OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #12

[Ms Suzanne]

Well, one article I read said searchers on horseback (yesterday or day before) were going north on Sauvie Island Road, which would take them right through the wildlife area. I don't know what you mean by "park like setting" as Sauvie Island is pretty much all rural. Do you mean something with children's playground equipment like a neighborhood park or something more densely overgrown like a forest? I would say Sauvie Island is more meadow like, with farmland and some marshy areas, and some trees, too, but it's not heavily forested. I was actually surprised by the photo someone posted of it, showing a big hill with lots of evergreens on it. I don't recognize that view as being from the island, though I must admit I haven't been to the upper north end of the island (by sturgeon lake). That would be the area furthest away from the bridge, far from the areas LE are reportedly searching.

Thank you.That's what I wanted to know.

 

[Tori2]

I tried it, just got a white screen

Just tried it and it's up.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I'm posting thoughts about topics I've read while catching up. Here is my knowledge and thoughts on the Science Fair. This is based on the county school system in which I worked.

The School science fair was judged based on grade levels. Ours were K-1, 2-3, 4-5 with 1st, 2nd and 3rd places awarded from each group. The judging was done the morning the children brought them in and the judges would be meandering about looking at the projects and discussing them quietly amongst themselves. But not so quietly as one couldn't overhear some of the comments and discussion. The winners would be announced later in the day and those winners projects advanced to the 'County wide' Science Fair, which featured the winners from the individual schools.

The parents of the students do a great deal of work in helping their child with their project. (Personally, I received a 100% on my son's Spanish project, LOL!) The teachers know this but it is also what the child learns during the process. The judges in our fair listened as each participant explained their project to access their knowledge. So regardless of how 'slick' the project appears,( with help from Mom or Dad) the student's verbal knowledge in the presentation is important.

Some of the parents are very competitive and do project or live vicariously through their child.

Does anyone know if Kyron's project won or placed? Were the SF winners announced at School the day Kyron went missing?

TIA

wm

 

[angelmom]

Kyron is the step son of a LEO, he knows stranger danger and he has been drilled not to go with people he doesn't know. So in my mind, if he went with someone, he knew the person well enough to maybe step outside with them or help get something from a car, some lure to get him out to a place to take him. This person would not have stuck out that day. He would have a reason to be there, he wouldn't have been a regular or he wouldn't have a alibi of where he was during this time frame, so I think a visitor, or dropping things off or even a parent of another child; someone Kyron knew well enough to go with, for just a second. This person would be around kids, someone kids trusted and he is friendly. He has no record that anyone knows about. He may work with kids. But he will have a solid alibi for those hours or he won't even be questioned because he was flying under the radar that day. Many people knew about the events and that kids would be milling around and this was an opportunity to take a chance. Kyron wouldn't wonder off, I really don't believe that. He was on his way down that hall to a class room. JMO

I know we all want to believe that, but I have seen for my own eyes how easy it is for a child to be lured away. Luckily what I saw was totally innocent, but my cousin's DH is a K9 officer. They came to visit us one summer and hadn't been in the door an hour when my mom's next door neighbor and friend came by. She said to my cousin's DD5, "I have heard so much about you! I hear we're going to have a tea party while you're here. Would you like to come see my fish pond?"

And her DD got up, took the woman's hand (whom she had never met) and started to walk out. I thought her father's (the LEO) head was going to explode. He looked like he didn't know whether to yell at her or break down crying.

It was terrifying, and I didn't even have kids yet. I have talked to my kids about it, but I would never say never about a child being lured. They just don't have that kind of judgment. Hell, there are adults who don't have that kind of judgment!

 

[defender123]

I hope they are searching certain areas close to the school,
because they have some POI in mind and they were at point A and then point B. And are going off the fact how far one could drive and be back in position within a certain time frame. No matter who it might be.

 

[sofia76]

It was terrifying, and I didn't even have kids yet. I have talked to my kids about it, but I would never say never about a child being lured. They just don't have that kind of judgment. Hell, there are adults who don't have that kind of judgment!

This is so true. Especially when kids get excited or wanting to do something. The warnings we've been given usually come into play when we are wary, or put off for some reason - or when it's something we didn't want to do in the first place. But if you entice a person (child or adult) with the right thing, logic can easily fly out the window.

 

[Deeemdee]

I know we all want to believe that, but I have seen for my own eyes how easy it is for a child to be lured away.

