OR - Angelica Swartout charged in death of newborn, Springfield, 18 Oct 2010

  • #81
Angelica does not have a twin, as far as I've ever seen reported. I think you saw a comment by Soulmagent in Post #63, where she commented:

"...It also sounds like 1st degree. (unless there is no baby and that photo is of a twin sister who was pregnant which I doubt)..."
 
  • #82
This woman might have not had a false pregnancy, just pretending to be pregnant to get attention. There is no body and as far as I can tell no physical evidence this woman was actually pregnant in real life, as opposed to her imagination.
 
  • #83
Angelica worked so I doubt that she received a medical card--unless she gets SSI for some form of disability. Our daughter gets SSI and works 10 hours each week at a pizza restaurant, refilling water pitchers and sugar shakers. If she didn't have a medical card and worked at minimum wage, she would automatically qualify for a card during her pregnancy. This was enacted to make certain all pregnant women have access to prenatal care. She might have lied to her sisters about going to the doctor but one would think that she might have seen a doctor at least once.....unless she was using and didn't want that to show up in her blood tests.

I haven't finished reading the whole thread, but I did want to point out that a woman can still go to the doctor, receive her ultrasounds, get her prenatal checks, get her vitamins and so on and so forth, and simply pass on the blood work. I have repeatedly with my pregnancies, refused to have my blood drawn, but I've still had all the other forms of prenatal care and testing. (Every time I have blood drawn, my veins blow, and I can't work with huge bruises on my arms. I have blood work done only after I've had to take off work anyway for the pregnancy.) So, really, she had nothing to fear in that respect, the only thing she would have had to fear is the finding that there were no pregnancy hormones in her blood.

WIth all the research she did on still birth and related issues, one would think she could have researched drug testing during pregnancy just as easily.
 
  • #84
I haven't finished reading the whole thread, but I did want to point out that a woman can still go to the doctor, receive her ultrasounds, get her prenatal checks, get her vitamins and so on and so forth, and simply pass on the blood work. I have repeatedly with my pregnancies, refused to have my blood drawn, but I've still had all the other forms of prenatal care and testing. (Every time I have blood drawn, my veins blow, and I can't work with huge bruises on my arms. I have blood work done only after I've had to take off work anyway for the pregnancy.) So, really, she had nothing to fear in that respect, the only thing she would have had to fear is the finding that there were no pregnancy hormones in her blood.

WIth all the research she did on still birth and related issues, one would think she could have researched drug testing during pregnancy just as easily.
If she was not pregnant, her ultrasounds would show that she was not, so what would be the point?
 
  • #85
ANother thing that I learned researching Doe cases, the doctors can tell, even after a year, and even if there was no birthing trauma, whether a woman has ever given birth. Stretch marks, hip displasia, cervical trauma...these things do not go away. Stretch marks can be blamed on rapid weight loss or gain, and hip displasia can be blamed on a physical trauma, but the chances are very good that a cervical exam was conducted, and there are very few things that mimic the cervical changes that occur and remain when a woman has a child. Sometimes it is difficult to tell, but the signs are there. If the state says she was pregnant, they likely have rock solid physical proof. JMO.

As for the lack of blood in the room where she supposedly delivered, she could have piled dirty sheets under her to absorb the blood, and tossed them into the dumpster with the baby. The baby wasn't found, it's reasonable to believe that the sheets wouldn't be either.

Or she was never really pregnant...I think a large question here is did anyone ever see her nude during the time that she was supposedly pregnant? Or was it always clothed? It's very easy to order a fake pregnancy belly online and have it delivered somewhere besides your home. They even make models that can simulate kicking sensations, to where someone touching your belly under a shirt would have no idea that they were touching silicone and the kicking was fake.
 
  • #86
If she was not pregnant, her ultrasounds would show that she was not, so what would be the point?

Yes, if she wasn't pregnant. I was referring to the drug testing aspect if she had been pregnant.
 
  • #87
We've all heard "no body, no case." In this case, not only there is no body, but with what I have seen so far, I am not even sure there ever was a body. Pregnant women who kill their newborns usually don't advertise the fact that they are pregnant. Whereas this one was telling people she was pregnant.
 
  • #88
We've all heard "no body, no case." In this case, not only there is no body, but with what I have seen so far, I am not even sure there ever was a body.

I agree. I'm not saying that there ever was a baby to begin with...like I pointed out, yes, she looks pregnant in that photo that was posted a couple pages back...but that doesn't mean she was. There are some very sophisticated fake pregnancy bellies out there, and most people don't even know how convincing the fakes can be unless they happen to be looking for one for a purpose like this.
 
