PA PA - Betsy Aardsma, 22, murdered in Pattee Library, Penn State, 29 Nov 1969

[littlehorn]

Darn I was afraid of that. The Trooper sounds open. But the admin not so. This case has seemed to be held for a long time very close to the vest. After all these years what would it hurt?

I hope a relative would be able to bring it - but it is so much better when LE does because then they would get to see the case file.

Question for you Littlehorn - the avenue you are looking at - do you think this was a one time incident? Or do you think the person that did this committed other crimes? Do you think that this person killed more than Betsy?

I was hoping they would loosen up too, at least enough to present it to a bunch of fellow LE professionals like the VS. I don't know why they are holding it so close after all these years...

Apparently even if a relative brings it up, VS talks directly with the police and the relatives are cut out of the picture after the initial submission.

The avenue(s) I am looking at are, based on what information I have now, both one-off type events. Not a pattern where either suspect went on to commit other murders or crimes.

In fact I think the killer may have gone on to have a successful career in one case.

 

[littlehorn]

I misunderstood then..so LE would have to consent no matter what, even if the family insisted upon having the VS look at the case. I still wish someone in the family would start investigating this again. It may be too painful for the siblings to want to pursue it, I can certainly understand that.

Right, family can submit the case, but if LE decides to go to VS with it, the family is then cut out of further updates or information. They ONLY work with LE in any case.

I almost wish there was a group like VS that was more open, and less of a "secret club" whereby they would allow people like ourselves to submit cases. I surely have enough information that I could present a pretty strong picture of the case to them.

 

[cbcrime]

Frustrating. Do you think any of your potential suspects - made the shrine in the 90's? This is why a profiler would come in so handy. They could give clues to the personality traits of this kind of killer. If it is either one you suspect then they've done a good job of compartmentalizing their life.

LE really gets me - I sometimes feel like ego is more important to some of them than finding the solution. It is not all LE - but some are just so unwilling to let other professionals help.

 

[littlehorn]

Frustrating. Do you think any of your potential suspects - made the shrine in the 90's? This is why a profiler would come in so handy. They could give clues to the personality traits of this kind of killer. If it is either one you suspect then they've done a good job of compartmentalizing their life.

LE really gets me - I sometimes feel like ego is more important to some of them than finding the solution. It is not all LE - but some are just so unwilling to let other professionals help.

Either of the suspects could potentially have created the shrine in the 1990s, or sent the taunting postcard to police in 1979.

I really don't know if it's ego in the PSP's case here, or if it's just some bizarre policy on their part. It seems like the state police in other areas are more receptive to citizen assistance, as seen on the Dateline-type shows as well as evidenced by the posts in these forums.

 

[Talisman]

Right, family can submit the case, but if LE decides to go to VS with it, the family is then cut out of further updates or information. They ONLY work with LE in any case.

I almost wish there was a group like VS that was more open, and less of a "secret club" whereby they would allow people like ourselves to submit cases. I surely have enough information that I could present a pretty strong picture of the case to them.

littlehorn,

My heart sunk when I read your post. Really wanted to have them look at the case.

Do you know of any other groups like that at all? At least ones with some credibility?

 

[littlehorn]

My heart sunk when I read your post. Really wanted to have them look at the case.

Do you know of any other groups like that at all? At least ones with some credibility?

Not that I know of. I am in touch with some PI's and former PSP members who do cold case work privately and will talk to them.

I don't know that Vidocq could have provided what is needed most: the motivation to solve this case by the authorities.

 

[MaryLiz]

Regarding LE's handling of this case, something littlehorn said in post 323 sticks in my mind.

"Police were calling it unsolvable within 2 years of the killing. Yet some of my sources have quoted individual officers as saying "We know who did it, we just don't have enough evidence." as early as 1970."

I firmly believe some (not all) of LE believes this to be true. They won't let anyone see the files and apparently there is a name (or two) in the files of a suspect that most of them believe is guilty. I have seen that happen in other cases. Another case I follow is the one of the three missing women who vanished from Springfield, MO in 1992. Evidently the Missouri Grand Jury named three individuals who they were sure committed the women's murder but they were never indicted for lack of evidence. So now LE in Springfield won't listen to anyone or give out any info at all. Even people who call in tips are just dismissed! I don't think that is entirely the case involving the LE in charge of Betsy's murder since littlehorn said that Trooper Bernier is willing to help. But maybe HIS bosses and some others in the PSP believe they have the name of the suspect in the files but they don't have enough evidence, and now that nearly 40 years have gone by, it's unsolvable. I would think they would react just the opposite of that and try to do EVERYTHING in their power to still move things along and TRY to get evidence against this person who they think did it. Getting the Vidocq Society to take this case would have been a HUGE step in the right direction. So would hiring a profiler. I just can't understand why some members of LE think a case is not able to be solved just because it's too old. I guess they reason if there was no evidence back then, there surely wouldn't be any 40 years down the road. But there are people like the VS and profilers who could help them work towards trying to solve it.