Last year in St. Louis a man walked into an elementary school through a door that was unlocked and told a random 8-year-old girl in the hallway that her teacher wanted to talk to her outside. He had her on the ground out behind a dumpster when people at a neighboring apartment complex intervened. She told the police "He tricked me! He tricked me!"

 

[liz b.]

Re sauvie island searches - I wonder if they are checking the Multnomah Channel.

Sofia,
I read a news piece on an earlier thread last night, and it did mention the Channel. It also said that the National Guard helicopters were hovering low, flying as close to the treeline (at the shore, I took that to mean), as they could. It seems that they were checking to see if a body had washed up there.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Do the busdrivers park their cars on campus while on their routes? I guess I'm asking if the buses dispatch from the school itself or from a bus yard?

wm

 

[Kimster]

The Multnomah Channel is the body of water that the bridge to Sauvie Island crosses. The Channel runs between Sauvie Island and the Forest Park/Linnton/Scappoose areas. It looks like a river on a map, but it feeds into the Columbia River on both ends.

WELCOME to Websleuths, Sofia76!!! :blowkiss: :woohoo:

 

[Kimster]

Hey locals, my brother lives off Corn Rd. and his fiance said they've been seeing two Black Hawks for the past few days. Are you guys seeing them too?

 

[sofia76]

I was a little surprised that LE would be making a PUBLIC plea for video more than a WEEK after the disappearance. I have assumed that with the investigative manpower and FBI invovlement early on, teams had already canvassed pertinent locations and corridors, interviewing people and businesses in person to get this info if it was there to be had. This public plea made me wonder if it was issued more as a way to amp up the pressure on someone they have their eye on. I can't imagine LE would rely on an "all-call for video" as a means to gather info/evidence.

A large part of me wonders if they are not looking for people per se, but changes in the terrain. For example, if they suspect Kyron (and/or another person) travelled a particular route on foot (or car), they might want to compare particular sites from shortly before his disappearance to after. Especially as some of these roads they are asking for footage of are winding, with narrow emergency (or no emergency) lanes, and some have severe drop offs. Also, if they are looking for evidence of someone having pulled off a road to drive into the trees, they could see if there were tire tracks or road disturbance in places now that there weren't previous to Kyron's disappearance.

 

[snarkymalarkey]

http://www.[link removed]/forum1/message759196/pg1
THis kind of story is the kind of story that makes me wonder if something happened to Kyron by somebody that is either involved in the school or an activity that Kyron is involved in. Once you read this article you can google for more information.... If Kyron likes a particular sport or activity (horses, a certain sport), he may have been so proud of his project that he told a 'trusted friend' to come and see it. Perhaps that person saw an opportunity present itself when the stepmother left the building.

 

[eyes4crime]

I wouldn't. There is only one way in and out of Sauvie Island by car - the bridge off Hwy 30. Sometimes there's construction going on there, or heaven forbid, a traffic delay of some type. Once coming back from Sauvie Island, it took me over an hour to get off the island. We are talking ONE maybe two miles. Why? I have no idea. By the time I got off the bridge and back on to Hwy 30, all I could see was that there was a police officer at the head of the bridge, directing traffic for no reason that I could discern. It was backed up on Hwy 30 for at least a mile.

So there are a lot of reasons to go to Sauvie Island, but it would certainly not be a destination point for me if I were a criminal looking dispose of something incriminating in a limited amount of time.

Also, The Pumpkin Patch is right out in the open, but you can't drive right up to it - you have to park and get out in the gravel lot (or you could drive across the fields, but that would be rather noticeable and leave tracks!). But maybe there is another pumpkin patch on the island that I've not been to. There might be; the island's main industry is agriculture.

And another thing, Forest Park is closer to Skyline than Sauvie Island - far more convenient if it's all about convenience and hiding something. Sauvie Island is not heavily wooded. It's pretty flat and, compared to Forest Park, much easier to see from the ground and from above. I wonder if the Sauvie Island searches have to do with waterways and/or a tip the LE have received.

Thank you so much sofia - I've been searching for a local who knows this area for the very reason you write about - why would someone use this place to hide/dump a body?

Along with the beautiful picture of this island that scandi put up is a picture of the bridge - sure doesn't look like a bridge anyone would stop on to dump a body. moo

You mention the police officer, crazy traffic, possible construction on the bridge and it seems apparent to me that someone with a body in their car sure as heck wouldn't go that congested route to dump it.

