PA PA - District Attorney Ray Gricar Mysteriously Disappeared - Bellefonte 15 April 2005 #18

[J. J. in Phila]

If Ray did a walkaway, this was planned and well executed. He had to have had help, by a person or people he fully trusted. If he went out of the country, that would mean a fake ID, passport, and identity. If a private plane and not commercial, the pilot isn't talking either.
Were rental car companies ever checked out?

Or a real passport. RFG was eligible for dual citizenship with Slovenia. He could have gotten citizenship and used a real passport. He could even cross the border into Canada and leave from there.

He either could have purchased a car, knowing that it would take longer for the registration to be processed or had a "helper" make a straw purchase or rental.

RFG would have had to use a credit card to rent a car, and LE did check his credit cards.

 

[MandaT]

BTW, Welcome MandaT

Thank you, J.J.

I'm glad to be here, well, as glad as a person can be to join a site about missing persons, deceased persons, and murderers. I have reached the age where I have to take it in ' small doses' or become totally emotionally overwhelmed. Not sure if others sometimes feel this way.

I really like the photo of D.A. Gricar you've chosen. It's full of dignity, as I believe he was in his career.

 

[Black Diamond]

IF Ray did return to the SOS on Saturday, that's odd to me. Why return to that area knowing that you never came home and probably are considered " missing" at this point by loved ones? If it was foul play, I can't see anyone with bad intentions allowing Ray to return to that area..doesn't make much sense. If the sightings were correct, where and what was Ray doing Fri night?

If he was indeed there Saturday, the chance of a walkaway with a lover skyrockets. I believe the odds of a male lover are higher than female. It fits better with him wanting to run away with someone and hide it from the world. However, the Saturday sightings seem sketchy and could be mistaken identification, just like all (or most?) of the post disappearance sightings have been.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If he was indeed there Saturday, the chance of a walkaway with a lover skyrockets. I believe the odds of a male lover are higher than female. It fits better with him wanting to run away with someone and hide it from the world. However, the Saturday sightings seem sketchy and could be mistaken identification, just like all (or most?) of the post disappearance sightings have been.

I have never seen anything that would point to RFG being gay or bisexual.

No, it would not lower them. RFG could have wanted to be seen there, especially, if he spent the evening in Centre County.

 

[MandaT]

Or a real passport. RFG was eligible for dual citizenship with Slovenia. He could have gotten citizenship and used a real passport. He could even cross the border into Canada and leave from there.

Out of all the possibilities ever discussed, the Slovenian one is my personal favorite because he would have family already there who loved him. They also could have been the recipients of the supposed missing savings to keep for him until he arrived there. He would know the culture and the customs. My hope is that he found a truly lovely Slovenian wife and has enjoyed being that stay at home dad to a second family, with his extended older relatives ( and maybe cousins not older). He didn't shirk any responsibilities or fail to be a gentleman in any way that I can think of in leaving. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I truly hope this is how things went and that he's had a super happy and unbothered life.

 

[Black Diamond]

He didn't shirk any responsibilities or fail to be a gentleman in any way that I can think of in leaving.

Except that: He abandoned his elected position as DA. Countless taxpayer money was spent investigating his disappearance. People put their lives at risk searching the river and other places. He left a daughter not knowing. He left his girlfriend heartbroken. He left nephews, in-laws, and friends not knowing. All those people have had to deal with constant headaches of reporters bothering them, online conjecture about their involvement, public knowledge of their lives, etc. He had to be declared legally dead.

So, I think the exact opposite as you. If he walked away and hid in Slovenia he’s a coward that caused a lot of problems and heartache for a lot of people.

 

[Betty P]

Thank you, J.J.

I'm glad to be here, well, as glad as a person can be to join a site about missing persons, deceased persons, and murderers. I have reached the age where I have to take it in ' small doses' or become totally emotionally overwhelmed. Not sure if others sometimes feel this way.

I really like the photo of D.A. Gricar you've chosen. It's full of dignity, as I believe he was in his career.

Yes, Welcome!

 

[Black Diamond]

I have never seen anything that would point to RFG being gay or bisexual.

No, it would not lower them. RFG could have wanted to be seen there, especially, if he spent the evening in Centre County.

I haven’t seen any evidence of him being gay / bi either. It is possible though, and it would not be inordinately for a person of his position to keep it secret from the public. 20 years ago, even more so, as acceptance of gays was not where it is today.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Except that: He abandoned his elected position as DA. Countless taxpayer money was spent investigating his disappearance. People put their lives at risk searching the river and other places. He left a daughter not knowing. He left his girlfriend heartbroken. He left nephews, in-laws, and friends not knowing. All those people have had to deal with constant headaches of reporters bothering them, online conjecture about their involvement, public knowledge of their lives, etc. He had to be declared legally dead.

