OR - Militia members occupy federal building in Oregon after protest #2

[Lilibet]

I don't see those as edits. I think that is adjustments of the camera from distance to close up back to distance. Why would they even edit this part of the video? There is nothing going on at that point to edit. IMO

BBM

Exactly. I said the same thing upthread and asked what this has to do with the shooting segment. Perhaps the point the poster is making is that the FBI claims that this is unedited video and the poster is saying they are lying, so the rest of the video isn't trustworthy? If so, that's a stretch IMO.

The bottom line, clearly shown by the video, is that Finicum sped away from a traffic stop, tried to avoid a roadblock, narrowly missing a LEO, jumped out of his truck and didn't keep his hands in the air. I see nothing nefarious on the part of LE here. They have been criticized on this thread for exercising restraint by some who wanted them to take aggressive action. But their restraint has avoided bloodshed, other than that of a man whose words and actions threatened the lives of LE and his own. And now some want to imply that LE shot Finicum unfairly and are doctoring evidence?
Excuse me while I go :banghead:
JMO

 

[LinasK]

This reporter is with OPB & reading his tweets this morning there is audio they are listening inside the compound somehow.

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC 16m16 minutes ago
Wow. Sandy Anderson says Sean told her to leave, she refused. everyone was ready to go. she wouldn't leave him. Jeff & David then stayed.

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC 5m5 minutes ago
John Sepulvado Retweeted Shelley Powers
they say the fbi told them "y'all stay there as long as you want. we'll wait it out."

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC 12m12 minutes ago
John Sepulvado Retweeted Eric
the men stayed with the couple. the deal -- according to sandy -- was done -- and she stopped, so they stopped.

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC 37m37 minutes ago
John Sepulvado Retweeted Jennifer Hayden
not replying. all i can say is we're hearing conversations on the compound.

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC 46m46 minutes ago
David Fry only recently woke up. Ppl have been trying to reach him all morning.

https://twitter.com/JohnLGC/with_replies

Well they have to run out of food at some point, so arrest them when they go out to buy food. Sandy's gonna stand-by-her man whether it gets her killed or not.

 

[bluesneakers]

I thought of that as well, and I think there is a very good likelihood that that is what he was thinking.

How would leading a chase, nearly hitting an officer, and jumping out of the truck like that protect the people in the vehicle?

 

[i.b.nora]

I didn't watch the video, but just from what I've read it's clear this guy was reaching for his gun to take down a few cops with him as he committed suicide-by-cop. Most intelligent people know when a cop orders you to put your hands up, you cooperate, and you don't run or you will be shot. The cops have to protect their own lives first, unless they are going to use rubber bullets or tasers. ( And FYI, I am extremely pro-gun control, I made my husband give up his gun).

I did watch the video, several times now. And I am not at all sure he intended to 'take down a few cops with him'. In fact, it has occurred to me that it was his intention to have LE focus on him, to protect the others (as stated before) all while he took his own life. If we could only know, what if anything he said.

I still have this nagging feeling that there was something going on with him that no one knew about.

 

[Hope4More]

But don't you agree there is a big difference between carrying a concealed weapon and wearing your weapons as accessories? There are certain behaviors that will inherently increase the possibility of something bad happening. Like taking over a federal building and threatening LE and community members while being armed to the teeth. And this while very publicly stating you are willing to die for your cause and will never spend a moment in a concrete box.

Yep. Strike 1.

Strike 2: And then, after doing and saying those things, trying to evade arrest by speeding away then trying to go around a roadblock.

I watched the video multiple times. I see that man who now has 2 strikes against him yes, putting his arms up in the air, but just as clearly putting them down and twice reaching into his coat. Strike 3.

LE took extreme measures to deny these logical thinking-challenged , law-breaking , self-deluded oafs any martyrs to advance their cause.

Tarp-man was shot and killed because he gave LE no other choice.

 

[Fairy1]

I really couldn't hear the speakers at the PC last night but I thought the fellow that spoke before showing the video explained in advance that there had been some editing and was very specific as to what was edited and why. IIRC, he said the entire video was 25 minutes long and that it would be posted in its entirety on the FBI website.

Did anyone hear what I think I heard or am I losing it?

