OR - Militia members occupy federal building in Oregon after protest #1

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  • #261
I said they stated they will "defend" against violence which was in response to Tawny's post #243, so my Post #245 (which you quoted) has already answered your question.

Your answer is they will defend themselves against violence, so if the government decides to go after these lawbreakers who are occupying federal land and are forced to use violence - the milita men are armed so they have no choice - the militia men will defend themselves by shooting at federal agents or members of local law enforcement. Sure, that makes perfect sense. They're not threatening violence at all.

JMO
 
  • #262
Oh, I don't know......
Keith Landon, a longtime resident of Burns and employee at the Reid Country Store, said he knows local law enforcement officials who fear their kids will be targeted by angry militia members.

The mother of one of his kids is now involved with an officer, and they decided to send their children to another town after feeling threatened by an angry protester, Landon said.

"I'm hoping most of it's just muscle, trying to push," he said. "But it's a scary thing."


So now being afraid of someone not because of what they have done but because what you IMAGINE they might do makes them a terrorist?
 
  • #263
It really makes me think there is maybe a dozen or less that are part of the 'occupation' and making these threats. Media has reported that they only see about twenty out there and that not all armed. From what I understand they are begging people on social media to come and help thier cause. I may have missed it, but I haven't read that they are growing in numbers.

I agree. I don't think there are many people there at all. I doubt they are going to get lot's of folks anytime soon. The temperature there right now is 22 going down to 19 with a 50% chance of snow tonight.
 
  • #264
This militia is no different than black lives matter protesters? Um if blm took over a federal building and threatened to kill all law enforcerment who came near it...the response would be so much different.
 
  • #265
Oh, I don't know......



So now being afraid of someone not because of what they have done but because what you IMAGINE they might do makes them a terrorist?

Just to be clear, I wasn't the one who called them Terrorist. That was someone else. I was only replying to your comment that "I don't think the public is the slightest bit afraid of being randomly attacked/targeted by the militia". I haven't actually found a word I want to use to describe them.
 
  • #266
Look, I don't agree at all with what these guys are doing AT ALL, but I'd hardly characterize them (at this point in their protest) as "terrorists." Good grief!

They haven't hurt anyone, taken any hostages, or blown anything up. They haven't burned any businesses or homes, cut any fire hoses, shot any weapons, or thrown any rocks or molotov cocktails-- unlike our REAL domestic urban rioters who I WOULD call domestic terrorists.

I am intensely curious WHY this "protest" is not viewed as a "peaceful protest", like other urban social activist groups? Because it's in a rural area??

Is it because they are white, and have guns, and are open about what they are doing? Why doesn't the mayor "give them room to destroy" or something like that? Just because they have their lawfully owned guns at their little protest party? These guys are NO DIFFERENT than urban activist "protesters", or the "Occupy Wall Street/ San Francisco/ San Diego, etc" crowds of misguided misfits. They are no different than the Minneapolis group of disgruntled "protesters" that camped out at the 4th police precinct for 4 weeks or so. No different from the Alcatraz occupiers.

All these protesters have some issue/s they are perpetually aggrieved over, and want to make a point and have lots of publicity. But nothing is ever solved with this kind of behavior, whether in an urban or rural environment. But it makes people feel good, and important, to act out, so they do.

Nobody wants to see this end in a blaze of gunfire, but for the life of me, I can't understand the drum beating and saber rattling by the authorities. Ignore them, or negotiate, but don't bring in any armed law enforcement. Treat them like every other urban protester. I really don't think these men will shoot anyone. They just want to have their tantrum and their protest. Leave them be and stop the coverage-- they will eventually get tired of the whole thing in a few months or a year.

Geez-- what we put up with from urban rioters/ protesters/ occupiers-- tents, people using sidewalks as bathrooms, graffiti and property damage, fires, for weeks to months on end, freeways blockaded, airports shut down, train lines shut down, etc. No one runs in with guns blazing when those kind of protests are going on. We have to "tolerate" their "frustration" with whatever they say they are "frustrated" about. And find them a "safe space."

These guys are far away from any populations-- there is just no need to whip this up into a blaze of gunfire. Cooler heads should prevail!

Let them have their peaceful little protest party, and carry their guns around. Keep an eye on them, but media and government authorities should pretty much ignore them UNLESS they start destroying stuff or firing weapons (which they won't, IMO). Government authorities should not be GOADED or PROVOKED by these guys. IMO!

(And by the way, the scope in the fire tower looks to me like a high power spotting scope--NOT the scope on a rifle.)
Thank you. I have been wanting g to say this.
 
  • #267
This militia is no different than black lives matter protesters? Um if blm took over a federal building and threatened to kill all law enforcerment who came near it...the response would be so much different.

No. I disagree with that. Urban social activist protesters are given WIDE latitude, and LOTS of space to carry on their little protest. Hundreds of businesses destroyed in cities. Entire city blocks burned. Looted pharmacies and businesses. Chants all over America to kill police officers. Freeways shut down, 2 airport terminals in minnesota 2 weeks ago, the MOA, train and bus lines, etc-- and the response was quiet tolerance. Why is that behavior tolerated without hundreds of arrests and armed response? And a few whackjob "militia" protesters can provoke this kind of response from the media and LE??

