PA PA - Cpl. Robert Corriveau, 20, Downington, 18 Nov 1968

[Bounceycat]

How many miles is it from Philadelphia to Lancaster ? 80+ ?

About 74 miles if you take primarily Rt 30, about 92mi if you take the turnpike. That's from Broad St to center city Lancaster.

 

[Richard]

I have read every post. It prompted me to contact you because of what you were writing. I thought talking to you might help find my brothers muderer. You would now have accurate information from a direct source to add to his story.

You started to write a detailed narrative containing additional information. Information I didn't feel was necessary to disclose, "he was classified as being awol and then declared a deserter" was pertinent to his case. I think giving the dates he disappeared from the hospital were sufficient. He was a decorated Marine found murdered not identified for 43 years..

You then added Besty Aardsma into the his story which I personally did not see any connection to Bobby's case. I passed this info on to the PSP and gave them this link to follow. I think somewhere along the line different opinions started to come into play. Some of the comments obviously bothered me. After he was identified it was recommended a new thread be started and the thread became the cold case of the now identified Cpl Robert Daniel Corriveau, USMC. That was where it belongs now.

You had given me the story of Betsy Aardsma and your theory of it being so similar to Bobby's case. Right down to the weapon type and your opinion of who you thought committed her murder.

I provided all the info contained in his Service Record book. I gave personal detailed information I thought might help the investigators with the case. I had to relive the horrible scene of Bobby being removed from our home. I had nightmares. My normal weight of 110 lbs weight dropped down to 82 lbs in 4 months because I couldn't keep food down. I needed to do this for the sake of my brother in the hope of finding his murderer.

The info you say you provided to the PSP in 2009 was forgotten, buried in a pile. They didn't contact NCIS until 2011.

Because the PSP thought Bobby was a Marine they contacted NCIS. On Octber 11. 2011, I was contacted by the Marine Corp who asked me if I could identify any marks, tattoos healed bullet wounds, and scars for my missing brother Robert Daniel Corriveau.

As far as the dog tags, id, licenses and wallet, they were at my parents house. I saw them. My Mother denied ever having them when she spoke to John. She made me look like a liar. The duffel bag I told John about was in the basement closet, my brother Tom, himself murdered in 2015 backed me up on this bag being there.

So there are two things that upset me in all your repeated posts. The reference of the Betsy Aardsma case, and Haefner as her possible unproven killer. This doesn't belong attached to my brothers case. The second is your repeated narrative of of my brother being awol and a deserter because that is protocol when a military man/woman is missing. You have been told that all of his records have been corrected.

The PSP actually did contact NCIS in late 2009 shortly after I spoke by phone with the case officer, Corporal Patrick Quigley. He was very receptive of my suggestions regarding connections to the Navy and Marine Corps.

The delay you mention occurred at NCIS. It seems to have taken some time before they contacted the Marine Corps. NCIS might have had certain protocols to follow first? Once the Marines got the request, action picked up quickly!

In 2009, the only website to list the "unidentified" case was the Pennsylvania State Police site. The only way to contact them was by phone. I followed up my phone call to CPL Quigley with an email message which was worded exactly like my 15 March 2010 Websleuths post.

I have always been careful to explain that the declaration of desertion is a mandatory and standard administrative procedure followed when a service member has been missing for 30 days. It is NOT a criminal charge or conviction. Because I knew of this long-standing procedure, I knew that there was a possibility of identifying him through that specific Marine Corps unit, but that NCIS should be the agency first contacted by PSP.

It was precisely because of those procedures that the Marine Corps was very quick to identify Robert and to locate and notify you. Again, protocol enters into everything they do.

Tom and John worked very hard to publicize the case and to locate possible witnesses who might provide information and insight. We worked together to comb through old, archived records of the Philadelphia Naval Hospital and found names of patients and staff. Many of them were located and interviewed. They spoke with the Warrant Officer who was in charge of the Marine Corps Admin unit near the hospital, to several Navy Corpsmen, two nurses, and a number of Marines who were patients there in 1968. They also spoke with Marines who served with Robert in various bases and units.

Unfortunately, very little information could be found which would indicate where Robert went or what he did prior to his death. This has led to a lot of speculation. I have theories today, as I did back in 2009, which I try to base on known facts, common sense, and personal experience. We know what the weather was that weekend: cold (between 40 and 50 degrees Fahrenheit) and clear. Since he was gone from the hospital for the weekend, he would need a coat to wear. It is likely that the Pea Coat was one he bought or borrowed to wear.

