actually saw the man dressed in the suit go into the house and even the SUV with the out of state license plates.

I'm visualizing a robber entering the back door thinking the house was empty and meeting face to face with Shirlee first. She recognizes him and confronts him. He kills her and then realizes Tom is also in the house, kills him and leaves in a panic through the same door in which he entered. Robbers don't usually enter through the front door in view of the neighbors. They are more stealthy than that.

 

[Snick1946]

The more I think about this crime, the more I think the killer was someone known to both victims and they were killed to avoid identification. I'm currently leaning toward whoever committed the robberies earlier in the neighborhood. I'm thinking of someone on foot who lives in the vicinity, perhaps an older teen familiar with the house.

Bern, I too have questioned whether the neighbors actually saw the man dressed in the suit go into the house and even the SUV with the out of state license plates.

I'm visualizing a robber entering the back door thinking the house was empty and meeting face to face with Shirlee first. She recognizes him and confronts him. He kills her and then realizes Tom is also in the house, kills him and leaves in a panic through the same door in which he entered. Robbers don't usually enter through the front door in view of the neighbors. They are more stealthy than that.

One thing that sticks in my mind is that Shirlee's car would not have been visable from the street. She parked on a concrete slab behind the house while working there. So an intruder might not have realized anyone else was there.
I have for a long time felt that the POI seen walking in the area may not have had anything to do with the murders. He may have been afraid to contact police afterwards to clear that up.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

~respectfully snipped from Snicks post# 248, thread one~

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=10

two cases are unrelated. Strange.
Hang on a minute?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/42191447.html

Family of the two recent victims are questioning the murder suicide. Someone broke into the house Monday and stole some stuff.

This article verifies robberies in the area. I am not sure how close in proximity to the Hunter home that this happened. Any ideas?

Could there be a rogue 'group'/gang of petty theives, 2 to 3 people, casing the neighborhood and targeting/burglarizing homes of Drs? ( I included 'gang' because I read up on the Bird Rock Bandits in CA and learned that a gang is considered to be 3 or more people who terrorize a community in the State of CA, but don't know about NE)

So what if this was a group of 'neighborhood' thugs but not necessarily from the Dundee neighborhood but another one nearby, yet they had friends in the Dundee area?

I must say it is pretty ballsy to rob a home where a 'murder/suicide' had occured the day before.

Does anyone know if there is a regular police presence in the Dundee area? I know in my town there isn't much popo patrol in the higher class neighborhoods...police presence is mostly in the high crime areas of town. Perhaps this is what the perp(s) was counting on.

wm

ok back to home remodeling project now.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I have a really stupid question. Are we sure that neighbors actually saw the man dressed in the suit go into the house? If so, how long was he there? Because, WM you are so correct when you say, "who wears a suit to a murder with knives being used?" No one. Was there blood all around the floor and did he walk in it and trail it outside to the entry way of the front door and out to the car? Do we know? This was a messy crime scene. He would have been covered in blood and how did he exit that no one saw a blood soaked man leaving the home? How did he know who was home and he wouldn't get interrupted by a person coming home from work? Or a mail delivery? It was an isolated crime, of random occurrence? No, I think not.

Bern, There is no such thing as a stupid question! I too have wondered if there were any bloody footprints tracked about the house but I guess only OPD would know that. It seems like it would be difficult to not leave evidence with this type of bloodgeoning. Would OPD have checked things in the home such as drains and faucets for forensic evidence, just in case the killer washed up before departing? So many questions and not enough answers.

wm

 

[YellowDog]

WM, I've wondered about the murder/suicide you mentioned. It seems highly strange to me and I was never convinced when reading about it in the past that it was a murder/suicide.

I like your thinking about a group of thieves targeting Doctors.

 

[Skully]

Another thing I think about is, you are there to let's say rob the place, so today it is not unheard of to do it in daylight hours cause people are working, but you don't ring the doorbell if you don't think they are home. You go in a back door, so let's go with they are stupid. Now once inside, you have two people in two different locations, and you have to kill them now.... Okay, now they didn't bring a weapon, so he had to go see if one was in the kitchen and lo and behold there was a couple of knives, and these were big enough and strong enough to do the job. Now, I have knives, but I have to tell ya, they are just not for killing people, not in this manner. If the meat ain't tender the knife ain't cutting it. So maybe being doctor's they had sharp knives and the killer had time to run and get a couple, and manage to kill the person who answered the door, at the door or did he excuse himself and get them from the kitchen and run back and kill her and then hunt down the kid. Not a lot of sense her folks. I try to be the killer and see how I would do this and then walk out, get into a waiting car, and drive off. I can't. So maybe the killer was in the house, maybe the killer never rang the doorbell. Maybe those guys were selling religion and left, and the killer was in the house, telling them to keep quite or waiting....

