OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #15

[crocus]

So, lots of people wandering around looking at exhibits. Even if there were adults unknown to teachers, surely they would be associated with the child they were with. If you attend something like this, seems you would tour it with the student you are related to.

 

[gibby207]

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=Kyron

Don't forget to light a candle, say a prayer for Kyron and his family tonight.
Candles stay bright for 48 hours.
Click on an unlit one to begin.

I did...and I just hafta say that is an awesome site. I've lit candles several times on there since being on WS and what a great feeling. Thank you.

 

[mtnone]

From mtnone:
Hello everyone. I have been reading/following all this here since early last week, with a broken heart.

About the above post/thought: Since you can't control who would see you walking out, and wanted no one to notice, it seems to me that the person wouldn't be the one walking out with him, you couldn't take that chance. Though I haven't read of anyone seeing the parent leave alone either.

So, how do you control that part? Walking out with him, him alone, him with someone else? Any of those could be seen. How do you control that risk?

Also, wonder why they are now saying they are going back to canvas the neighborhood again? Asking about a certain car or person this time maybe?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WS, mtnone!

IMO you could walk out of the building without anyone seeing you by addressing two things. (time of arrival and exit choice)
1) Arrive way too early so that very few people will be at the location to witness your actions. Make sure you take a photo showing that you were actually at this location. Leave his coat and backpack in his classroom as proof that he attended school.
2) Ask the child to meet you around the exit which is used less frequently and is far away from the Science Fair Projects (where everyone heads when they arrive at school). Make up any excuse for why you need to meet your child at this infrequently used exit. Then, you leave out the most visible door without the child.

Make certain that you park your car as close as possible to the infrequently used exit.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, you would have to use an infrequently used exit I would think.

It's by far the moment with the least control over who would see what, no matter who you were.

So, if you a person who's car would be well known, would you use that car or another one?

If it was me, I might use another car and maybe even put a wig on. If anyone did see it, they would be describing a stranger. All that would complicate things a lot though, maybe better to keep it simple. Follow the KISS principle.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[RubyRed]

Kyron's Clothing, Glasses, and Shoes.
​

http://www.katu.com/news/local/96353069.html​

 

[Jaxson]

Well, to clarify my thoughts on this case, I’ve been viewing it from two perspectives. The perspectives are: 1) What are the implications of LE treating this as an isolated incident? 2) What are the implications of the known search locations?

By my way of thinking, LE cannot be assured that this is an isolated incident unless at least one of the following is true:

1) POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
2) POI acted alone and is now deceased (perhaps suicide)
3) POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe
4) LE knows conclusively that Kyron wandered away on his own and encountered no harm by another human

And here are the known search locations:

A) Inside the school
B) Within walking distance outside of the school
C) Areas in Portland that are beyond walking distance of the school

Sadly, C eliminates Scenario 4 (plus LE is publically going in the Criminal Investigation direction). So, that leaves Scenarios 1, 2 and 3.

Here are my thoughts on the remaining 3 scenarios:

Scenario 1: POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
Explains why LE is extremely tight-lipped and feels the public is safe. They are certain they have the right POI, but without a body and more evidence, they may not be able to charge him/her.

Scenario 2: POI acted alone and is deceased, probably due to suicide.
Explains why LE thinks public is safe. POI may not have left a confession but they are certain he/she was involved. Perhaps they have not ruled out an accomplice and that is why LE is so tight-lipped. This scenario has an interesting fit with two new pieces of information from the Sunday PC: One, that Sheriff Staton said that they did not need a body to make an arrest, and two, that there is now a $25K reward being offered for a tip leading to finding Kyron (not an arrest).

From http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopul...-for-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx

“KOIN Local 6 reporter Lisa Balick asked Staton Sunday if investigators needed to find Kyron before an arrest was made in this puzzling case. Staton paused a beat before answering: "No."

If the POI is deceased, this puts an entirely different twist on Staton’s answer. I thought the way in which Staton paused was very curious. There’s no need to arrest a deceased person, and if the POI is deceased, the reporter’s questions could have thrown him a little loop there.

Scenario 3: POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe.
This could be anyone (staff or visitors) who was at the school that day and saw an opportunity to do something. This is the scenario that seems to be discussed the most.

Any thoughts, especially on scenario 1 or 2?

I think Staton may have paused when he was asked if they needed to find a body because he did not want to give the impression they were looking for a body at that point and felt 'no comment' would cause more trouble that a simple no. I would not have expected him to say yes considering the parents feelings and the additional questions he would have been faced with answering. jmo

 

[carole]

Adorable photo--what a cute kid.

http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276

Kyron sure does look like his mom, Desiree!!

 

[gibby207]

I agree with you and appreciate you (bingo cards and all). I DO think (without getting deeper) we need more artwork, tho. I know where you are heading...