You say he liked to drink. However, having been hospitalized (and probably medicated) for a month, he probably could not have had many drinks before getting drunk. What other things did he like? What activities, sports, movies, music, etc. did he like? Where would he go on liberty?

There are a number of different colleges in and around Philadelphia which would have had concerts, football games, activities, and parties that he might have visited. The hospital would have had a USO office in or near it which would have put out information about things for service men to do and see. Often, they have discounted ticket sales and even free tickets to hand out. Maybe knowing what they had been suggesting or advertising would provide clues.

For example, there was a live concert by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster on Saturday Night, 16 November 1968. Tickets cost $4. Could Robert have hitched a ride there?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

About 74 miles if you take primarily Rt 30, about 92mi if you take the turnpike. That's from Broad St to center city Lancaster.

Depending on time of day, the Turnpike might be quicker.

 

[Richard]

I know all of this. I have all the records. I completely disagree with your opinion of his ID, dog tags, wallet and license.

What is your theory as to how his Military ID card, dog tags, wallet and driver's license came to be in your mother's possession?

 

[jacksonbrown]

He had them with him when he came to the house and when he left

 

[jacksonbrown]

The PSP actually did contact NCIS in late 2009 shortly after I spoke by phone with the case officer, Corporal Patrick Quigley. He was very receptive of my suggestions regarding connections to the Navy and Marine Corps.

The delay you mention occurred at NCIS. It seems to have taken some time before they contacted the Marine Corps. NCIS might have had certain protocols to follow first? Once the Marines got the request, action picked up quickly!

In 2009, the only website to list the "unidentified" case was the Pennsylvania State Police site. The only way to contact them was by phone. I followed up my phone call to CPL Quigley with an email message which was worded exactly like my 15 March 2010 Websleuths post.

I have always been careful to explain that the declaration of desertion is a mandatory and standard administrative procedure followed when a service member has been missing for 30 days. It is NOT a criminal charge or conviction. Because I knew of this long-standing procedure, I knew that there was a possibility of identifying him through that specific Marine Corps unit, but that NCIS should be the agency first contacted by PSP.

It was precisely because of those procedures that the Marine Corps was very quick to identify Robert and to locate and notify you. Again, protocol enters into everything they do.

Tom and John worked very hard to publicize the case and to locate possible witnesses who might provide information and insight. We worked together to comb through old, archived records of the Philadelphia Naval Hospital and found names of patients and staff. Many of them were located and interviewed. They spoke with the Warrant Officer who was in charge of the Marine Corps Admin unit near the hospital, to several Navy Corpsmen, two nurses, and a number of Marines who were patients there in 1968. They also spoke with Marines who served with Robert in various bases and units.

Unfortunately, very little information could be found which would indicate where Robert went or what he did prior to his death. This has led to a lot of speculation. I have theories today, as I did back in 2009, which I try to base on known facts, common sense, and personal experience. We know what the weather was that weekend: cold (between 40 and 50 degrees Fahrenheit) and clear. Since he was gone from the hospital for the weekend, he would need a coat to wear. It is likely that the Pea Coat was one he bought or borrowed to wear.

You say he liked to drink. However, having been hospitalized (and probably medicated) for a month, he probably could not have had many drinks before getting drunk. What other things did he like? What activities, sports, movies, music, etc. did he like? Where would he go on liberty?

There are a number of different colleges in and around Philadelphia which would have had concerts, football games, activities, and parties that he might have visited. The hospital would have had a USO office in or near it which would have put out information about things for service men to do and see. Often, they have discounted ticket sales and even free tickets to hand out. Maybe knowing what they had been suggesting or advertising would provide clues.

For example, there was a live concert by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster on Saturday Night, 16 November 1968. Tickets cost $4. Could Robert have hitched a ride there?

I'm not going to go through all of this because your statements do not agree with mine, again your opinions. You spoke to Quigley, I spoke to Callithen and Waters.

I found several reports about "bulldog john doe". After speaking with NCIS and being told where his body was found, I went online and found EVERYTHING that had been posted including Websleuths. The state unidentified missing persons etc. Because I identified the "john doe" he was added to Namus.

The last page of his service record book states his classification. A copy was sent
to NCIS in December, 1968, and to the FBI. The first family visit with the FBI took place in January, 1969 at my home. He was listed on the FBI wanted list. A warrant was issued. At some point it lapsed. When I discovered this In 1992 I had the warrant re-activated.

