Our university teaches that Patsy did it

[Nuisanceposter]

How do you know there was never a kidnapping intended? What facts do you have that indicate the kidnapping was always a ruse? How do you know that at the time the RN was written, the perp's intention wasn't kidnapping? In a botched kidnapping, do you think that the perp was going to bother to update the RN to keep the reader informed on what ultimately happened to JBR?

I believe the fact that JonBenet was found in the basement indicates that this was never meant to be a kidnapping. Why not take the child, even if she ends up dead during the course of the kidnapping? They could still ransom the body. And if she's gone, the Ramseys have no way of knowing if she's dead or alive. Nothing but a ruse, and I'm sure the claim to represent a foreign faction is just as valid as the claim to be kidnapping JonBenet.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I believe the fact that JonBenet was found in the basement indicates that this was never meant to be a kidnapping. Why not take the child, even if she ends up dead during the course of the kidnapping? They could still ransom the body. And if she's gone, the Ramseys have no way of knowing if she's dead or alive. Nothing but a ruse, and I'm sure the claim to represent a foreign faction is just as valid as the claim to be kidnapping JonBenet.

"And if she's gone, the Ramsey's have no way of knowing if she's dead or alive."

I respectfully disagree. They have only to wait for the phone call, and then demand the kidnappers prove she's alive before paying the ransom. You need a live abductee to get a ransom. That's pretty basic stuff. Nobody ever collected a ransom on a dead abductee.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The point is, contents of the note is not evidence - the note itself is.

The RN contains a series of statements made by the killer of JBR. Each statement made by the perp is evidence. It may be helpful for you to look up the word evidence in the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evidence).

Here's a list of the 32 documentary statements made by the killer of JBR, each one admissible as evidence:

1. Mr. Ramsey:
2. Listen carefully!
3. We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
4. We respect your business but not the country that it serves.
5. At this time we have your daughter in our possession.
6. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
7. You will withdraw $118,000 from your account.
8. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
9. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
10. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.
11. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
12. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.
13. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pickup of your daughter.
14. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
15. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
16. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
17. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded.
18. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
19. If you alert bank authorities, she dies.
20. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
21. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
22. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
23. You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us.
24. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
25. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities.
26. Don't try to grow a brain, John.
27. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult.
28. Don't underestimate us, John.
29. Use that good, southern common sense of yours.
30. It's up to you now, John!
31. Victory!
32. S.B.T.C.

 

[Jayelles]

If the Ransom note was written specifically to throw police off the scent and contained a whole pile of red herrings, would you consider each of these red herrings to be "evidence"?

 

[mjak]

I thik there is some confusion here about what Evidence is. Evidence is Evidnence because it is directly related to a case Not because it is true or relevant. The entire ransom note could be a bunch of falsehoods but its still a very important piece of evidence. It is directly related to a horrible crime. Pesumubly written by the perpertator of the crime.
I would consider every red herring in the ransome letter as evidence because each and every one of them is the construction of the alleged killer. Anything from the crime scene that can give us insight to this killer is an important piece of evidence.

mjak

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I thik there is some confusion here about what Evidence is. Evidence is Evidnence because it is directly related to a case Not because it is true or relevant. The entire ransom note could be a bunch of falsehoods but its still a very important piece of evidence. It is directly related to a horrible crime. Pesumubly written by the perpertator of the crime.
I would consider every red herring in the ransome letter as evidence because each and every one of them is the construction of the alleged killer. Anything from the crime scene that can give us insight to this killer is an important piece of evidence.

mjak

True, but to glean insight from the RN requires an open mind.

p.s. IMO its safe to assume the RN was written by a perpetrator of the crime.

 

[Moab]

I respectfully disagree. They have only to wait for the phone call, and then demand the kidnappers prove she's alive before paying the ransom. You need a live abductee to get a ransom. That's pretty basic stuff. Nobody ever collected a ransom on a dead abductee.

It is also pretty basic stuff to EITHER leave a note OR take the person...not leave a note and NOT take the person. It was a coverup through and through.

Brefie is correct,

The point is, contents of the note is not evidence - the note itself is.

Do the words "Once upon a time..." ring a bell with you? They may as well have started the RN with thouse words - fiction is FICTION!

 

[Moab]

True, but to glean insight from the RN requires an open mind.

p.s. IMO its safe to assume the RN was written by a perpetrator of the crime.

I agree here...one who got away with murder, however that doesn't rule out Miss Patsy!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It is also pretty basic stuff to EITHER leave a note OR take the person...not leave a note and NOT take the person. It was a coverup through and through.

Brefie is correct,





Do the words "Once upon a time..." ring a bell with you? They may as well have started the RN with thouse words - fiction is FICTION!

To repeat,

In a botched kidnapping (something went wrong getting JBR out of the house), I don't think the perp's going to bother to update the RN to keep the reader informed on what ultimately happened to JBR.

At the time the note was written by the intruder(s), a kidnapping could have been the plan. Did you have some fact that contradicts this POV? Or is it just an opinion?

 

[sissi]

Why is everyone so certain she wasn't kidnapped? I have always considered the possibility that she was, and whoever was a control person in the kidnappers life insisted she be "put back". Taking her would bring about police action which would have included looking in garages and perhaps houses nearby .The perp's "mother/wife" knew it less likely he would be arrested if the body were returned to the house. It worked!