Hugs Ems...

BBM.

It seems I failed to link the connection of Kyron's pictures to the case discussion. My apologies.

If Kyron’s art did not intrigue you, you can probably just skip this post.

I was looking for forum feedback on Kyron’s art, as I’m forming a sort of victim/family life profile. I’m trying to use what little facts we have to fill out the character and abilities of the child Kyron and the quality of his school and home environment. Perhaps there will be more interest in this area if things proceed in the direction many salivate for it to go – with a family perp.

The pictures we have to work with provide us with some of the few facts we have about Kyron’s life. I had questions about Kyron’s drawings in particular, because they’re not simply cute, IMO, they seemed rather excellent.

I wanted to understand how a 7 year old boy could create such seemingly advanced work. Terri, custodial step-mother is a teacher. Teachers kids are often extremely well prepared for school, and have all the support they need to succeed. Is this Kyron’s experience?
Are these drawings really evidence of the care with which he’s been raised, which some imply? Is it really a window into Kyron’s home life? Is Kyron of normal intellect? Or is he somehow gifted?

All I know is my experience here. And my kids didn't produce work of this quality at age 7, back in the day. But that was a while ago and perhaps things are different now. Fortunately, I can ask how typical primary Art works now, because of the folks in this forum.

And is it typical in missing children’s cases – that the photo package from LE includes 2nd grade art? What’s the reason these pictures in particular were selected by LE and put out to the public? Someone here may have seen this before - ask in the forum.

These were my questions. For me, they related to thoughts I'm forumulating. I needed some feedback. Ask the forum.

This is why I asked a brief series of questions about Kyron's artwork in a post in this thread, providing the link to the pictures, and made it as easy as possible for responders by inserting the pix into the post. 28 folks said thanks for asking those questions. 11 posts followed that addressed the question.

The post above condescendingly implies that the 11 replies to my questions about Kyron’s pictures were nothing but a time wasting problem on this thread. I assure you they were not. The posts in answer to mine were definitely helpful. Some replies briefly included personal experience and that is something I asked - what were the experiences these days for 2nd grade art. No replies were self-indulgent or lengthy. Thanks everyone who answered so far. I greatly appreciated them. They helped me refine my thinking on this case even further. At another time, I might even share those thoughts.

I consider myself a serious contributor to this forum. I'm not moving to a parking lot to ask the opinions of this forum’s sleuthers precisely becasue they are here, they are not in the parking lot. And I’m not moving Kyron's pictures to the parking lot as if they were an intrusion here. Unless one of the Beans makes me. :blushing:

We don't have a sectioned forum for Kyron. It is difficult. It's crowded. The threads fly by. We all miss stuff just while we're posting. Nevertheless, for now each thread must be able to support discussion on a variety of sub-topics. And you know what? If and when a large Kyron forum happens, we're all going to greatly miss the synchronicity of the general threads.

This is all JHMO.

 

[crocus]

BBM.

It seems I failed to link the connection of Kyron's pictures to the case discussion. My apologies.

If Kyron’s art did not intrigue you, you can probably just skip this post.

I was looking for forum feedback on Kyron’s art, as I’m forming a sort of victim/family life profile. I’m trying to use what little facts we have to fill out the character and abilities of the child Kyron and the quality of his school and home environment. Perhaps there will be more interest in this area if things proceed in the direction many salivate for it to go – with a family perp.

The pictures we have to work with provide us with some of the few facts we have about Kyron’s life. I had questions about Kyron’s drawings in particular, because they’re not simply cute, IMO, they seemed rather excellent.

I wanted to understand how a 7 year old boy could create such seemingly advanced work. Terri, custodial step-mother is a teacher. Teachers kids are often extremely well prepared for school, and have all the support they need to succeed. Is this Kyron’s experience?
Are these drawings really evidence of the care with which he’s been raised, which some imply? Is it really a window into Kyron’s home life? Is Kyron of normal intellect? Or is he somehow gifted?

All I know is my experience here. And my kids didn't produce work of this quality at age 7, back in the day. But that was a while ago and perhaps things are different now. Fortunately, I can ask how typical primary Art works now, because of the folks in this forum.

And is it typical in missing children’s cases – that the photo package from LE includes 2nd grade art? What’s the reason these pictures in particular were selected by LE and put out to the public? Someone here may have seen this before - ask in the forum.

These were my questions. For me, they related to thoughts I'm forumulating. I needed some feedback. Ask the forum.

This is why I asked a brief series of questions about Kyron's artwork in a post in this thread, providing the link to the pictures, and made it as easy as possible for responders by inserting the pix into the post. 28 folks said thanks for asking those questions. 11 posts followed that addressed the question.