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I see what you're saying Bern. But even if the killer left the residence from another door beside the front, wouldn't it make sense that there would be some footprints around the entrance the perp used to enter the home?

I have heard different accounts of the crime scene.....all unconfirmed. The accounts range from the crime scene being a bloodbath.....to the stabbings being clean and the victims cartoid arteries slashed for a quick clean death. (sorry so graphic)

Either way, it is hard to believe that no blood tracks were found at the crime scene, and there has been nothing in the media which points to such a thing.

I wonder if the perp had some of the surgical shoe covers like doctors wear? these could probably be purchased easily on the internet although I don't have any first hand knowledge of such a thing but could check it out.

I'm just thinking, and this is just a theory, that maybe homes of Doctors were being targeted in the area to create a 'crisis' so that the burglars could move in after the fact. Except the Hunters didn't freak out and vacate the property. Makes me wonder if Shirlee was indeed mistaken for Mrs.Dr. Hunter.

Like Yellow Dog stated in above post....I am not at all convinced the Anderson's death was a Murder/suicide. IIRC, there was a doctor at Creighton with the same name as Dr. Anderson in the Murder/suicide. Someone please correct me if i am wrong as I dont' have the time to go back and look for a link right now. The details should be on page 10of thread one tho.

wm

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Oh, one last thing I want to ask and then I am logging off, I promise.

Do any of our Omaha posters still have telephone directories from 2008? It would be interesting to know if both the Hunter's and Anderson's were listed as Dr.

Wouldn't it be something if it were so simple as someone targeting Dr's from their listings in the phone directory.

I am trying to stick to the K.I.S.S. theory. (Keep It Simple Stupid) Any Thoughts?

ok I am REALLY loggin off now...later...

wm

 

[annemc2]

IME (my dad and DH are both physicians), doctors don't usually have any prefix in front of their names in the phone book. Lots of times, the telephone numbers are unlisted. Growing up, our address was available (IIRC) but phone number wasn't published. Right now we're listed but without any "Dr" title. This doesn't rule out someone targeting physicians in some sort of hospital directory and then sleuthing out their home address. That wouldn't be too hard to do.

I was thinking about the shoe coverings - those would be really easy to come across. It looks like they are available for purchase at hardware stores and online. I actually saw them a lot when we were house-hunting. (That may be more area-specific, though - we're in the PNW where tons of people remove shoes before entering the house b/c it's so rainy).

Regarding the bloodbath vs. carotid artery scene: I'm pretty sure cutting any kind of artery would also create a bloodbath, as the arteries squirt like geysers when cut. ((sorry to be so graphic)) But yeah, very strange that there would be no finger/foot prints coming from a scene where a knife was used.

 

[Skully]

IME (my dad and DH are both physicians), doctors don't usually have any prefix in front of their names in the phone book. Lots of times, the telephone numbers are unlisted. Growing up, our address was available (IIRC) but phone number wasn't published. Right now we're listed but without any "Dr" title. This doesn't rule out someone targeting physicians in some sort of hospital directory and then sleuthing out their home address. That wouldn't be too hard to do.

I was thinking about the shoe coverings - those would be really easy to come across. It looks like they are available for purchase at hardware stores and online. I actually saw them a lot when we were house-hunting. (That may be more area-specific, though - we're in the PNW where tons of people remove shoes before entering the house b/c it's so rainy).

Regarding the bloodbath vs. carotid artery scene: I'm pretty sure cutting any kind of artery would also create a bloodbath, as the arteries squirt like geysers when cut. ((sorry to be so graphic)) But yeah, very strange that there would be no finger/foot prints coming from a scene where a knife was used.

So this fits with the person knowing that no one was coming home, and he had lots of time to kill these two and then clean up himself and leave. The wife was out of town, so someone knew that. My list is short.

 

[po boy]

Bern posted....."Another thing I think about is, you are there to let's say rob the place, so today it is not unheard of to do it in daylight hours cause people are working, but you don't ring the doorbell if you don't think they are home. You go in a back door, so let's go with they are stupid. Now once inside, you have two people in two different locations, and you have to kill them now.... Okay, now they didn't bring a weapon, so he had to go see if one was in the kitchen and lo and behold there was a couple of knives, and these were big enough and strong enough to do the job. Now, I have knives, but I have to tell ya, they are just not for killing people, not in this manner. If the meat ain't tender the knife ain't cutting it. So maybe being doctor's they had sharp knives and the killer had time to run and get a couple, and manage to kill the person who answered the door, at the door or did he excuse himself and get them from the kitchen and run back and kill her and then hunt down the kid. Not a lot of sense her folks. I try to be the killer and see how I would do this and then walk out, get into a waiting car, and drive off. I can't. So maybe the killer was in the house, maybe the killer never rang the doorbell. Maybe those guys were selling religion and left, and the killer was in the house, telling them to keep quite or waiting..."