I'm glad at least the trooper in charge is trying to be helpful and is listening to you, Derek. I know there are probably others who have been willing to listen and appreciate your efforts as well. It's just a shame that all of LE isn't as cooperative.

 

[Gina_M]

I really don't know if it's ego in the PSP's case here, or if it's just some bizarre policy on their part. It seems like the state police in other areas are more receptive to citizen assistance, as seen on the Dateline-type shows as well as evidenced by the posts in these forums.

I wonder if it has something to do with PA privacy laws. I recently moved here from another state, and when I was transferring my car insurance policy over here, the lady at State Farm remarked about how much of my policy info was printed on my old out-of-state card. She mentioned that PA is very big on privacy and my new card wouldn't have all the same info on it. I noticed the same thing at the doctor's out here - I had to specify what phone number they could call me at to disclose test results, whether they could leave a message, etc. So I am thinking it is something to do with PA laws.

 

[littlehorn]

I firmly believe some (not all) of LE believes this to be true. They won't let anyone see the files and apparently there is a name (or two) in the files of a suspect that most of them believe is guilty. I have seen that happen in other cases. Another case I follow is the one of the three missing women who vanished from Springfield, MO in 1992. Evidently the Missouri Grand Jury named three individuals who they were sure committed the women's murder but they were never indicted for lack of evidence. So now LE in Springfield won't listen to anyone or give out any info at all. Even people who call in tips are just dismissed! I don't think that is entirely the case involving the LE in charge of Betsy's murder since littlehorn said that Trooper Bernier is willing to help. But maybe HIS bosses and some others in the PSP believe they have the name of the suspect in the files but they don't have enough evidence, and now that nearly 40 years have gone by, it's unsolvable. I would think they would react just the opposite of that and try to do EVERYTHING in their power to still move things along and TRY to get evidence against this person who they think did it. Getting the Vidocq Society to take this case would have been a HUGE step in the right direction. So would hiring a profiler. I just can't understand why some members of LE think a case is not able to be solved just because it's too old. I guess they reason if there was no evidence back then, there surely wouldn't be any 40 years down the road. But there are people like the VS and profilers who could help them work towards trying to solve it.

I'm glad at least the trooper in charge is trying to be helpful and is listening to you, Derek. I know there are probably others who have been willing to listen and appreciate your efforts as well. It's just a shame that all of LE isn't as cooperative.

I think perhaps you are right. If they feel they have it nailed down, but not enough evidence to fully prosecute it, they may just keep it locked up for everyone.

Although, especially in cases like these, it seems as though the advances in technology, etc., might give them the incentive to try to re-examine the case in light of what is available today.

I may be making some connections which can help, though.

 

[littlehorn]

I wonder if it has something to do with PA privacy laws. I recently moved here from another state, and when I was transferring my car insurance policy over here, the lady at State Farm remarked about how much of my policy info was printed on my old out-of-state card. She mentioned that PA is very big on privacy and my new card wouldn't have all the same info on it. I noticed the same thing at the doctor's out here - I had to specify what phone number they could call me at to disclose test results, whether they could leave a message, etc. So I am thinking it is something to do with PA laws.

PA is kind of a contradiction when it comes to privacy. On one hand, you have the laws like you are talking about, which protect certain aspects of privacy.

On the other hand, PA prides itself for being ahead of other states with regards to how much information they make available digitally/online.

You would be shocked if you knew how much I could find out about you simply by knowing your name and address. In some counties it goes as far as being able to find a floor plan of your house online, for free, in about 10 minutes, along with how your house is heated, etc. etc.

I've always felt PA was a weird state, way behind the times. A lot of it relates to being that it's not really a "state," but a Commonwealth. There's a whole bunch of different stuff relating to being a Commonwealth that other states that are incorporated differently do not have.