So now I'm left wondering - why are they searching the island on foot and from the air? Could it be cell phone pings? Tip? Anyways, thanks for the local input - it is very valuable. moo

Now I'll go and investigate Forest Park.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Do the busdrivers park their cars on campus while on their routes? I guess I'm asking if the buses dispatch from the school itself or from a bus yard?

wm

I guess it depends. I live rural and the bus drivers take their bus home each night. In town they park at the district bus yard.

 

[Nellie]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I keep going back to Day One and trying to flowchart this bugger, and recall one of the very first things I heard on the news, which is about the "science fair" going on and that the school could not use their normal security measures of signing people in and out because so many people were coming and going.

Screams crime of opportunity as that was most definitely not business as usual for a school. Maybe somebody who lives in that general area, or somebody from outside (or very recently moved there) who had been scoping the neighborhood, which might explain why LE is now asking for video from any business in that fairly large area, and starting with the day BEFORE Kyron went missing.

Perhaps to look for vehicles that were doing something out of the norm, like slowly dramatically or stopping near parks, playgrounds, schools or any place children are likely to frequent. Or to "follow" delivery route drivers to see who might be coming and going past Skyline Elementary around that time on a weekday morning. Perhaps to look for the mysterious white vehicle which neighbors claim they saw twice just previous to Kyron's disappearance.

Or it was somebody inside that school, whether an employee or an older student or students who could have lured Kyron away. If the latter is the case, I don't believe he will be found very far from the school. But if an outside person took him, he could be anywhere.

From the get go, his parents were all clear he is not the type to wander off, yet LE and SAR are beating the bushes primarily between the school and his home because they still have to treat that as a possibility lacking any clear evidence (eyewitness or video sighting) of an abduction.

That is also why the FBI has Kyron at least temporarily top and center on the jumping off "most wanted" page. If LE believes there is a chance he wandered off, time is VERY clearly of the essence for him, and running out quickly, unlike the other missing kids/adults whose circumstances are different. Not every one can have the top spot at the same time. They "might" be able to successfully recover this one.

If his LE stepdad has used his knowledge of the inner workings to keep this in the media and LE all over this, I surely cannot blame him. If I had a missing child and were in his shoes, I would make use of every avenue available to me and NOT take "no" for an answer.

I was in Portland Wed-Fri and I have to say I was duly impressed with the level of media coverage and just how many people and agencies were there out searching in some pretty miserable conditions, and had been at that search already for several days. Bless their souls, I hope they are successful and find Kyron, but I fear he did not come to a good end, and if taken away in a vehicle, won't likely be found within a dozen miles of the school unless it was by someone very, VERY comfortable with that area.

If the unthinkable has happened, I really hope the perp is sweating bullets about now watching a large and concerted professional search effort.

All that said, there is still a chance that because of bullying or some other "force" he left the school under his own steam and fairly quickly found himself a very lost, alone and scared little boy in what is very dense forestation/brush, and not far at all from the school.

At this juncture, I can't see any of his family being involved. Four very wrecked parents, perhaps with some unique dynamics going on amongst them, but I see nothing thus far that suggests there is a killer there, and appearances from LE that they do not believe so either.

Why they refuse to say who last saw Kyron is the thing that continues to bother me and make little sense, but I surmise it was perhaps a juvenile, and/or they felt they needed to protect this person from likely harassment. Otherwise they would have no reason to be "searching" for a live Kyron rather than "recovering" him if they believed the person who last saw him has brought him to harm.

My :twocents:

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too believe this screams crime of opportunity. I've felt it in my bones since day one.

Now that so many days have passed since my own experience with a serial killer I have to say that only today am I questioning if targeting me was a plan. To think that really freaks me out, but to think that - like I always have - it was a crime of opportunity makes me feel better.

He walked across the parking lot watching me put my young son into my car at 5:30ish am one morning. It was at least a mile away before he bumped me in my car and I never saw his car until that stop sign and I am sure I was NOT paying attention as he didn't alarm me in the parking lot what-so-ever. Only when he hit me "bumped my car bumper" and I got out did something scream out loud. FLEEEEEEE! I was in an old beater, he chased me trying to push me off the road, I tried losing him at a stop sign and he was waiting for me at the next street. He followed me all the way to my moms house and blocked my car in the driveway until she opened her door. Than he slowly drove away. This was a man hell bent on following thru no matter what.