Bobby was drinking at 13. I knew he drank, but not at 13. He admitted this to his Dr in the psychiatric report. I don't drink so I can't assume what his tolerance would have been.

I trust what I was told by the trooper who found his body. It was foggy and drizzling the morning his body was found. The trooper was there. Last week at my home it was on 35-40°. I still have 2ft of snow on the ground at my home. I can assure you it is very foggy in the morning. Yesterday the "forcast" here, said snowflurries. We got 8". My point, sometimes the reported weather is different than what it really was...

I have all the reports and records from John. All the interviews from everyone they spoke to. I personally followed up with phone calls to some they interviewed. They tried, but it had been 43 yrs. John still checks in with me and I with him.

Bobby was not the college type. He could have gone to a concert but I think it unlikely. I suspect whoever he went with was someone from the hospital, someone definitely military. I know he would have been interested in drinking. I could see him going to a boxing venue before going to a concert, but it's possible. Where did he go the prior weekend while on liberty? I suggest it was likely the same place he went the weekend his body being found.

Bobby's murder took place 12-24 hrs prior to being found.

Lancaster was a bit of a distance from the hospital. No one knows if he was heading to Lancaster. There were plenty of other places he could have gone to and still ended up being left on the turnpike.

You don't know Bobby, I do. He was not laid back or easy going.

We agree to disagree....

 

[Richard]

He had them with him when he came to the house and when he left

Then somebody other than the Navy or Marine Corps sent them to the address on his drivers license. If a letter was included, or if there was a return address, or a postmark, those would have been significant pieces of information.

Does his record indicate if he drew any pay or advances on pay while at the Philadelphia Naval Hospital?

 

[jacksonbrown]

Then somebody other than the Navy or Marine Corps sent them to the address on his drivers license. If a letter was included, or if there was a return address, or a postmark, those would have been significant pieces of information.

Does his record indicate if he drew any pay or advances on pay while at the Philadelphia Naval Hospital?

Exactly! I had to write it several times before you included all of the items and asked the complete question. I have no idea if a package would have been delivered by mail or another way. It would not be necessary to put a return address on a package if this person didn't want to be found. The same could apply to a letter, if it contained a letter.

I didn't see a reference in his records as to to whether or not he drew any advances on his pay. I don't find that so important, he could have easily had cash on him when he went to Phili and didn't need an advance.

It was my father who showed me the metal box he stored Bobbys things in. I handled that box so many times containing the Military ID, dog tags, license and wallet right up until my Dad passed away in 1993. I never asked him where they came from, how did he get them because I was afaid of what the answer could be. I didn't want to face the possibility that Bobby might be dead and never coming home. I prayed he'd come home.

It is entirely possible that it was a Navy or Marine serviceman who sent these things home. I strongly believe this. Why do you excluded them as POI's because you think they would never murder another service man? His body was left in a location so he would be found. Taking his identification would give some time to cover it up. When he was not reported missing, the murderer decided to drop all his ID in the mail and send it home. Maybe he thought his parents would look for him but they did not.

At that time there was a Naval air force base at Willow Grove and it can not be ruled out. Whether civilian or servicemen. In December it will be 57 years. I'll leave at that...

 

[Richard]

Exactly! I had to write it several times before you included all of the items and asked the complete question. I have no idea if a package would have been delivered by mail or another way. It would not be necessary to put a return address on a package if this person didn't want to be found. The same could apply to a letter, if it contained a letter.

I didn't see a reference in his records as to to whether or not he drew any advances on his pay. I don't find that so important, he could have easily had cash on him when he went to Phili and didn't need an advance.

It was my father who showed me the metal box he stored Bobbys things in. I handled that box so many times containing the Military ID, dog tags, license and wallet right up until my Dad passed away in 1993. I never asked him where they came from, how did he get them because I was afaid of what the answer could be. I didn't want to face the possibility that Bobby might be dead and never coming home. I prayed he'd come home.

It is entirely possible that it was a Navy or Marine serviceman who sent these things home. I strongly believe this. Why do you excluded them as POI's because you think they would never murder another service man? His body was left in a location so he would be found. Taking his identification would give some time to cover it up. When he was not reported missing, the murderer decided to drop all his ID in the mail and send it home. Maybe he thought his parents would look for him but they did not.

At that time there was a Naval air force base at Willow Grove and it can not be ruled out. Whether civilian or servicemen. In December it will be 57 years. I'll leave at that...

In what way have I excluded anyone (whether or not a serviceman) as a person of interest?