 

[Talisman]

Regarding LE's handling of this case, something littlehorn said in post 323 sticks in my mind.

"Police were calling it unsolvable within 2 years of the killing. Yet some of my sources have quoted individual officers as saying "We know who did it, we just don't have enough evidence." as early as 1970."

I firmly believe some (not all) of LE believes this to be true. They won't let anyone see the files and apparently there is a name (or two) in the files of a suspect that most of them believe is guilty.

*snipped*

MaryBeth,

That is something that just frustrates me so much about this case. Why on earth would they not want any and all help they can get? It has been nearly 40 years since the murder! 40 years. What reasoning can they possibly have of keeping information hidden? Sure there are probably things that they can't release for fear of hindering the case. But this mentality of ' These files on the Betsy Aardsma murder are ours and for our eyes only' is starting to sound almost childish.



Gina, welcome to Pa. I hope you feel at home here. littlehorn is correct, though. Pa. is contradicting in so many ways. Parts of the state feel very laid back with almost a southern flavor. But then most of the time you feel as if you are in New England (esp. in Autumn)

 

[MaryLiz]

*snipped*

MaryBeth,

That is something that just frustrates me so much about this case. Why on earth would they not want any and all help they can get? It has been nearly 40 years since the murder! 40 years. What reasoning can they possibly have of keeping information hidden? Sure there are probably things that they can't release for fear of hindering the case. But this mentality of ' These files on the Betsy Aardsma murder are ours and for our eyes only' is starting to sound almost childish.



Gina, welcome to Pa. I hope you feel at home here. littlehorn is correct, though. Pa. is contradicting in so many ways. Parts of the state feel very laid back with almost a southern flavor. But then most of the time you feel as if you are in New England (esp. in Autumn)

I agree, Talisman. It makes no sense to keep info hidden, and to turn down outside help. Sometimes I think it's a matter of pride, too. But that's just ridiculous.

And littlehorn, I hope I didn't discourage you. I know you've run into brick walls on this case, but for the life of me, I can never figure out why LE turns down outside help that may be instrumental in solving a cold case. But you've done great work so far and you really should keep going because you never know, one day it's very possible to break through one of those brick walls and get a tip or a lead that could help solve the case!

 

[littlehorn]

40 years.[/B] What reasoning can they possibly have of keeping information hidden? Sure there are probably things that they can't release for fear of hindering the case. But this mentality of ' These files on the Betsy Aardsma murder are ours and for our eyes only' is starting to sound almost childish.

It reminds me of Lord of the Rings. They have "the precious" and they don't want anyone else to have it.

Sad really, when it could be as simple as putting it before a bunch of people who have experience with modern criminal investigation techniques and who work for free.

 

[littlehorn]

I agree, Talisman. It makes no sense to keep info hidden, and to turn down outside help. Sometimes I think it's a matter of pride, too. But that's just ridiculous.

And littlehorn, I hope I didn't discourage you. I know you've run into brick walls on this case, but for the life of me, I can never figure out why LE turns down outside help that may be instrumental in solving a cold case. But you've done great work so far and you really should keep going because you never know, one day it's very possible to break through one of those brick walls and get a tip or a lead that could help solve the case!

Some of the things I've heard about how the police in that area of the state run investigations, even to this day, are almost laughable -- if they weren't so bumbling that they virtually preclude solving the crime.

I will say this, if you were going to commit a crime, and not get caught, Centre county would be a great place to do it.

Again, here in York County, someone gets whacked/driveby/drug deal gone bad/whatever and the police have it locked down and someone is in custody within 8-12 hours. Even if there is no relation between the suspect and the victim.

I'll keep working on this until I personally feel that the police won't do anything to solve it even if given to them. At that point I will walk away.

I'm thinking about contacting a congressman or state senator and asking for some help with this whole thing, but I have some other avenues to pursue first.

 

[Talisman]

Some of the things I've heard about how the police in that area of the state run investigations, even to this day, are almost laughable -- if they weren't so bumbling that they virtually preclude solving the crime.

I will say this, if you were going to commit a crime, and not get caught, Centre county would be a great place to do it.

Again, here in York County, someone gets whacked/driveby/drug deal gone bad/whatever and the police have it locked down and someone is in custody within 8-12 hours. Even if there is no relation between the suspect and the victim.

I'll keep working on this until I personally feel that the police won't do anything to solve it even if given to them. At that point I will walk away.

