GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #3

[Indy Anna]

Ahhh! Thank you for that. I have been reading all weekend and must have missed that discussion. Shocker! Lol

I still don't think that "if" Whitney agreed to give this murderous tool a ride that she had any culpability. And again, that may not have been what anyone was insinuating, but I get kinda prickly about blaming victims.

I think someone was suggesting that the idea of Whitney agreeing to give a man a ride may have been justification in JDH's mind for what he did. The idea that had she not broken a tacit "rule" he would not have had the opportunity to hurt her. I don't think anyone here was suggesting that it would be justification - just that JDH may have considered it justification in his convoluted mind. No civilized human being would ever consider an unwritten etiquette rule justification for assault and murder.

I'm like you - I hate when people blame victims. I have seen that happen plenty, too, and that just infuriates me!

 

[crazymomof4]

HLN just did some brief coverage. Said they would follow up so hopefully with the arraignement too. HLN reported that Holt took care of plants etc. in Whitney and Clints apt. Not the other way around???? Also stated Holts Wife was upset when she heard of Whitneys disappearance that morning but could not locate her husband. Hmmm.......just sayin :waitasec:

Hmmm is right! That's bizarre about the plant watering. Major error? I can't imagine what must have been going through Holt's wife's mind during that time. I wonder if she alerted LE that he was missing and that gave them their first POI?

 

[justwannahelp]

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

i see what you are saying. it's tough. there's a fine line between rudeness and assertiveness. i opened the front door to a man campaigning. it was against my better judgement, but no one wants to believe the worst of human nature. it was like an outer body experience for me. as i opened the door, i thought to myself "Mickey Shunick was just murdered, yet you are opening the door to a stranger!" (it was after Lavergne's arrest at least)

it was the weirdest thing. i was disappointed in myself, but at the same time, the guy really is running for Mayor. I wasn't sure of that at the time, however. thus, this is why i try to coach myself. my nature is more polite and less assertive. so now i'm coaching myself to wreck the car if ever in a situation like Whitney was. but there again, it's easier to coach than to do.

 

[Ashfox]

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

I agree with alot of this I got robbed once while on a walk because a man who looked to be homeless started riding next to me and I wanted to be nice and instead of telling him to get lost I engaged him in convo and he knocked me down and stole my ring thank goodness I didnt get hurt seriously but there is bad in this world and not everyone is a good person I still to this day talk to strangers I for one did grow up sheltered in a very small town school community we didnt get into politics wars all the bad that happens I still sometimes worry that I come off to harsh and I realize I constantly apologize if I even THINK I offended someone lol

 

[crazymomof4]

As for Clint's demeanor- crushed, overwhelmed, and complete sleep deprived is all I see. This poor man lost his entire life in one morning. How will he go on without the obvious love of his life?

That's what I see too. Also I would not be surprised if his Dr gave him a scrip for something to calm his nerves/anxiety. It would totally be a standard practice in a situation like this. Some of his flat affect might be attributable to this.

 

[ozgirl70]

Is that area known to have a meth problem?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was high as a kite. JMO but it would explain why he was up and about so early in the morning. It would also explain the sexual aspect, the obsession, the planned crime yet unplanned execution of it.
Would they have tested him to see if he had any drugs in his system?

I agree it's also possible he threw his phone by accident, thinking it was Whitney's.

FWIW I think his wife realised he had some kind of obsession with Whitney.

:moo::moo:

 

[tiredblondy]

Just an fyi, I was taught to be polite (not nice) and because I had a very wise and protective father he encouraged me how to politely tell someone to get lost. Believe you me it's saved me a couple of times.

 

[justwannahelp]

I agree with alot of this I got robbed once while on a walk because a man who looked to be homeless started riding next to me and I wanted to be nice and instead of telling him to get lost I engaged him in convo and he knocked me down and stole my ring thank goodness I didnt get hurt seriously but there is bad in this world and not everyone is a good person I still to this day talk to strangers I for one did grow up sheltered in a very small town school community we didnt get into politics wars all the bad that happens I still sometimes worry that I come off to harsh and I realize I constantly apologize if I even THINK I offended someone lol

right. depends on where you were raised too. i'm from a small Southern town, and I too never want to offend anyone and want to think the best of people. in Whitney's situation, IF she did give him a ride willingly at first, I'm sure she didn't sense danger because he is a JW. I would not be afraid of my neighbor that attends my Church. after all this, however, i won't ever give him a ride.

 

[crazymomof4]

I saw the GMA interview with Clint. It looked like they caught him outside his apartment or somewhere. It was not a formal sit down interview, just kinda like a reporter stopped him on his way somewhere.

It was so sad when he said " She was just a beautiful little person". Something like that. I know in several of the pictures of them together he's looking down at her while holding her. Just so sweet.