 

[i.b.nora]

How would leading a chase, nearly hitting an officer, and jumping out of the truck like that protect the people in the vehicle?

It seems to me that by the time he didn't make it past the roadblock, although he sure tried, all his options to 'get away' were exhausted. By jumping out of the vehicle and moving quickly away from it, he could (maybe) focus the LE attention on himself in case they were inclined to just shoot at the car and thus its occupants.

It would help to know what they talked about in that 3 to 4 minute period of time after Ryan Paine gave himself up.

 

[Hope4More]

For myself personally, it's important to think critically and not side with anyone. I don't think it's possible to tell from that video whether it was a justified shooting. I suppose there was the likelihood that he was armed and willing to fight. But hey, a lot of people are armed in America. No wonder the police react so quickly when someone's "non-compliant".

I think there is enough evidence in the video to say it was justified.

1. LE didn't shoot up the car. They told him to get out.
2. LE didn't shoot him as he got out, or as he took steps away from the car.
3. LE didn't shoot him with his arms up.
4. LE didn't shoot him even when he put his arms down and reached into his coat for the first time.

LE only shot him when he reached in for a second time. I call that enormous restraint, no doubt on orders to NOT shoot if it could be prevented.

Remember the NY prison escapee not so long ago? He was sniped sitting on the ground. That's what it looks like when the order is -take no chances.

 

[i.b.nora]

The FBI YouTube website has both videos available. The long version has gotten 1.3 million plus views.

https://m.youtube.com/user/fbi

 

[Fairy1]

It seems to me that by the time he didn't make it past the roadblock, although he sure tried, all his options to 'get away' were exhausted. By jumping out of the vehicle and moving quickly away from it, he could (maybe) focus the LE attention on himself in case they were inclined to just shoot at the car and thus its occupants.

It would help to know what they talked about in that 3 to 4 minute period of time after Ryan Paine gave himself up.

It would help to know - but I'm sure we never will. Even if what transpired inside that vehicle supports 100% what ultimately happened, the other occupants will never admit it.

I have learned a very valuable lesson, though, by watching that video: Do not run into deep snow if you are trying to get away.

 

[LinasK]

I did watch the video, several times now. And I am not at all sure he intended to 'take down a few cops with him'. In fact, it has occurred to me that it was his intention to have LE focus on him, to protect the others (as stated before) all while he took his own life. If we could only know, what if anything he said.

I still have this nagging feeling that there was something going on with him that no one knew about.

They found a gun in his pocket (I don't remember the mm, so I'm not going to put that for fear of misquoting the size of the weapon). I'd say that alone justifies the police shooting him- they can't know that he might be bluffing, and even if he was unarmed, he still knew he took the risk of suicide-by-cop by reaching into his waistband. I can't see this guy as a hero no matter how hard I try- and I am very anti-gun and pro-LE. I think cops are the only ones who should have guns.
No one can claim this was a racist killing.
Also, the fact that he tried to evade the roadblock means he wasn't going to let himself be taken into custody. I really believe this kind of mentality would have no qualms about taking down a few officers with him.

 

[bluesneakers]

It seems to me that by the time he didn't make it past the roadblock, although he sure tried, all his options to 'get away' were exhausted. By jumping out of the vehicle and moving quickly away from it, he could (maybe) focus the LE attention on himself in case they were inclined to just shoot at the car and thus its occupants.

It would help to know what they talked about in that 3 to 4 minute period of time after Ryan Paine gave himself up.

I guess, maybe. But he could just as easily been trying to distract LE while the other occupants got their weapons locked and loaded.

I really think he jumped out of the truck in an attempt to martyr himself and didn't care about anyone else. This is a man who left behind his wife and children so he could go to Constitution camp. Not exactly selfless.

 

[DexterMorgan]

The guy whom was killed looks like he may had health issues and used this as a way to end his life as well as being a martyr to the cause. Jmo.

The ones that didn't want to die made sure that they kept things simple. Jmo

 

[LinasK]

The guy whom was killed looks like he may had health issues and used this as a way to end his life as well as being a martyr to the cause. Jmo.

The ones that didn't want to die made sure that they kept things simple. Jmo

Interesting thought. Maybe he had cancer and it wasn't widely known...