I'm thinking about contacting a congressman or state senator and asking for some help with this whole thing, but I have some other avenues to pursue first.

littlehorn,

I don't mean to go off topic --- but Centre county is a joke!!! Their very own District Attorney vanishes and the so called 'investigation' that followed was a disgrace! Ray Gricar seems to have been completely forgotten, not only by LE out there, but by the citizens he worked for.

Back to Betsy Aardsma. I agree with MaryBeth, you have come so far with her case. I, and I'm sure others feel the same, cannot praise you enough. You have come up with some great ideas about getting Betsy's story heard. If you do contact congressmen and senators, let us know. Maybe e-mails from some of us along with your contacting them will help push things along.

 

[kline]

I would love to ask them what they consider the worst case scenario they could envision releasing the information or accepting outside help?
The case gets colder or MORE unsolved????/
By rights they should be shaking the bushes and trying to bring closure to this case half as hard as Littlehorn.
Of course its their job while Littlehorn obviously just cares.

 

[Trino]

*snipped*

MaryBeth,

That is something that just frustrates me so much about this case. Why on earth would they not want any and all help they can get? It has been nearly 40 years since the murder! 40 years. What reasoning can they possibly have of keeping information hidden? Sure there are probably things that they can't release for fear of hindering the case. But this mentality of ' These files on the Betsy Aardsma murder are ours and for our eyes only' is starting to sound almost childish.

Contrast this with the murder of the two Oklahoma girls. Already there are photos of a POI. Most info has been very public, and I'll bet they solve their case.

 

[littlehorn]

littlehorn,

I don't mean to go off topic --- but Centre county is a joke!!! Their very own District Attorney vanishes and the so called 'investigation' that followed was a disgrace! Ray Gricar seems to have been completely forgotten, not only by LE out there, but by the citizens he worked for.

Back to Betsy Aardsma. I agree with MaryBeth, you have come so far with her case. I, and I'm sure others feel the same, cannot praise you enough. You have come up with some great ideas about getting Betsy's story heard. If you do contact congressmen and senators, let us know. Maybe e-mails from some of us along with your contacting them will help push things along.

It really does blow my mind how badly Centre County has handled some of these cases. I can see not solving the Aardsma case -- it is a tough one -- but then you have Dana Bailey in '87 -- Gricar released the wrong picture of the victim to the newspapers, for example; and at one point someone tried to call in an anonymous tip on who the killer was to the Police Chief. The receptionist told the caller: "He's not here, you'll have to call back later." The caller hung up without giving the tip and never called back.

Then you have Cindy Song, which they treated like a runaway case, and by the time 2 weeks or so later that they got around to requesting the surveillance footage from the convenience store she may have visited before she disappeared, it had already been taped over. OOPS!

Then Gricar. I just can't comprehend it. But knowing what I know from some folks I've talked to, it's par for the course up there. Not just slamming PSP -- apparently the local cops are just as bad.

I will let you know what I end up doing and if there's any way some extra letters will help, I'll definitely call in that favor from you guys.

 

[littlehorn]

I would love to ask them what they consider the worst case scenario they could envision releasing the information or accepting outside help?
The case gets colder or MORE unsolved????/
By rights they should be shaking the bushes and trying to bring closure to this case half as hard as Littlehorn.
Of course its their job while Littlehorn obviously just cares.

I was told for example that, when we gave them a suspect, that the police could not go request fingerprints from him or talk to him again without a warrant or probable cause.

However, some former PSP guys I've talked to told me that's BS -- the State Police could go talk to ANYONE involved in a case like this and ask them for prints; if the person refuses, then they would need a warrant. Just a lot of little inconsistencies leading up to me thinking that this is either a pride issue, or something darker.

Like you, I wonder: So they show the case file to someone, and it turns out to be Tom Brokaw, and he runs a 13-hour marathon just showing all the pages and pictures on NBC. What is their reaction: "Nooooo!! We were SO CLOSE!! Now we'll NEVER solve it!"

 

[littlehorn]

Contrast this with the murder of the two Oklahoma girls. Already there are photos of a POI. Most info has been very public, and I'll bet they solve their case.

So many cases like this, where the police start putting out information, and the public is able to assist by giving up information about the person and the case.

These usually get solved.

When you don't even tell the whole story all along, the likelihood of someone recognizing a suspect or suspicious behavior becomes greatly decreased.