The hubris and hypocrisy is staggering, IMO.
 
  • #268
The ranchers were leasing Government land for their own use. The Government can't steal or take land that already belongs to the Government in the first place.

It's so interesting. Government land is publicly owned land. It's one thing to protest about how that land is used, but it's another thing entirely to attempt a land grab to use for your own purpose. That has never gone well in history. I'd imagine a lot of Americans don't like the idea of militia groups taking over land owned by the public.
 
  • #269
So now being afraid of someone not because of what they have done but because what you IMAGINE they might do makes them a terrorist?

I wouldn't say afraid. but I will admit that I'm a little trepidatious around large crowds of idiots with guns. It's just one of my many foibles.
 
  • #270
Just to be clear, I wasn't the one who called them Terrorist. That was someone else. I was only replying to your comment that "I don't think the public is the slightest bit afraid of being randomly attacked/targeted by the militia". I haven't actually found a word I want to use to describe them.

I'm calling them militia men (which I think is what they call themselves) because while I think they're using terrorism or terroristic tactics I'm unsure where a person crosses the line to BEING a terrorist. Maybe when they actually use violence.
JM2C
 
  • #271
One group is using guns to threaten violence. The other group uses Molotov cocktails. IMO they are both armed.
 
  • #272
It's so interesting. Government land is publicly owned land. It's one thing to protest about how that land is used, but it's another thing entirely to attempt a land grab to use for your own purpose. That has never gone well in history. I'd imagine a lot of Americans don't like the idea of militia groups taking over land owned by the public.

But isn't that exactly what the Occupy protesters did? And the Alcatraz occupiers? And all the other urban protests where tents are pitched and protesters move in for a while? Even in state government buildings this happens. Remember Wisconsin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_protests
 
  • #273
It's so interesting. Government land is publicly owned land. It's one thing to protest about how that land is used, but it's another thing entirely to attempt a land grab to use for your own purpose. That has never gone well in history. I'd imagine a lot of Americans don't like the idea of militia groups taking over land owned by the public.

That is an interesting aspect of this situation. Some members of the public actually appreciate that land is set aside by the federal government as wetlands, sanctuaries, refuges for our wildlife. So what makes these people think that the land should be given to them instead of being used for what another group of Americans want it used for? Do they also want Yellowstone back for ranching and mining? Where would it stop?
 
  • #274
It's so interesting. Government land is publicly owned land. It's one thing to protest about how that land is used, but it's another thing entirely to attempt a land grab to use for your own purpose. That has never gone well in history. I'd imagine a lot of Americans don't like the idea of militia groups taking over land owned by the public.

I want them to get off my land (where is the shakes fist smilie?). I'm very supportive of state and national parks and forests and wildlife refuges.
 
  • #275
Guys, let's not get this thread shut down by arguing which group of protesters is worse. Let's keep this about the Oregon standoff.
 
  • #276
<modsnip>

I'd say it's different. These militia men aren't protesting. They've walked in there and said they are taking the land. They're not even trying to negotiate. Their aim is not disruption. It is just to steal land and they claim they'll shoot if the law intervenes.
 
  • #277
Guys, let's not get this thread shut down by arguing which group of protesters is worse. Let's keep this about the Oregon standoff.

You're absolutely right. My apologies for participating in an off-road discussion!

tumblr_m8luy5ff2M1rziwwco1_500.gif
 
  • #278
I'd say it's different. These militia men aren't protesting. They've walked in there and said they are taking the land. They're not even trying to negotiate. Their aim is not disruption. It is just to steal land and they claim they'll shoot if the law intervenes.

You're right. Here is what they say they want.
Q: What do the militants want?
A: In a phone in interview with The Oregonian, another Bundy son, Ryan, laid out the militants' demands: that the Hammonds be released and that the surrounding federal lands be ceded to local control. "The best possible outcome is that the ranchers that have been kicked out of the area... will come back and reclaim their land, and the wildlife refuge will be shut down forever and the federal government will relinquish such control," Ryan Bundy said. He added, "What we're doing is not rebellious. What we're doing is in accordance with the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...tia-standoff-explained-20160103#ixzz3wKeIePNm
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

But I..........(who cares right?) want it to remain a refuge. I wonder what makes them think they get to decide?
 
  • #279
Wait, isn't this thread about the standoff in Oregon?

Yes. A friend of mine pointed out, and I agree, how usually attempts to decrease the powers of government have the opposite effect and result in an increase of power. (Shay's Rebellion, Whiskey Rebellion, Civil War, etc.) So this is historically the wrong way to go about getting what they want and it will be interesting to see what the outcome is for that reason. Especially in comparison to Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the previous Bundy stand off. Will they get what they want? Will it all go away? Will the government come up with new initiatives and powers in an attempt to prevent this?

JMO
 
  • #280
How do they explain this and how many of these militia men are Constitutional Scholars?

What we're doing is not rebellious. What we're doing is in accordance with the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land."
 
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