 

[deanws]

I thik there is some confusion here about what Evidence is. Evidence is Evidnence because it is directly related to a case Not because it is true or relevant. The entire ransom note could be a bunch of falsehoods but its still a very important piece of evidence. It is directly related to a horrible crime. Pesumubly written by the perpertator of the crime.
I would consider every red herring in the ransome letter as evidence because each and every one of them is the construction of the alleged killer. Anything from the crime scene that can give us insight to this killer is an important piece of evidence.

mjak

There is only ONE person on this thread that doesn't seem to understand what evidence is. It is like beating that dead horse Bre and I were talking about this weekend. :doh: Your post is a good explanation.:dance:

 

[mjak]

Why is everyone so certain she wasn't kidnapped? I have always considered the possibility that she was, and whoever was a control person in the kidnappers life insisted she be "put back". Taking her would bring about police action which would have included looking in garages and perhaps houses nearby .The perp's "mother/wife" knew it less likely he would be arrested if the body were returned to the house. It worked!

I think this scenerio is a bit unlikley. It would require not only a demented perpertrator but a wife or significant other who was equally deplorable. I mean this is not a case of a kid bringing home a stray dog and a parent saying put that dog back where you found it. This would involve a person bringing home a stolen child and potential a dead one!!!!!, and a significant other reacting by just saying please return that child you killed or kidnapped back where got it from.....
I pray that a scenerio like this one would not happen in this world.

mjak

 

[Brefie]

Why is everyone so certain she wasn't kidnapped? I have always considered the possibility that she was, and whoever was a control person in the kidnappers life insisted she be "put back". Taking her would bring about police action which would have included looking in garages and perhaps houses nearby .The perp's "mother/wife" knew it less likely he would be arrested if the body were returned to the house. It worked!

Wouldn't there have been fiber or other evidence on JBR?

 

[sissi]

I think this scenerio is a bit unlikley. It would require not only a demented perpertrator but a wife or significant other who was equally deplorable. I mean this is not a case of a kid bringing home a stray dog and a parent saying put that dog back where you found it. This would involve a person bringing home a stolen child and potential a dead one!!!!!, and a significant other reacting by just saying please return that child you killed or kidnapped back where got it from.....
I pray that a scenerio like this one would not happen in this world.

mjak

Isn't this exactly what most think of the Ramseys, all covering for a killer?

 

[sissi]

Wouldn't there have been fiber or other evidence on JBR?

You have heard about the four red acrylic fibers, however did you hear about the many, many others on her that could NOT be "considered consistent" to anything in the house?

 

[mjak]

Isn't this exactly what most think of the Ramseys, all covering for a killer?

I don't know. Prehaps some people believe a scenerio where one Ramsey is responsible for Jonbenets death and the other is covering up for that person.
However, this rendition would require an accidental death of some sort. What you are purposing is a demented person delibertly kidnapping and prehaps murdering a child and bringing them home and another adult just reacting to that by saying taking that child back.... This I find hard to swallow. Of couse anything is possible.

 

[Nehemiah]

Why is everyone so certain she wasn't kidnapped? I have always considered the possibility that she was, and whoever was a control person in the kidnappers life insisted she be "put back". Taking her would bring about police action which would have included looking in garages and perhaps houses nearby .The perp's "mother/wife" knew it less likely he would be arrested if the body were returned to the house. It worked!

Anything is possible, but I think that would have been way too risky for the perp to have come back inside the house with the child.

I think it's enough of a stretch to think that the perp backed himself into that windowless room with no way out had someone surprised him whilst he was posing JB in there.

 

[Lacy Wood]

You need a live abductee to get a ransom. That's pretty basic stuff. Nobody ever collected a ransom on a dead abductee.

The most famous kidnapping case of all time involved paying a ransom for a dead abductee, namely the Lindberg baby. I am also aware there have been a substantial number of other such cases.

The "foreign faction" and "kidnapping" comments are part of the note which is evidence, but they do not establish what we call evidence in the sense of validating themselves as underlying reality. They are sort of like an accused stating that "Somebody else did it", or "I've got an alibi". What he says can be brought up in court, but it is absolutely not evidence that what he said was true! The claim does not confirm itself. It becomes evidence when proved or disproved. The author could have written "I am Patsy Ramsey". That would also not be evidence that Patsy wrote it. At this point, there is no evidence of a foreign faction intent on kidnapping.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Your point on Lindburg is valid, but not really applicable. You can't confirm the identity of a baby over the phone, but I'm sure JBR's parents would have demanded proof of JBR's well-being before paying any ransom. I'm interested in the "substantial number" of ransoms that have been paid for dead people, though.

Sure there's evidence of a foreign faction intent on kidnapping. There's just no published corroborating evidence. There's more evidence of a foreign faction than there is of a postal worker.

If you're an attorney, don't forget to bring the RN with you, because its evidence.

There's evidence the perp can't spell 'business'.

There's evidence the perp doesn't like 'fat cats' or the U.S.

 

[aussiesheila]

How do you know that at the time the RN was written, the perp's intention wasn't kidnapping?

Holdontoyourhat, are you suggesting that this is a possibility?