So, I think the exact opposite as you. If he walked away and hid in Slovenia he’s a coward that caused a lot of problems and heartache for a lot of people.

1. There was no requirement that he continue to serve.

2. He did not ask taxpayers to look for him. In fact, there is no actual evidence of a crime.

3. He provided for his daughter and girlfriend financially, more so that if he had retired an died of natural causes.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I haven’t seen any evidence of him being gay / bi either. It is possible though, and it would not be inordinately for a person of his position to keep it secret from the public. 20 years ago, even more so, as acceptance of gays was not where it is today.

The only person he would have to answer to is PEF. He was not running for reelection. I graduated 20 years before he disappeared and there were plenty of openly gay and lesbian people in the county.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IF Ray did return to the SOS on Saturday, that's odd to me. Why return to that area knowing that you never came home and probably are considered " missing" at this point by loved ones? If it was foul play, I can't see anyone with bad intentions allowing Ray to return to that area..doesn't make much sense. If the sightings were correct, where and what was Ray doing Fri night?

I wanted to address this both in terms of walkaway and foul play.

First, foul play: The most likely scenario in this case is that RFG was planning a romantic encounter. He would meet a woman, possibly the Mystery Woman, and spend the night with her. This was planned; they would get lunch, shop, or just walk around. They were together and something happened.

They had an argument the became physical. Or, RFG fell down a flight of stairs. Or, RFG has a heart attack. Whatever happens, the woman, hides the body. Maybe she is married and doesn't want her husband to know. Maybe she is or was a defendant, a key witness, or a relative of either, and she is worried about the effect. So, she hides the body.

Second, walkaway: The helper lives in Centre County (which is very likely if there is a helper). The helper purchases a car and drives to Lewisburg on 4/15/05. Helper gives it to RFG, but the helper is now 50+ miles from home. RFG knows that the Mini Cooper and possibly the laptop will be found in Lewisburg and that he was seen on the same day; he has to take the helper back to Centre County, but he wants to appear that he was in Lewisburg.

RFG does not want to draw attention to this helper and have LE show up and ask the neighbors if they saw him with the helper. So, he drives the helper back to the helper's house and spends the night. He drives back to Lewisburg on 4/16 and makes sure he is seen, on foot, in the SoS. Then he gets back into the car helper brought the day before, and drives off.

Third, the witnesses are wrong: Bennett is a respected business owner with a degree from the Wharton School at Penn. He is credible, but that does mean that he, or his two employees are right.

At least 6 people saw him in Lewisburg, some in the Mini and in the lot, on the afternoon of 4/15. They are independent, i.e. they were unknown to each other, but the corroborated what some of the others were seeing. Plus, the physical evidence, the Mini and his scent in the parking lot, could have been in place from 4/15. There is not that evidence for RFG being in the SoS on 4/16.

 

[MandaT]

I wanted to address this both in terms of walkaway and foul play.

First, foul play: The most likely scenario in this case is that RFG was planning a romantic encounter. He would meet a woman, possibly the Mystery Woman, and spend the night with her. This was planned; they would get lunch, shop, or just walk around. They were together and something happened.

They had an argument the became physical. Or, RFG fell down a flight of stairs. Or, RFG has a heart attack. Whatever happens, the woman, hides the body. Maybe she is married and doesn't want her husband to know. Maybe she is or was a defendant, a key witness, or a relative of either, and she is worried about the effect. So, she hides the body.

Second, walkaway: The helper lives in Centre County (which is very likely if there is a helper). The helper purchases a car and drives to Lewisburg on 4/15/05. Helper gives it to RFG, but the helper is now 50+ miles from home. RFG knows that the Mini Cooper and possibly the laptop will be found in Lewisburg and that he was seen on the same day; he has to take the helper back to Centre County, but he wants to appear that he was in Lewisburg.

RFG does not want to draw attention to this helper and have LE show up and ask the neighbors if they saw him with the helper. So, he drives the helper back to the helper's house and spends the night. He drives back to Lewisburg on 4/16 and makes sure he is seen, on foot, in the SoS. Then he gets back into the car helper brought the day before, and drives off.

Third, the witnesses are wrong: Bennett is a respected business owner with a degree from the Wharton School at Penn. He is credible, but that does mean that he, or his two employees are right.

At least 6 people saw him in Lewisburg, some in the Mini and in the lot, on the afternoon of 4/15. They are independent, i.e. they were unknown to each other, but the corroborated what some of the others were seeing. Plus, the physical evidence, the Mini and his scent in the parking lot, could have been in place from 4/15. There is not that evidence for RFG being in the SoS on 4/16.