  • #89
snipped

Or she was never really pregnant...I think a large question here is did anyone ever see her nude during the time that she was supposedly pregnant? Or was it always clothed? It's very easy to order a fake pregnancy belly online and have it delivered somewhere besides your home. They even make models that can simulate kicking sensations, to where someone touching your belly under a shirt would have no idea that they were touching silicone and the kicking was fake.[/QUOTE]

BBM

Are you serious! :floorlaugh:
Are these the things they use at men's baby showers as jokes? I need to get one for my son. He's going to be Daddy!
 
  • #90
Angelica worked so I doubt that she received a medical card--unless she gets SSI for some form of disability. Our daughter gets SSI and works 10 hours each week at a pizza restaurant, refilling water pitchers and sugar shakers. If she didn't have a medical card and worked at minimum wage, she would automatically qualify for a card during her pregnancy. This was enacted to make certain all pregnant women have access to prenatal care. She might have lied to her sisters about going to the doctor but one would think that she might have seen a doctor at least once.....unless she was using and didn't want that to show up in her blood tests.

There is a federal program that gives medical care to pregnant women and children under 18. Because the income standards are higher people can be working and still be eligible. In Ohio it is called Healthy Start. A person making minimum wage or even a little over would still be eligible.

Healthy Start covers the woman during the pregnancy and I think about a month after the pregnancy. The child is covered until the age of 18, as long as the income remains under the guidelines.
 
  • #91
I've been reading here off and on, just finished catching up. Let me throw out a totally of-the-wall theory - just an idea I have, no factual basis for anyone to take and run with.

Suppose, just suppose, this was all a "test". Perhaps this young woman couldn't quite believe anyone really cared for her the way bio familys are thought to feel/care. Suppose she wanted to "test" what they would do/say if she was pregnant? Would they still love her? It seems they did, but maybe that wasn't enough, and many times it might not be. Now, suppose she wanted the ultimate "test"? Suppose she made up the part about killing the baby? Would they still love her? I know this sounds "way out", but sometimes there isn't enough love in the world to fill the gaping hole left by a bad childhood, and the tests go on and on until, eventually, the family does fail and your feelings of being unwanted, unloved, are vindicated and the hole in your soul is still there and that's what you really wanted because it's what's familiar to you, the known, the expected. Just a theory folks, a strange idea.

My next strange idea is - WHY hasn't she been thoroughly examined by a OB/GYN to prove whether or not she ever gave birth in the first place?
 
  • #92
That's my most pressing question too, Trident. You don't get to choose whether they test your hands for gun residue, do you? Why would they not have an OB/GYN have a look at this young woman. She lives within a few miles of excellent services through the Oregon Health and Sciences University. It would sure cut short a lot of heartache if it was determined to be a ruse. And then she could get the psychological help she desperately needs.

I found this:

http://www.registerguard.com/web/updates/27013748-46/swartout-police-defense-birth-dec.html.csp

Lawyers seek to suppress statement
Defense attorneys say their client confessed under illegal pressure from Springfield police


"Lawyers for a Springfield murder suspect asked a judge on Tuesday to prevent jurors from hearing her statement to police that she delivered and then suffocated a baby boy last Oct. 18. Fifteen investigators searched a local landfill for three days but found no infant’s body. Nor does the state have any other physical evidence that Angelica May Swartout gave birth to a son in a restroom at her hotel workplace, as she told detectives during two days of questioning in December, her attorneys argued. They say she falsely confessed under pressure from police and never gave birth...."

and

"...Swartout did not know she was free to end a police interview in a private office behind the front desk where she worked at the Crosslands motel, [Defense attorney] Oldencamp said. Detectives pressed Swartout with questions designed to “elicit incriminating answers” without advising her of her right to remain silent and to have a lawyer present..."

and

"....Springfield police Sgt. David Lewis told [Judge] Chanti that Swartout first told him on Dec. 7 that she’d miscarried a 7½-month fetus into a toilet at work. When he questioned a fetus of that age fitting down a toilet, she began to cry and said she’d delivered a stillborn, full-term son, Lewis said. She said she’d wrapped the child’s body in a sheet and put it in a trash bin. Lane argued in court that detectives didn’t need to advise Swartout of her rights before questioning her that night because they did not yet have reasonable suspicion that a crime had occurred.

and

"....Oldencamp also asserted that an Oregon State Police detective violated polygraph protocols on Dec. 8 by giving Swartout a lie detector test when she reportedly was sleep-deprived, hadn’t eaten since the previous day, had smoked “a lot of pot” that morning and was weeping throughout the examination...."

and

"...In a tape-recorded interview later that day, a sobbing Swartout said she delivered a live child who “squeaked a little bit” and “gave a little gasp but he did not cry” before she suffocated him with a sheet. Chanti did not rule immediately on the motion to suppress the confession, saying she wanted to take more time to review evidence presented by both sides...."