I NEVER WENT TO THE POLICE. Oregon had just enacted a law about car insurance and I didn't have any at that time, so I was too scared to go. I wrote it off as a drunk driver... A month later it happened again but I didn't watch the news. My guy I'd been dating saw it and promptly came and got me and took me straight to SPD. That day I learned what my fate could of been as they had just found Katie, one of his other victims, dead. She had fought so hard that his skin was under her finger nails.

That experience shook me to the core. I buried it and only shared it with certain people after it happened. Why? I am not sure. I am very private. In December of 07 when he (WSS) confessed to a 25 yr old cold crime that had happened just under two years before the ones he committed in 84. When he confessed to that crime it rocked my world as it opened everything back up.

Why am I writing all of this? I guess to show how fast something can happen. He was a serial killer but I truly believe it was a crime of opportunity also. He was a sick sick man who had a need. When the opportunity struck - he took it.

 

[s_finch]

Yeah, that's an easy place because imagine from the I-5 bridge into WA, or Astoria bridge! NOT GOOD CHOICES! lol My guess, it was the closest spot to a river. We are chock full of water out here, could be ocean too!!

I heard that too on other cases on WS, the women/water/womb thing. I have always thought water out here would be a good place to dump a body. (Yeah, I sound sick now.... lol) IN FACT! At the Portland International Raceway, there's this lil pond that NO ONE goes to, and I was there last year and said, "This would be a good place to dump a body." I was a member of WS at the time so I didn't think it was a weird thing to say, but others were taken aback, let's say. Sometimes when you sleuth too much it goes into daily lives, and it clouds your empathy a lil maybe (you know what I mean, logical thinking) and makes you say weird comments. I hope nobody ever has to have computer forensics on my puter... lol Damn WS and their sleuthin' ways...

I totally know what you mean about thinking like a sleuth. When my son took his 2+ hour excursion that day, I immediately thought of predators/perps whereas everyone around me was saying, "Oh, someone will find him and bring him home", and I'm thinking about all the weirdos I read on here and it amazes me that the rest of the world hasn't a clue how dangerous life is. Also, had a fleeting thought that day that if some accident did happen to my son LE was surely gonna check my puter and all my sleuthing would be so suspious but then I knew I was totally innocent so that idea didn't linger. I thank God that He brought my son safely home.

As to dumping a body, water is much faster and easier than digging. If it is a female perp she probably didn't take time to bury but went with faster disposal method. Hate typing that.

 

[CocoChanel]

I know. It was also somewhat jarring that the officer who introduced the parents went out of his way to assert that the family was "united". Why did he think we thought they weren't and why did he think it was important for us to think they were? He was defensive before the thing even started and I felt like he was demanding that I see something that clearly wasn't there. I wondered at the time why he wanted us not to see the conflict and I decided he probably didn't want the public to be distracted by the family division.

Anyway, as I said before, I don't think the undercurrents in the family at that conference are central to finding to Kyron, but I do think it's a window into the family dynamics in general, which I find interesting to discuss.

CG - 'undercurrents' is a great word, and what I would imagine would be churning for Kyron's loved ones in this emotionally horrific situation. I predict that as time goes on there will be cracks appearing in the blended family solidarity. Surely they each have their own unspeakable suspicions and doubts of each other in such a trying time. And yes, this may not have anything to do with finding Kyron. On the other hand, it just might.

 

[suzet]

I agree with you... I think it's a recovery mission at this point The early days Kyron was missing were stormy and wet, although not terribly cold. But! The more wet and ragged, the chance of hypothermia sets in. I think they are looking for a body, but have no clue where. I've always wondered about the water... perfect place, the Columbia, to dump a body to never be found again...

Speaking of weather, I was just wondering if it was raining between 8:45am -9am the morning of Kyron's disappearance. Just wondered if walking out of the school with an open umbrella would offer the perp some form of cover, especially if walking out with a child. Just an idea.

 

[raeann]

I was a little surprised that LE would be making a PUBLIC plea for video more than a WEEK after the disappearance. I have assumed that with the investigative manpower and FBI invovlement early on, teams had already canvassed pertinent locations and corridors, interviewing people and businesses in person to get this info if it was there to be had. This public plea made me wonder if it was issued more as a way to amp up the pressure on someone they have their eye on. I can't imagine LE would rely on an "all-call for video" as a means to gather info/evidence.

I believe that the LE statement said that they specifically wanted video from private cameras IN ADDITION to those that they had already obtained from some businesses, etc.

jmoo