 

[i.b.nora]

So, I ask myself why an 18 year old young woman who it has been said was riding in Finicum's vehicle in order to join the rest of her family to sing at the meeting in John Day, why would she choose not to leave the vehicle along with Ryan Payne? What was being said? What was LE saying? What was Finicum saying? What was being said in those 3 or 4 minutes?

 

[Donjeta]

“I think that becomes problematic when the Bureau of Land Management comes in and tells them how to run their ranches," she said. "Guys in suits telling guys in cowboy hats and spurs how to raise their cattle."

http://fox13now.com/2016/01/28/oregon-standoff-not-violent-says-utah-woman-who-participated/

So watch out, if you're wearing a suit, guys in cowboy hats are entitled to keep their cattle on your backyard.

 

[bluesneakers]

Yep. Strike 1.

Strike 2: And then, after doing and saying those things, trying to evade arrest by speeding away then trying to go around a roadblock.

I watched the video multiple times. I see that man who now has 2 strikes against him yes, putting his arms up in the air, but just as clearly putting them down and twice reaching into his coat. Strike 3.

LE took extreme measures to deny these logical thinking-challenged , law-breaking , self-deluded oafs any martyrs to advance their cause.

Tarp-man was shot and killed because he gave LE no other choice.

I've watched it a few times now too. To me it looks like he's going for his gun when he turns toward the officer who was along the side by the trees. It also doesn't look like he has his hands up to surrender so much as he has them up to be in control, like he's trying to direct and tell them what to do.

I think the only thing going on with him was he was an entitled, selfish man who had delusions of grandeur and wanted to die a hero.

 

[LinasK]

http://fox13now.com/2016/01/28/oregon-standoff-not-violent-says-utah-woman-who-participated/

So watch out, if you're wearing a suit, guys in cowboy hats are entitled to keep their cattle on your backyard.

So why takeover a national bird sanctuary in another state if your issue is about cattle? And even if the Malheur's doors were unlocked so that this militia could walk in, then why bring guns??? Clearly they were always going to bunker down, even though the idiots forgot to pack food and supplies.

 

[KaaBoom]

With fresh eyes, and ears, and thoughts this morning, I think there are a number of missing factors which could help me further assess what I see.

For instance, after being stopped in the vehicle for those many minutes, what caused Finicum to take off and appear to try to get away? What was said by him and by the LE during those many minutes?

Having watched videos of hundreds of police chases, I have seen that happen many times. Two possible reasons I can think of. 1. The suspect decides to stop his car and give up. Then he changes his mind and decides to run again. 2. The suspect does it to confuse the LEOs. When the suspect stops, all the cops have to get out of their cars and start procedures for a felony stop. When the suspect takes off again, the cops have to get back in their cars, and then they have to catch up to the suspect again. This gives the suspect a big jump on the pursuing officers.

This is the biggest blunder I see cops make in ending police chases. All cops should be retrained to immediately block the suspects vehicle when they stop. Often innocent bystanders get hurt after the cops could have blocked the vehicle and put a stop to the chase.

What caused Finicum to try to get around the roadblock?

I don’t think he did go around it. I don’t think he had a chance to stop. The truck was clearly traveling at a very high rate of speed. He came around the bend and the first thing he saw was the cop trying to put down the spike strip. He swerved around that, then he saw the pickup trucks blocking the road ahead of him. There was no way he could have stopped at that point, even if the road wasn’t icy, which it clearly was. So he drove the truck into the snowbank, to avoid hitting the vehicles in front of him.

At least that was my first impression, and now I have heard others say the same thing.

What caused Finicum to get out of the vehicle so quickly after plowing into the snowbank (and nearly hitting a person)? What did he say inside and outside of the vehicle at that time? Why did he even jump out of the vehicle? Did he have a seat belt on? Did the others have seat belts on?

So many questions and answers still needed to satisfy me that I have a full and complete picture to assess.

And, to add, I have thought for some time after watching some of his online videos as well as "news" interviews that there is/was something medically wrong with Finicum. Maybe reading his book or books would provide me some insight? I don't really think I am going to do that, but I might.

Anyhow, I sure would like to know more.

I agree there is a lot more we need to know.

 

[KaaBoom]

Where are the body cam videos?? Why aren't they showing them??

Good question. Maybe the body cams show something the FBI doesn’t want people to see?