He was what I'd consider to be a medium sized man. How would an unknown lady love who murdered him or otherwise was a witness to his death possibly move him, probably more than once unless he was in a vehicle at the time of the fatal event?
Even if he was dating a 20 y, o. with bodybuilding as a hobby, it would be extremely difficult to move and hide about 160-170 pounds of dead weight. I had to move comatose persons in my career, and I worked out regularly. I was tallish, on the side of thin, but with good muscles, and I could lift my body weight but not much more. Thus, around 120 pounds deadlift max in reps. Most women just don't have the upper body strength to move a body and not leave marks, a trail, something. There is adrenalin, but there's also intense fear, remorse and shame if the psychology is normal. One feeling can almost cancel out the opposite reaction. That's about as graphic as I can get. Makes me sick to think about and I'm really only doing it for your scenario.

Also, where would he likely be " hidden" and not found for 20 solid years now? Maybe not intact due to all the flooding PA has fairly often, but bones scattered by animals, a spreading stain on a ceiling below an attic, something else leading to discovery?

It's similar to the suicide argument. One can't really " hide" completely without extraordinary planning and then kill themselves. It used to be called " the third hand" theory when I was assisting LE with complex unwitnessed death scenes.

I believe he did have a helper if he left Lewisburg alive, I hope he did both, of course. There is no dishonor in starting a new life without the comimission of a crime! ( Echoing what you posted above about Slovenia being a destination).

I've never read anything that pointed strongly to suicide. I've tried to imagine it, but nope.

I agree with you that the witnesses on the 16th may have had faulty memories because they did see him on the 15th. Also, he was known to some of the shop owners and vendors. I would likely remember him after seeing him a few times.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

WJAC (Johnstown) story: What happened to Ray Gricar? Exploring Centre County's missing DA mystery, 20 years later

 

[J. J. in Phila]

WATM (Johnstown): 20 Year Old Ray Gricar Mystery - ABC23

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He was what I'd consider to be a medium sized man. How would an unknown lady love who murdered him or otherwise was a witness to his death possibly move him, probably more than once unless he was in a vehicle at the time of the fatal event?
Even if he was dating a 20 y, o. with bodybuilding as a hobby, it would be extremely difficult to move and hide about 160-170 pounds of dead weight. I had to move comatose persons in my career, and I worked out regularly. I was tallish, on the side of thin, but with good muscles, and I could lift my body weight but not much more. Thus, around 120 pounds deadlift max in reps. Most women just don't have the upper body strength to move a body and not leave marks, a trail, something. There is adrenalin, but there's also intense fear, remorse and shame if the psychology is normal. One feeling can almost cancel out the opposite reaction. That's about as graphic as I can get. Makes me sick to think about and I'm really only doing it for your scenario.

Also, where would he likely be " hidden" and not found for 20 solid years now? Maybe not intact due to all the flooding PA has fairly often, but bones scattered by animals, a spreading stain on a ceiling below an attic, something else leading to discovery?

This is being snipped just for emphasis. Some of this might be a bit graphic as well.

What I was thinking would be that the RFG and the woman met is Lewisburg and went to what was basically a weekend cottage or a more rural home. While it would be difficult to bury a body in someone's yard in Lewisburg, it would not be in a rural area, where there would be no observation. Further, the mover would not have to worry about being gentle with a dead body; she could drag or roll it. It could be buried under a garden or buried next to the cottage and cement patio placed over it later.

I have also pointed out that there are a lot of disused wells in rural areas. Someone could drop a body into one and then have the well plugged.

As to hiding your own body, there was an example of a man from Lewisburg who did kill himself by hanging himself in the woods north of the prison. His remains were discovered a bit under a year later. It is very unlikely that RFG could have hidden his body so well that it could not be found in 20 year

 

[Black Diamond]

1. There was no requirement that he continue to serve.

2. He did not ask taxpayers to look for him. In fact, there is no actual evidence of a crime.

3. He provided for his daughter and girlfriend financially, more so that if he had retired an died of natural causes.

Yes, all cowardly and morally wrong.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, all cowardly and morally wrong.

No, in fact I would argue #3 is quite noble.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Weaver is leaning to suicide. He thinks the chances of murder were "minimal."

 

[Betty P]

WATM (Johnstown): 20 Year Old Ray Gricar Mystery - ABC23

A $5,000 reward isn't very much, JMO.

 

[minazoe]

A $5,000 reward isn't very much, JMO.

they never really did much of anything...almost like it's no thang. mOO