GOOD POINT BERN. REMEMBER, DR WILLIAM HUNTER IS A PATHOLOGIST, WITH LOTS OF SHARP KNIVES, LOTS OF LONG, SHARP KNIVES, AND LOTS OF UTENSILS TO SHARPEN KNIVES. AND 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE CUTTING BODIES OPEN WITHOUT GETTING ANY BLOOD ON HIMSELF.

WHAT IS MORE, HE HAS LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO ARE FORENSIC PATHOLOGISTS, BOTH IN OMAHA AND OTHER AREAS, WITH SIMILAR ABILITIES.

MAKES YA GO HMMMMMMMMMMMMM, DOESN'T IT?

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I just had a quick thought to share.

If there was a person hidden inside the home and Tom and Shirlee maybe knew or recognized this person so he killed them with knives. He would have probably had some blood on his clothing. So, what if the olive skinned man was called there by the perp to bring a change of clothes? Then they leave separately. Olive leaves thru the front door and killer leaves thru the back and climbs a fence or something.

Maybe it was neither Tom nor Shirlee who answered the door, but the killer.

So many 'what ifs'...

MOO

wm

OT Hope you all have a safe and happy Independence Day!

 

[Snick1946]

My best wishes to all on this thread for a safe and happy Fourth. Last evening I took my son to the fireworks display at Memorial Park here in Omaha. He is almost exactly Tom Hunter's age. I couldn't help thinking as I watched him enjoying the fireworks- 'God, I wish they'd get this ..' I cannot imagine losing him, and the Hunters must still be suffering. Shirlee's family as well.
This may have been posted earlier onthe other thread but here's a link to a 2-09 story on KETV that has some pics of Tom and details from a news interview with Dr Hunter.

http://www.ketv.com/news/18726316/detail.html

Welcome back, PoBoy- your comments are very thought provoking.

 

[skywalker]

Dr. Hunter is the kind of pathologist who looks at slides under a microscope.

Source: http://medschool.creighton.edu/gme/programs/pathology/facultyandstaff/hunter/index.php

 

[po boy]

skywalker,

All pathologists look under microscopes. Dr. Hunter is a general pathologist also with special experience/aptitude in forensic pathology.

what is more he knows many, many other forensic pathologists.

Sometimes I wonder if he had a dispute with one, perhaps set them off, and they did this horrible act in retaliation. It just seems to me that this should be looked into.

Someone like this (forensic pathologist) would clearly have the skills, tools (knives), and precise anatomic knowledge (i.e. precisely transecting carotid artery) to do this cleanly and get away with it for this long. Makes me feel sick.

I just hope this possibility is being looked into. God bless the Hunters.

 

[skywalker]

My apologies. I oversimplified by saying that Dr. Hunter is the kind of pathologist who looks at slides under a microscope.

I should have stated that his lectures, specialties and research indicate that his work focuses on examining tissue at the cellular and molecular level.

po boy states:
Dr. Hunter is a general pathologist also with special experience/aptitude in forensic pathology.

I humbly disagree. That's not what his curriculum vitae says.

 

[po boy]

Dr Hunter is an all around fantastic and respected pathologist. He can do clinical pathology, anatomic pathology (including autopsy, both medical and forensics cases, and surgical pathology and cytology), blood bank (he's boarded in blood bank), etc. He's very good and knowledgeable.

He also has personal special interest in forensics. He's not boarded in forensics as far as I know, but he's done a TON of forensics cases in his career, like most pathologists his age.

This is a fact as the day is long and the sky is blue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[skywalker]

I yield to your personal knowledge and familiarity with Dr. Hunter.

I did not mean to offend. My apologies.

 

[Snick1946]

I yield to your personal knowledge and familiarity with Dr. Hunter.

I did not mean to offend. My apologies.

Skywalker, we welcome your contributions and hope that you will continue to share your opinions. Despite this being a two plus year old crime, feelings often run high and sometimes all of us can get a little opinionated, when defending what we believe to be the right ideas.

I think the point being made was that Dr Hunter's collegues and associates might be a good place to look for possible motives and for the person behind these killings. Since this would of course mean that staff and students at Creighton might fall under suspicion. I do think that LE has been and possibly still is relunctant to go there. It is my understanding that staff at Creighton were told after the killings not to discuss anything with LE unless it was cleared by the school. Probably this was well intentioned but leads me at least to wonder if facts might have been covered up. JMO.

 

[po boy]

No offense at all skywalker. I, like you and so many others, just want to see this case solved!

I Diddo what Snick said.

I'm sure LE is ruling out or has already ruled out old acquantances/co-employees of Dr. Hunter's.