The post above condescendingly implies that the 11 replies to my questions about Kyron’s pictures were nothing but a time wasting problem on this thread. I assure you they were not. The posts in answer to mine were definitely helpful. Some replies briefly included personal experience and that is something I asked - what were the experiences these days for 2nd grade art. No replies were self-indulgent or lengthy. Thanks everyone who answered so far. I greatly appreciated them. They helped me refine my thinking on this case even further. At another time, I might even share those thoughts.

I consider myself a serious contributor to this forum. I'm not moving to a parking lot to ask the opinions of this forum’s sleuthers precisely becasue they are here, they are not in the parking lot. And I’m not moving Kyron's pictures to the parking lot as if they were an intrusion here. Unless one of the Beans makes me. :blushing:

We don't have a sectioned forum for Kyron. It is difficult. It's crowded. The threads fly by. We all miss stuff just while we're posting. Nevertheless, for now each thread must be able to support discussion on a variety of sub-topics. And you know what? If and when a large Kyron forum happens, we're all going to greatly miss the synchronicity of the general threads.

This is all JHMO.

I was rather intrigued by the pictures. Specifically why was the sun's head cut off at the top and not completed?

 

[pufnstuf]

Kyron sure does look like his mom, Desiree!!

Spittin' image. When Desiree walked into the news conference the first time, even though she was understandably upset, the first thing I noticed was the remarkable resemblance. She is a beautiful woman.

 

[gibby207]

Thank you immensely!! But, um... those are stained pants. Are they trying to say these are "replicas" of Kyron's clothing?

Kyron's Clothing, Glasses, and Shoes.
​

http://www.katu.com/news/local/96353069.html​

 

[gwenabob]

BBM.

It seems I failed to link the connection of Kyron's pictures to the case discussion. My apologies.

If Kyron’s art did not intrigue you, you can probably just skip this post.

snipped rest

My daughter's 2nd grade teacher specialized in Art and was solely an art teacher at one time. They did some really excellent projects. Each month the whole class would focus on an artist such as Van Gogh, O'Keefe, and some others I don't remember, who painted in varying styles. They studied their art, then did their own painting in the featured artist's style. I remember Van Gogh and O'Keefe mostly because those pieces were my favorites that my daughter did.

The chipmunk picture looks like something Kyron did on his own. The sun looks like it was styled after another artist or perhaps middle/South American architecture. JMO

 

[Wendy101]

Well, to clarify my thoughts on this case, I’ve been viewing it from two perspectives. The perspectives are: 1) What are the implications of LE treating this as an isolated incident? 2) What are the implications of the known search locations?

By my way of thinking, LE cannot be assured that this is an isolated incident unless at least one of the following is true:

1) POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
2) POI acted alone and is now deceased (perhaps suicide)
3) POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe
4) LE knows conclusively that Kyron wandered away on his own and encountered no harm by another human

And here are the known search locations:

A) Inside the school
B) Within walking distance outside of the school
C) Areas in Portland that are beyond walking distance of the school

Sadly, C eliminates Scenario 4 (plus LE is publically going in the Criminal Investigation direction). So, that leaves Scenarios 1, 2 and 3.

Here are my thoughts on the remaining 3 scenarios:

Scenario 1: POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
Explains why LE is extremely tight-lipped and feels the public is safe. They are certain they have the right POI, but without a body and more evidence, they may not be able to charge him/her.

Scenario 2: POI acted alone and is deceased, probably due to suicide.
Explains why LE thinks public is safe. POI may not have left a confession but they are certain he/she was involved. Perhaps they have not ruled out an accomplice and that is why LE is so tight-lipped. This scenario has an interesting fit with two new pieces of information from the Sunday PC: One, that Sheriff Staton said that they did not need a body to make an arrest, and two, that there is now a $25K reward being offered for a tip leading to finding Kyron (not an arrest).

From http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopul...-for-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx

“KOIN Local 6 reporter Lisa Balick asked Staton Sunday if investigators needed to find Kyron before an arrest was made in this puzzling case. Staton paused a beat before answering: "No."

If the POI is deceased, this puts an entirely different twist on Staton’s answer. I thought the way in which Staton paused was very curious. There’s no need to arrest a deceased person, and if the POI is deceased, the reporter’s questions could have thrown him a little loop there.

Scenario 3: POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe.
This could be anyone (staff or visitors) who was at the school that day and saw an opportunity to do something. This is the scenario that seems to be discussed the most.

Any thoughts, especially on scenario 1 or 2?

No thoughts on scenario 1 or 2...

I pic #3-C

 

[rosiebean]

I disagree. FBI Special Agent Lynn Willett specifically said that when she was sitting in her car talking to a pizzeria manager she quickly came to believe was a kidnapper, she was very mindful of how she proceeded because she'd seen "confessions fall by the wayside."
Cases can be sunk by police errors, convictions can be overturned by police errors. They definitely think about defenses.