I thought the same thing... that the reporters caught him and it was not in him to be rude and yell, "get outa my face, wouldya" so he trudged through it to appease them. He didn't turn all the way and face them like he was enjoying being in front of the cameras. It seemed to me like he was still half turned in the direction he'd been heading and stayed that way so he could quickly exit.
My husband is 6' and I'm 5'3" and for 27 yrs he's been teasing me about me being "little". Maybe it was the same running joke w/ the Heichels and that is why it came out of his mouth so naturally.?

 

[Ashfox]

im not sure how well he hid things from his spouse but something feels horribly wrong about the fact that he moved into the same apt complex as C and W

 

[crazymomof4]

They're charging him with each crime he committed... i.e. in the course of committing murder, he also committed robbery and murdered to conceal it; he committed rape and murdered to conceal it; he committed kidnapping and murdered to conceal it; he committed sodomy and murdered to conceal it, and so on and so forth.

ETA: each felony he committed in the course of committing murder and committing murder to conceal his felonies is an additional charge.

Thanks for that explanation. So basically he did many heinous things in a very short period of time.

 

[FruitTingles]

Just an fyi, I was taught to be polite (not nice) and because I had a very wise and protective father he encouraged me how to politely tell someone to get lost. Believe you me it's saved me a couple of times.

Sorry but I am confused as to what your post is in relation to?

 

[justwannahelp]

Sorry but I am confused as to what your post is in relation to?

in a nutshell. earlier, someone was saying that ladies just can't be nice anymore. then someone argued that we can't stop being nice because the odds of a freak crime like this are very slim. i think everyone is respecting the both opinions and we are moving on.

 

[gwenabob]

i agree...i would guess that it maybe that he is sort of blaming her for allowing him into the car...idk? but i would think that if he pulled a gun on her before they were in the car she would have screamed for help and prolly would have alerted someone if not her husband who had that day off...so, i think maybe he did wait till the car was in motion...

and why the hell did he shoot her 4 times! :furious:

Maybe she was running away? Regardless, it is the typical overkill you see with these kinds of crimes of passion.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

When JH was arrested I made a scathing remark about him. Afterward I began to feel badly about not adhering to the innocent until proven guilty rule of the law toward someone accused of committing a crime. I debated whether or not to post a follow up to my original post in order to soften it and to blame my outburst on my emotional state at the time.

After hearing his charges today and that he's admitted what he did, I'm glad I didn't waste my time defending my opinion or taking it back. Sometimes circumstances seem obvious as they unfold. What a terrible fate for Whitney. I'll never understand the depths of despicable actions some people take and how they can walk around fooling people for years. Cases like this help me clarify my belief regarding the death penalty. Why should we waste resources and energy on someone like him. There are enough good people who are down and out who can use help in ways that will make a difference in society.

What happened to Whitney is truly an example of hell playing out on earth. Victims so often seem to be the brightest lights. My personal faith is centered in Christ so I don't know about the JW religion. I'm sorry for her family and their loss of their beautiful young lady.

 

[lucimhome]

Just an fyi, I was taught to be polite (not nice) and because I had a very wise and protective father he encouraged me how to politely tell someone to get lost. Believe you me it's saved me a couple of times.

What the heck are you saying? way out there.......

 

[sissylala]

Thank you! I remember reading that JW took great care to avoid any appearance of impropriety in those kinds of situations.

Personally I would be caught off guard it someone else's husband, a peer no less, asked me for a ride. I'm sure if WH had a choice she would have avoided being alone with JH. It either didn't go down how he said or he lied about the urgency of the situation when he asked for a ride and didn't give her a chance to say no.

Even my best friends's husband would probably rather walk 5 miles than ask me for a ride alone. I would certainly think its odd for someone else's husband under the age of 60 associated with my congregation my to know how things work and still ask for a ride.

 

[nervous_nellie]

i agree with all the above comments where did he say he needed a ride to? but seriously how creepy is it that its probablly still dark out and you have a person even a person you know asking you for a ride early in the am when they are married and could just ask their spouse also i can see whitney going back into the house telling clint since we know he was up at least some before she left and if he had helped with this perps bike in the past also he doesnt live across the street so wth are you doing lurking around my car... this is what makes me think that he forced her much sooner... i am sure she thought why didnt he just call someone or call us why come over here and we know he didnt go up to the door so its even more suspect to be outside lurking around the parking lot

exactly...why didnt he go to their apt. and ask clint for a ride? this just burns me up...i really hope he gets whats coming to him.

 

[tiredblondy]

Sorry but I am confused as to what your post is in relation to?

The comments about being raised to be nice to people and don't make people mad, etc.

 

[surrogatemom]

Is that area known to have a meth problem?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was high as a kite. JMO but it would explain why he was up and about so early in the morning. It would also explain the sexual aspect, the obsession, the planned crime yet unplanned execution of it.
Would they have tested him to see if he had any drugs in his system?

I agree it's also possible he threw his phone by accident, thinking it was Whitney's.

FWIW I think his wife realised he had some kind of obsession with Whitney.

:moo::moo:

BBM. And yes, to answer your question. Portland and the outlying communities are known for meth problems. They issues are HUGE here.

I also wonder if they would test him? Hmm.