I compiled a large list of Navy and Marine Corps personnel who had been attached to the Philadelphia Naval Hospital in October and November 1968, which I turned over to Tom and John. I also assisted them in locating many of them.

I wouldn't call any of them "persons of interest" in the legal sense of the term, but there were some who provided context and useful information.

When I said "someone other than the Navy or Marine Corps" sent the items, I meant someone NOT in the official chain of command or personnel offices. If the records do not mention the wallet, drivers license, ID card, or tags, it would exclude them as having been in official possession.

You also mentioned that only shaving gear was left behind. This would also indicate that his wallet and ID items were NOT in Navy or Marine Corps possession.

Certainly a service member, or any person finding the items could have sent them.

 

[Richard]

...At that time there was a Naval air force base at Willow Grove and it can not be ruled out...

The Naval Air Station was a place where any serviceman might have gotten a free flight to any place an available plane happened to be headed.

It might also be a place where one could shop at the base exchange, or visit the enlisted club, or enjoy other base services or activities.

 

[jacksonbrown]

I have not implied the found and interviewed servicemen/women you, John and Tom located and spoke to after the investigation actively began in June, 2012. After 43 years, less than a handful might have remembered him, they weren't sure,he was there one month. I would not nor did I consider any of them as a poi I wasn't referring to them.

In a previous post you said "then someone other than Navy or Marine Corp sent them to the address on his drivers license". In addition to " In what way have I excluded anyone whether or not a serviceman as a poi". I'd would have to read every post you wrote since 2010 to see if you said you excluded them. I think you did.

What makes you think either branch of the military would not have sent them home? I DO include them as possible persons of interest along with many others.

In what way have I excluded anyone (whether or not a serviceman) as a person of interest?

I compiled a large list of Navy and Marine Corps personnel who had been attached to the Philadelphia Naval Hospital in October and November 1968, which I turned over to Tom and John. I also assisted them in locating many of them.

I wouldn't call any of them "persons of interest" in the legal sense of the term, but there were some who provided context and useful information.

 

[Richard]

The terms "suspect" and "person of interest" are only assigned or applied to individuals by the agency or department which has legal jurisdiction over a case investigation. These terms are used carefully and sparingly by law enforcement agencies.

The terms are always applied to individual persons and never to organizations or groups of persons. For example, the US Navy or US Marine Corps could not be a "person of interest".

Very often when someone is designated a "suspect" it is when charges have been filed or are imminent.

A "person of interest" could be considered a somewhat lower level than suspect, such as a material witness, accomplice, etc. But LE would be able to back up a POI designation with legal evidence.

It is not for the average person who writes about a case to declare or designate someone a suspect or a person of interest. Nor would it be appropriate to state unequivocally that someone is NOT one.

To be on the safe side when writing, terms like "possible" or "potential" or "considered" might be used to preceed the words "suspect" or "poi" when discussing a case and associated persons.

Of course, the above is just my own opinion and practice.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The Philadelphia Naval Shipyard had a PX. Corporal Corriveau may have had to walk a few hundred yards or less to get to it.

​

 

[jacksonbrown]

I am not going to engage with you again.

 

[jacksonbrown]

The Philadelphia Naval Shipyard had a PX. Corporal Corriveau may have had to walk a few hundred yards or less to get to it.

​

To get what J. J. , a coat

 

[J. J. in Phila]

To get what J. J. , a coat

To get anything.

Someone had suggested using a PX in Willow Grove. Corporal Corriveau would not need to go that far to get to one.

 

[Richard]

To get anything.

Someone had suggested using a PX in Willow Grove. Corporal Corriveau would not need to go that far to get to one.

True. A military base is like a city in many ways, with a base exchange, commissary, gas station, theater, bank, clubs, package store, thrift store, auto and hobby shop, gym, uniform shop, shuttle transportation to other bases, etc.

 

[jacksonbrown]

To get anything.

Someone had suggested using a PX in Willow Grove. Corporal Corriveau would not need to go that far to get to one.

Just a thought... I checked the weather in Methuen for the night he traveled to PNH, It was 29°. I would think he would have had a coat with him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a thought... I checked the weather in Methuen for the night he traveled to PNH, It was 29°. I would think he would have had a coat with him.

He should have been issued a winter coat and it would not be a pea coat.

 

[jacksonbrown]

He should have been issued a winter coat and it would not be a pea coat.

Exactly, so we could assume, no peacoat. I think it unlikely he would buy one at the px at Willow Grove. Which BTW didn't get mentioned. Coatsville also had a VA hospital, but I don't think it would have been an option for an active marine.