Again, there is a difference between investigating the facts/doing things by the book and investigating potential 'defenses' by the criminal in question.

LE can do everything by the book and STILL arrest an innocent person.

Likewise, they can do everything by the book and the guilty person can still be acquitted by a jury.

It is LE's job to make an arrest based on the FACTS in the case. Naturally, they are...if they are good at what they do, and if they are concerned about a case holding up in court...they are going to follow standard procedure so as not to impede a future court case.

It is still not their job to investigate 'defenses' by the perp (I won't even call them the 'accused', because they are NOT the accused when LE is working with them, only when the judicial branch processes the evidence). It is LE's job to make an arrest based on facts, and then to hand those over to the DA. LE's not going to hold off on an arrest to make sure they've investigated very potential defense the perp might have (no! it was my evil twin/I have multiple personalities/it was aliens)...that's ALL I am saying here.

 

[human]

RE the art work. I used to be an elementary art teachers years ago.

Sometimes the really smart kids were great in art. Sometimes the children that have the most tragic of lives were really good in art.

I think most great artists had kind of disturbed lives. Van Gogh, Gauguin, DaVinci, Toulouse Latrec, Frida Kahlo, Georgia O'Keefe. I would have to dig into the memory and it's too late at night.

But really creative geniuses are not like the average person.

I think he has skill. Whether it's creative genius or not, that would have to be determined by seeing him at work.

As an art teacher, I could get a lot more fabulous work out of children by discussion and talking about placement on the paper, going outside of the margins of the paper, color, etc etc etc.

So it's hard to say without being with him how extraordinary he is.

I loved second grade art the best of all of the grades. There is just something special about it.

I always felt that I should steal their work and redo it an call it my own and become famous.

 

[Jaxson]

Thank you immensely!! But, um... those are stained pants. Are they trying to say these are "replicas" of Kyron's clothing?

Actually they were described as camoflage.

 

[Deeemdee]

BBM.

It seems I failed to link the connection of Kyron's pictures to the case discussion. My apologies.

If Kyron’s art did not intrigue you, you can probably just skip this post.

I was looking for forum feedback on Kyron’s art, as I’m forming a sort of victim/family life profile. I’m trying to use what little facts we have to fill out the character and abilities of the child Kyron and the quality of his school and home environment. Perhaps there will be more interest in this area if things proceed in the direction many salivate for it to go – with a family perp.
*snip*

Little Lisa Steinberg's art was famously informative. You can bet the FBI profiler was scrutinizing Kyron's.
If the case turns inwards, one of those drawings might be illustrating a little acorn being imperiled by an enormous xxxx Who knows?

Thanks for posting the artwork.

 

[mtnone]

My daughter's 2nd grade teacher specialized in Art and was solely an art teacher at one time. They did some really excellent projects. Each month the whole class would focus on an artist such as Van Gogh, O'Keefe, and some others I don't remember, who painted in varying styles. They studied their art, then did their own painting in the featured artist's style. I remember Van Gogh and O'Keefe mostly because those pieces were my favorites that my daughter did.

The chipmunk picture looks like something Kyron did on his own. The sun looks like it was styled after another artist or perhaps middle/South American architecture. JMO

I got the same feeling about the sun being based another work and the squirrel one not.

The squirrel one spoke to me as soon as I saw it. I had no idea about any nicknames at that time at all. It might mean absolutely nothing, but that squirrel one breaks my heart. I see no happiness or joy in it, and at that time, I wasn't looking for anything like that at all. It was just there when I looked at the picture.

I am very intrigued and unsure about the feather, leaf in the corner though.

 

[RubyRed]

Thank you immensely!! But, um... those are stained pants. Are they trying to say these are "replicas" of Kyron's clothing?

Additionally, KATU.com is republishing the similar-looking items of clothing Kyron was wearing when he disappeared. Those photos were released by police last week.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/96353069.html

 

[Blue Ridge]

What Rumors? Am I missing something?

Same thing I'm missing and I've been here all evening. Apparently this island they're searching has it's own FB page, and then another FB page was posted that I understood to be a 'find Kyron' page...however, not having FB myself, when I tried to access these pages all I got was a 'log in' page...evidently you can't see them if you don't belong to FB....so it's been quite frustrating seeing everyone hinting at stuff that I myself couldn't go look at....anyway, some of it you can kinda figure out the gist of by reading the posts about it.

 

[carole]

Kyron's Clothing, Glasses, and Shoes.
​

http://www.katu.com/news/local/96353069.html​

I think they are the same style as the pants Kyron was wearing. The "staining" might be manufactured, so many clothing items are distressed to begin with nowadays.