Lots more at link


If Swartout elicited an outpouring of love from her siblings when she discovered herself pregnant, why not continue the ruse and describe a miscarriage or an adoption? Either action would have brought her the empathy she seems to crave. Why kill a child or even admit to killing a child as that would alienate her family and land her in prison? Killing a child in the midst of one of Oregon's largest adoptive families. That's quite the statement. I happen to know Judge Chanti through a common friend. She's a new judge but highly respected and very reasoned in her decisions.

You have to wonder just how much psychological support this woman has gotten in lock-up. I keep thinking that a trained and caring professional could engage with her and get to the truth. They mention her smoking a lot of pot on the morning of her interview. Any possibility that she's frequently high and has some memory problems?
 
  • #93
They are correct in saying that she had no right to be Mirandized at the time that she confessed. She wasn't under arrest yet, and, as they stated above, she had the opportunity and the right to leave at any time.

I don't know how they are pressing forward with this, unless they already know, somehow, that she really did give birth. This case is frightening to me, very frightening, because in essence, they are charging a woman with the murder of a person that no one seems to be quite sure ever existed in the first place. If there was a baby, as I've stated before, I hope and pray that she is punished, but what kind of a precedent is being set here if she is just mentally ill and there was never a baby?
 
  • #94
I agree with what you're saying NMK, recently a high schooler was selling basil in baggies, and was telling people it was Weed, he was still charged with selling drugs even though there really was no drugs....
I know murder is a different circumstance, just thought I'd throw the drug story out there....
 
  • #95
Almost missed this:

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2012/02/eugene_woman_accused_of_killin.html

Eugene woman accused of killing baby says she lied, never gave birth
February 1, 2012

"A Springfield woman accused of killing her newborn son took the stand to testify that her pregnancy was a charade and she confessed to the crime to avoid exposing the lie. Angelica Swartout testified Tuesday that she wore baggy fleece all summer long in 2010. She demonstrated from the witness stand how she pushed out her belly to fake a pregnancy that was bringing her attention from her family. The 24-year-old hotel clerk is accused of smothering the child in an employee bathroom and putting the remains in a garbage can. No body has been found.

Swartout testified that she went along with police during questioning in which she tearfully confessed to delivering and smothering the baby, the Eugene Register-Guard reported. Otherwise, she said, she'd have to tell her family she had lied about the pregnancy....."

more at link



Photo here:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ore-woman-accused-killing-baby-lied-15491423#.TyoMbWBqIlc
 
  • #96
  • #97
Still deliberating.....

http://www.registerguard.com/web/updates/27574960-55/jury-swartout-trial-verdict-harcleroad.html.csp

No word yet from jurors in Swartout murder trial
February 6, 2012

"A Lane County jury deliberated for a second full day Monday but reached no verdict in the aggravated murder trial of Angelica Swartout. That does not mean the panel of four men and eight women is hopelessly deadlocked and a hung jury is imminent, according to former Lane County District Attorney Doug Harcle road. A conviction requires a unanimous vote of the 12-member panel, while an acquittal requires only a 10-2 verdict. Anything else is a hung jury.

“My Monday morning quarter back opinion is that 2 1/2 days of deliberation is not particularly long” in such a case, said Harcleroad..."

more at link
 
  • #98
Thanks, Missy for keeping us updated on this. It is hard for me to know whether she really gave birth and murdered her baby or whether she made everything up.

Can't a doctor's examination tell if a woman has given birth?

I know of autopsy reports that stated that the woman had given birth at some time. Of course, I don't know what they did to determine the birth. Maybe it is different with a living woman.
 
  • #99
There was this testimony at the beginning of the trial:

http://projects.registerguard.com/w...swartout-angelica-sister-birth-child.html.csp

Swartout trial begins
January 24, 2012

"A recent doctor’s exam showed signs that alleged child-killer Angelica “Angie” Swartout experienced a full-term pregnancy and childbirth, Deputy Lane County District Attorney Bob Lane told a jury in opening statements at her aggravated murder trial. That exam, obtained last month with a warrant to search Swartout’s body, showed a vertical line of darkened skin on her lower belly — a phenomenon of advanced pregnancy — and cervical changes consistent with having pushed out a baby, Lane told jurors...."

more at link
 
  • #100

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